UK Politics Thread: The Mandelson Effect

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The idea that British towns and cities would've been better off under the nazi yoke, with all the Jews, undesireables and freethinkers having all been consigned to the gas chambers or shot by Einsatzgruppen... or that fighting the nazis was somehow worthless an endeavour just because British governments have been fucking up Britain since Thatcher...
These are certainly "opinions"...

What's next? "Actually the Holocaust wasn't that bad"?

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

You know you can just say something like "oh dear, I didn't realise what you were alluding to and now I've made myself look a bit silly. I think I'll go away and reflect on why I think explicitly and earnestly calling for violence against minorities is valid free speech but calling Jeremy Vine a 'bike nonce' merits a criminal conviction, and maybe I'll discover something about myself, and what kind of person I regard as legitimate people worthy of protection and whom I do not."

That is genuinely something that will earn you a lot more respect from most the people in this thread than what you've just written.

Since when did I say eitherall merits or does not merit a criminal conviction?

Here:

Would love to see members of our political establishment and commentariat and maybe a police force or two make statements about how we shouldn't be criminalising this sort of thing. The opinion of a certain right-wing lickspittle cunt would, for once, be especially welcome.

This is a great example of freedom of speech means you also face the consquences for grossly offensive speech.
Also trying to use "mah freedom of speech" argument like this gives ammo to destory freedom of speech.
Just dont be an offensive twat its not that hard.

There is no way for a reasonable person to read that post except as you defending the consequences Barton faced. And those consequences were a criminal conviction.

Vine separately sued Barton for defamation, and possibly others did, but the linked article you were replying to is about a criminal case.

[Celritannia]

“The sacrifice wasn't worth the result that it is now.” [hosts talk] “Well, what we fought for was our freedom; we fought for it, even now it's a darn sight worse than what it was when I fought for it.”

Hes correct frankly.
What freedoms?
What they fought for has been destroyed and twisted.
What it meant to be british and the unity and high trust society that existed in those years is long gone.
Replaced by a society thats divided on its history, divided on what being british even is and divided on if the flag these men fought and died for is rascist.
Destroyed by the culture wars and the rest was destroyed by politicians.
Freedom of speech a key ideal of britain has been slowly destroyed replaced by authoritarianism and censorship.

The triumphs of britain and its people have been disgraced by those who have never had to deal with hardship, never had to deal with worrying if you would wake up to a home or even manage to make it over another hill.
No wonder these men feel what they fought for was for nought.
We may not be under the yoke of nazism but we are under the yoke of authoritarianism and social collapse

Freedoms haven't been lost, and everything else you are spouting are far right talking points that have lead to division within society, including culture wars. No one cared about trans peoole in the 90s. The right wing has decided to make it an issue in the last decade.

What you are writing here is just idiotic.

[Camtropia]

Hes correct frankly.
What freedoms?
What they fought for has been destroyed and twisted.
What it meant to be british and the unity and high trust society that existed in those years is long gone.
Replaced by a society thats divided on its history, divided on what being british even is and divided on if the flag these men fought and died for is rascist.
Destroyed by the culture wars and the rest was destroyed by politicians.
Freedom of speech a key ideal of britain has been slowly destroyed replaced by authoritarianism and censorship.

The triumphs of britain and its people have been disgraced by those who have never had to deal with hardship, never had to deal with worrying if you would wake up to a home or even manage to make it over another hill.
No wonder these men feel what they fought for was for nought.
We may not be under the yoke of nazism but we are under the yoke of authoritarianism and social collapse

Freedoms haven't been lost, and everything else you are spouting are far right talking points that have lead to division within society, including culture wars. No one cared about trans peoole in the 90s. The right wing has decided to make it an issue in the last decade.

What you are writing here is just idiotic.

Anti-protest laws? (e.g. some Just Stop Oil protestors spent longer in jail than sex offenders, and I seem to remember some people at the Coronation were arrested for carrying locks that could be used to lock themselves to something). Non-crime hate incidents? Arresting people for posting mean stuff on the internet? The Online Safety Act? Digital ID?

[Kerwa]

Hes correct frankly.
What freedoms?
What they fought for has been destroyed and twisted.
What it meant to be british and the unity and high trust society that existed in those years is long gone.
Replaced by a society thats divided on its history, divided on what being british even is and divided on if the flag these men fought and died for is rascist.
Destroyed by the culture wars and the rest was destroyed by politicians.
Freedom of speech a key ideal of britain has been slowly destroyed replaced by authoritarianism and censorship.

