New Reports page (beta)

[Afforess]

Afforess, what you fail to understand is that raiders *need* to use the same old dirty puppets that they use every few days for the last year, and that these puppets necessarily launch from the same ol' region that updates somewhere near the end of update (but not as near as all of the major defender groups--I mean, that would be work!). Anything else would require some critical thinking skills rather than plugging some in to a calculator and pressing the move button. This is way too much to ask from this community.

This shift is like the horse and buggy to the combustion engine, or candle to electricity. Yes, it sucks for the candlemakers. There will be new winners and losers. There is no "going back", there is only forward and onward. Raiders and Defenders alike should be embracing the future of gameplay, or else they will be dragged kicking and screaming into the future regardless.

Henri Matisse - imagine for a moment that I built this tool for Unibot & Co and never publically shared any knowledge of it. Defenders would start perfectly responding to and preventing raids. Is that what you would prefer? It is better than it is all in the open and public.

[Henri Matisse]

Are you joking? If you told the UDL it would leak to the raider world in a matter of months, at the most.

Of GP, you clearly know nothing.

Please stop patting yourself on the back. A handful of raiders can simply use my method and clog, clog, clog, and clog your precious dossier until it becomes frivolous.

Or maybe we'll have more fun following the "defender" invader game, you know, where you go around the world rigging elections.

Either way, if you think you have the invading game on their heels, you don't.

I throw my underwear at you.

[Afforess]

Either way, if you think you have the invading game on their heels, you don't.

I have never made that assertion. I think the opposite is true.

[Sedgistan]

Or maybe you could f*** off and give a little ground, keep everything else and leave endorsements - the bread and butter of GP - alone.

*** 1 day ban for flaming *** - use the time to cool off. When you come back, focus on attacking Afforess's arguments rather than Afforess.

[Mallorea and Riva]

As far as everything else, regarding your statements about how scripts already made all of this possible, that the super dossier made all of this possible, etc: that is my point. You extend the WA happenings, then you extend them to absurd lengths, then you create super dossiers, and now this. I understand that we are on an unstoppable march towards automated gameplay, but don't expect me to be happy about it.

I understand that completely, but I think the way to prevent "automated gameplay" is to make success less reliant on being overlooked by your opponents. (There are several things we can do along these lines and several already on the drawing board.)

I am intimately aware of all of the summit change, and precisely zero of them will do anything to mitigate this concern. The only ones in which raiders have been thrown a bone are the influence in feeder/sinker and annexation changes. The rest of those changes are advantageous solely to defenders (particularly the reformation proposal, which essentially makes raider larger regions pointless). Tell us that stealth is not the answer and then providing a list of "solutions" which in no way actually address update ability (and which actually make updates more difficult upon raiders such as the inability to trigger) is absurd.

Because we no longer live in a script-free world; we have to deal with the fact that bots crawl the site pretty much constantly, and collect everything they find. If we ignore that--if we veto a Reports page because we want it to remain hard to collate that information--then all we do is widen the divide between the people with scripts and people without. That actually encourages the shift to scripts and tools.

So the choices are to either ban scripts, or make everything public. There aren't any other choices that I can see, because every single time you make more information public, it results in the development of newer and more powerful scripts. Making automated gameplay a public feature is not better than only a few players having it.

I don't believe we can stop the data-gathering, no matter what rules we make. For all the criticism Afforess gets, he's often only doing in public and within the rules what others have done privately and/or illegally. I have to track down and block illegal scripts, and it's painful and time-consuming and getting worse and worse. If it's possible today to publish information on the site but hide it from bots, it's not going to be possible for much longer.

So it sounds like you're experiencing the same pains that the invasion game used to give to the moderators. I don't know if there is an easy solution such as influence that could automate the regulation process for you, but when mods struggled with preventing griefing the answer certainly wasn't "well this sucks, rather than writing an anti griefing ruleset or developing a permanent solution we'll just allow it". You managed to prevent GR from utilizing an automove script (for now), but I recognize that a ban on scripts relating to R/D isn't going to happen. For all my arguing I've seen that once a feature like this is added, it's here to stay and the direction R/D is being pushed is only being accelerated by admin action.

But obviously stealth is an important part of the invasion game today, and the new Reports page makes life difficult. In particular it helps the casual defender, who couldn't be bothered figuring out scripts and tools, but will use this. I am aware of that, and I am a supporter of balance in the invasion game.

You didn't need scripts and tools to spot. I did it just fine with the old dossier and the old WA Reports page. The defenders got out of the game what they put into it. Effort was equated with success. The difficulty level on the game is being cranked down as low as possible to "level the playing field" between those with scripts (or those who put in the effort and play hard) and those who don't.

I encourage all to join me in my quest to clog the endorsement report in protest of this overbearing aggression.

I encourage you all to remember that spam is bad, and it will be dealt with accordingly. And in this case, aggressively if necessary, to anyone engaging in deliberate actions to screw with the game, clog any of the processes, or otherwise create problems in order to try and get their way in an argument. Thanks.

Certainly not looking to justify that one's choice of tone or tactic, but this actually does raise a relevant question: will raiders be allowed to attempt to "clear" the reports page during update? (Assuming it is ever made such that it isn't an infinite scroll).

[Todlichebujoku]

It seems the fix for the

Following new legislation in Klf, the Todlichebujoku Automotive Racing Series draws millions of spectators annually while those near the tracks complain about the noise"

bug has resulted in:

1 minutes ago: Following new legislation in Klf, the [[NAME]] Automotive Racing Series draws millions of spectators annually while those near the tracks complain about the noise

Not to mention the "1 minutes ago" typo, which isn't present on the nation page.

[Gest]

I understand that completely, but I think the way to prevent "automated gameplay" is to make success less reliant on being overlooked by your opponents. (There are several things we can do along these lines and several already on the drawing board.)

I am intimately aware of all of the summit change, and precisely zero of them will do anything to mitigate this concern. The only ones in which raiders have been thrown a bone are the influence in feeder/sinker and annexation changes. The rest of those changes are advantageous solely to defenders (particularly the reformation proposal, which essentially makes raider larger regions pointless). Tell us that stealth is not the answer and then providing a list of "solutions" which in no way actually address update ability (and which actually make updates more difficult upon raiders such as the inability to trigger) is absurd.

The annex* doesn't even qualify as a bone and the influence change is good for coups only. It would be nice if we got something during this Defender Christmas. Balance** and all that jazz.

*Don't forget that the point of the annex was to give raider's a goal. Their original goal was for it to be a glorified embassy. Apparently toothlessness is the main objective.

** Perhaps the admins by balance only mean balance between the casual and the experienced player. If the overall balance leans defender I'm sure the moderators won't lose much sleep over such an unfortunate occurrence.

[Mahaj]

Also: does anything ever get scrolled off the page, or no?

Not at the moment, but it probably should.

I don't think it should.

It doesn't need to be, it doesn't slow things down, and it lets people look back on information if they want to.

[Mahaj]

I am intimately aware of all of the summit change, and precisely zero of them will do anything to mitigate this concern. The only ones in which raiders have been thrown a bone are the influence in feeder/sinker and annexation changes. The rest of those changes are advantageous solely to defenders (particularly the reformation proposal, which essentially makes raider larger regions pointless). Tell us that stealth is not the answer and then providing a list of "solutions" which in no way actually address update ability (and which actually make updates more difficult upon raiders such as the inability to trigger) is absurd.

The annex* doesn't even qualify as a bone and the influence change is good for coups only. It would be nice if we got something during this Defender Christmas. Balance** and all that jazz.

*Don't forget that the point of the annex was to give raider's a goal. Their original goal was for it to be a glorified embassy. Apparently toothlessness is the main objective.

** Perhaps the admins by balance only mean balance between the casual and the experienced player. If the overall balance leans defender I'm sure the moderators won't lose much sleep over such an unfortunate occurrence.

I find it incredibly funny that you are worried about the *possibility* of the game being balanced towards defenders (which by the way the summit doesn't cause), but you ignore the *current reality* of the game being balanced towards invaders.

[Milograd]

Afforess recently approached me about creating a tool that would list every nation in a region with a "kick" button next to their names in order of least influence to most, and said he would do so if I gave him all my information on influence formulas.

It's the future, guys! The next feeder coup will be delightfully futuristic. The information is already there for everyone.

EDIT: Point being, there ought to be a line in the sand.

[The Republic of Lanos]

The shroud of regular R/D has fallen. Begun the Coding Wars has.

In relevance, I kinda like the new page but I don't see a real need for it so far.

[Gest]

I find it incredibly funny that you are worried about the *possibility* of the game being balanced towards defenders (which by the way the summit doesn't cause)

Monsieur I'm biased but I make no phony claim to objectivity. Go R! You won't see me pretend to be objective with such ridiculous arguments like: Liberations are hard to pass and therefore Reformations will be super hard to pass. Reformations will pass easily. You know it. I know it. The Pope probably knows it but you still try to play it off like it's not really that favorable to your side.

The balance I want is more stuff to come to the R side if the D's are going to get all these goodies at once.

[Afforess]

Afforess recently approached me about creating a tool that would list every nation in a region with a "kick" button next to their names in order of least influence to most, and said he would do so if I gave him all my information on influence formulas.

It's the future, guys! The next feeder coup will be delightfully futuristic. The information is already there for everyone.

EDIT: Point being, there ought to be a line in the sand.

Nope, Lies. YOU approached me, and I said I was capable of writing a tool but not interested. i did offer to write a tool in exchange for the information. I don't have any interest in it myself. I'll grab chat logs if you continue to lie.

[Lun Noir]

Maybe I'm an extreme minority, but while I realize 'raiding' is a technical possibility with the way the game is designed, it really does come across as griefing. I highly doubt that it was the intended result of implementing something like the endorsement / delegate system.
Even looking to the disrespectful and hostile tone that some of the larger raiding factions, and some of the more vocal raiders have makes it pretty clear that this aspect of gameplay appeals largely (but not exclusively) to those who get off on kicking the sandcastles that other people have built. And there's no 'opt in/out' for the R/D game.

In essence, and again I might be missing something, 'raiding' amounts to exploitation of the current game mechanics. If, indeed, reporting makes it more difficult to pull off a successful raid, then raiders simply need to develop more intricate exploits. And, as history in any game has shown, people who like to break other people's stuff will always find a way to do it.

Anyway... based on the zealotry surrounding the raiding game, I somewhat expect to be flamed out from this post. So let me just say that I didn't write this to piss anyone off. I just wanted to voice the opinion from someone who does just come here for the pseudo-political game and for RP.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Maybe I'm an extreme minority, but while I realize 'raiding' is a technical possibility with the way the game is designed, it really does come across as griefing. I highly doubt that it was the intended result of implementing something like the endorsement / delegate system.
Even looking to the disrespectful and hostile tone that some of the larger raiding factions, and some of the more vocal raiders have makes it pretty clear that this aspect of gameplay appeals largely (but not exclusively) to those who get off on kicking the sandcastles that other people have built. And there's no 'opt in/out' for the R/D game.

In essence, and again I might be missing something, 'raiding' amounts to exploitation of the current game mechanics. If, indeed, reporting makes it more difficult to pull off a successful raid, then raiders simply need to develop more intricate exploits. And, as history in any game has shown, people who like to break other people's stuff will always find a way to do it.

Anyway... based on the zealotry surrounding the raiding game, I somewhat expect to be flamed out from this post. So let me just say that I didn't write this to piss anyone off. I just wanted to voice the opinion from someone who does just come here for the pseudo-political game and for RP.

Neither the time nor the place for this.

[Afforess]

Neither the time nor the place for this.

Nonsense, this is the right place and right time.

[Mallorea and Riva]

Neither the time nor the place for this.

Nonsense, this is the right place and right time.

Stop encouraging players to push and break rules. This thread is not about debating whether raiding should be allowed. Make your own thread about it.

[Lun Noir]

Stop encouraging players to push and break rules.

Pushing the limits of rules is the very nature of raiding/ invading...

Anyway, I wasn't trying to state that it shouldn't happen at all. Just wanted to remind everyone that, for at least some of the playerbase, the D/R metagame is... not fun, and not what we think NationStates is really about.

Anyway... yeah, it's not really what this thread is about so... that's the last I'll say in here. Although similarly, this thread isn't a soap box to talk about promoting raiding, either, so hopefully that ceases as well.

The thread ultimately is about the very useful reporting that violet has produced, which I enjoy perusing mainly to see what my regional neighbors are doing and such.

[[violet]]

Because we no longer live in a script-free world; we have to deal with the fact that bots crawl the site pretty much constantly, and collect everything they find. If we ignore that--if we veto a Reports page because we want it to remain hard to collate that information--then all we do is widen the divide between the people with scripts and people without. That actually encourages the shift to scripts and tools.

So the choices are to either ban scripts, or make everything public. There aren't any other choices that I can see, because every single time you make more information public, it results in the development of newer and more powerful scripts.

I'm not making more information public. Happenings have been public for ten years. What the scripts & bots are doing is making that information easier to access.

It is flat-out impossible to "ban scripts."

[Mallorea and Riva]

Stop encouraging players to push and break rules.

Pushing the limits of rules is the very nature of raiding/ invading...

No longer correct, and again, not the time or the place.

So the choices are to either ban scripts, or make everything public. There aren't any other choices that I can see, because every single time you make more information public, it results in the development of newer and more powerful scripts.

I'm not making more information public. Happenings have been public for ten years. What the scripts & bots are doing is making that information easier to access.

It is flat-out impossible to "ban scripts."

You are making more information public. The general NS public does not know how to effectively access this information. If that wasn't true, then you wouldn't have needed to make this change, because everyone would have had it already. You say it is impossible to ban scripts, yet you've already done that in cases. You've restricted some types of scripts, and outright banned others. You simply have an entirely different concept of how R/D should work, and this isn't the first time that I've tried to draw your attention to that. In the link I provided you state that:

...the playing field between scripters and non-scripters is not level. People should not require scripts to play R/D properly.

The problem that you are exacerbating is that every single time you make a change like this, it results in a script being written. You do not want the scripters to have an advantage, but rather than remove the ability of users to utilize certain scripts you have instead just eventually made it a "feature". I know Afforess is touting that he will make a prediction script to forecast raider activity, will that then be made public? Is there an end to it? Because your current methodology for dealing with this problem has thus far been entirely broken.

[Afforess]

Pushing the limits of rules is the very nature of raiding/ invading...

No longer correct, and again, not the time or the place.

It is extremely childish to dismiss arguments because you find them uncomfortable, it is growing clear to me that you refuse to listen to any reason.

The problem that you are exacerbating is that every single time you make a change like this, it results in a script being written. You do not want the scripters to have an advantage, but rather than remove the ability of users to utilize certain scripts you have instead just eventually made it a "feature". I know Afforess is touting that he will make a prediction script to forecast raider activity, will that then be made public? Is there an end to it? Because your current methodology for dealing with this problem has thus far been entirely broken.

Yes, and it only will work because Raiders have made my job so easy. You guys stand out like a sore thumb. Capitalist Paradise spotted a raid miles in advance because every stupid raider did exactly the same thing over and over. You guys have really lost your edge.

[The Most Glorious Hack]

You are making more information public. The general NS public does not know how to effectively access this information.

These two statements don't match. Addressing ease of access isn't making more information public; it's making it easier to access the same information.

LexisNexis doesn't provide members with more information than I can get; all its data are public records. It just puts them into an easily accessible database.

[Mallorea and Riva]

The problem that you are exacerbating is that every single time you make a change like this, it results in a script being written. You do not want the scripters to have an advantage, but rather than remove the ability of users to utilize certain scripts you have instead just eventually made it a "feature". I know Afforess is touting that he will make a prediction script to forecast raider activity, will that then be made public? Is there an end to it? Because your current methodology for dealing with this problem has thus far been entirely broken.

Yes, and it only will work because Raiders have made my job so easy. You guys stand out like a sore thumb. Capitalist Paradise spotted a raid miles in advance because every stupid raider did exactly the same thing over and over. You guys have really lost your edge.

Yeah the tag raids last night? Those are a little different. Learn some of the complexities of R/D before you argue about the implications that a tech change would have on R/D.

You are making more information public. The general NS public does not know how to effectively access this information.

These two statements don't match. Addressing ease of access isn't making more information public; it's making it easier to access the same information.

LexisNexis doesn't provide members with more information than I can get; all its data are public records. It just puts them into an easily accessible database.

You're right, I phrased that poorly. My main point still stands, however.

[Katganistan]

Remember that THIS thread is about THE NEW REPORTS PAGE.

Thank you.

[Henri Matisse]

You are making more information public. The general NS public does not know how to effectively access this information.

These two statements don't match. Addressing ease of access isn't making more information public; it's making it easier to access the same information.

LexisNexis doesn't provide members with more information than I can get; all its data are public records. It just puts them into an easily accessible database.

This is a semantic argument that ignores the crux of Mallorea's point.

If the creation and utilization of these scripts with or without ADMIN sanction is to be seen as inevitable, and therefore inexorable, then let us not have the fruits of their creation be borne all on one tree.

For indeed, it would not be paranoia for any raider, invader, or romantic saboteur to consider these most recent technical developments by ADMIN as evidence of their predilection for those of the defender stripe. Let us not pretend there is any equity in this sanction of Afforess' newest gadget, the advantage is clearly to the defender side - the side which endorses lethargy and impudence, for they will defend any fort simply for being a fort, with no regard for its quality, state, or character.

It has been suggested here that raiding is merely a cheap trick, a gimmick. I reject that outright, and say that raiding is a manifestation - crude as it may be - of a truth that the technophiles resent - that life is the most fragile thing of all.

This is Raiding Gentleman, Something In The Air

Raiding is only reduced to its most mongol barbarity by these changes, the most clandestine revolutionary will now have another headwind to torment him. Why not indeed, simply opt for tag-raiding, as encouraged by the defenders and these technical changes alike?

Is revolution to be outlawed? Is romance to be found in a straitjacket?

Romeo, Romeo, wherefore art thou Romeo?

Oops, Romeo has been accosted by Afforess' secret police, who were intercepting his love letters, as no deviant behavior will be tolerated!

If there is to be no threat of invasion there is no impetus for alliance, strength becomes a needless excess rather than a virtue.

This reports page cripples a dualism that is essential to humanity - strength and fragility, pleasure and pain, life and death. To sanction scripts which engorge the defenders while leaving those true invaders to starve, it would be to make NationStates not a nation simulator, but a most abhorrent artifice in which there is no fragility, a world cast only in stone.

Let us not arm one while mauling the other.

Empower the invader to disrupt Afforess' aggression. Scripts, my method in particular, can be used to clog the reports page as our ancestors cleared the happenings. This should be explicitly sanctioned by ADMIN, as I have already approached several with this idea who fear they will be punished by ADMIN.

And if this clog is not enough to spur a détente, to have Afforess and ADMIN alike reconsider, then why not, following the logic of your argument as to the inevitable and inexorable nature of these scripts, simply legalize everything? Let us see how the defenders like it then, perhaps?

If your logic is one of script makes right, then be consistent. If defenders can now track all of us with this kind of lazy impunity, why must the invader manually create puppets, move regions, grant endorsements, and ban liberators? Tracking invaders is such boring tripe for defenders and feederites alike, and so they are catered to? Is the invader side not to be satisfied?

Or do you not care for the dualism I have outlined at all? Would you have our feeder regimes and founderless regions live on forever, interrupted only by internal squabblings that do nothing to address the sick undergrowth? Gameplay absent threat of invasion or revolution is nothing more than a twisted fantasy. If script makes right, then open the gates of Hades.

But for now at least, I would ask all raiders to join me in protest, let us clog this reports page.

I ask ADMIN not to criminalize this endeavor.