The triumphs of britain and its people have been disgraced by those who have never had to deal with hardship, never had to deal with worrying if you would wake up to a home or even manage to make it over another hill.
No wonder these men feel what they fought for was for nought.
We may not be under the yoke of nazism but we are under the yoke of authoritarianism and social collapse

Freedoms haven't been lost, and everything else you are spouting are far right talking points that have lead to division within society, including culture wars. No one cared about trans peoole in the 90s. The right wing has decided to make it an issue in the last decade.

What you are writing here is just idiotic.

Britain is a lot more authoritarian than it was in the 80s. Even Darcus Howe was appalled by the treatment of people in the post-industrial north, and he doesn’t even like white people.

[Platypus Bureaucracy]

Hes correct frankly.
What freedoms?
What they fought for has been destroyed and twisted.
What it meant to be british and the unity and high trust society that existed in those years is long gone.
Replaced by a society thats divided on its history, divided on what being british even is and divided on if the flag these men fought and died for is rascist.
Destroyed by the culture wars and the rest was destroyed by politicians.
Freedom of speech a key ideal of britain has been slowly destroyed replaced by authoritarianism and censorship.

The triumphs of britain and its people have been disgraced by those who have never had to deal with hardship, never had to deal with worrying if you would wake up to a home or even manage to make it over another hill.
No wonder these men feel what they fought for was for nought.
We may not be under the yoke of nazism but we are under the yoke of authoritarianism and social collapse

Freedoms haven't been lost, and everything else you are spouting are far right talking points that have lead to division within society, including culture wars. No one cared about trans peoole in the 90s. The right wing has decided to make it an issue in the last decade.

What you are writing here is just idiotic.

If you can't fly the Union Jack for neo-Nazi reasons, alas, that means the OG Nazis might as well have won. Are brave boys fought the Nazis to defend our right to be Nazis.

This is particularly silly, of course, because it turns out you very much can fly the Union Jack for neo-Nazi reasons, with the vocal approval of both the government and the opposition. But some people might express disapproval and if it's in an inconvenient location the council might take it down, and even that is unacceptable to people like this. There must be no dissent at all.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

Hes correct frankly.
What freedoms?
What they fought for has been destroyed and twisted.
What it meant to be british and the unity and high trust society that existed in those years is long gone.
Replaced by a society thats divided on its history, divided on what being british even is and divided on if the flag these men fought and died for is rascist.
Destroyed by the culture wars and the rest was destroyed by politicians.
Freedom of speech a key ideal of britain has been slowly destroyed replaced by authoritarianism and censorship.

The triumphs of britain and its people have been disgraced by those who have never had to deal with hardship, never had to deal with worrying if you would wake up to a home or even manage to make it over another hill.
No wonder these men feel what they fought for was for nought.
We may not be under the yoke of nazism but we are under the yoke of authoritarianism and social collapse

Freedoms haven't been lost, and everything else you are spouting are far right talking points that have lead to division within society, including culture wars. No one cared about trans peoole in the 90s. The right wing has decided to make it an issue in the last decade.

What you are writing here is just idiotic.

As already stated by the posters above who have responded to you,
Britain has become far more authoritarian over recent years, be it the arrests for protesting or the online safety act and increasing nanny state over what you can or cant do on the Internet.

What iv said is not "far right talking points" but facts,
Britain has become divided between a radical left that hates britain and increasingly polarised right who are now far more open about being nationalistic that ever before, operation raise the colours began and is continuing due to the vocal minority that scream rascist at the flag and then tear it down from the lampposts because people are somehow offended at their nations flag. (Obviously im not referring to the councils that take them down but private individuals)
Both sides are reacting to each others increasingly more extreme policies and actions.

[Great Britain-and Northern Ireland]

Britain was under little to no threat from Germany, as a matter of fact many peace proposals were sent to Britain, even during the Dunkirk evacuations, when the country was struggling.

Oh, behave — “no threat,” my arse. Tell that to the poor sods hiding in the Tube while London was getting flattened. Those “peace proposals” were worth about as much as a chocolate teapot, mate.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

Freedoms haven't been lost, and everything else you are spouting are far right talking points that have lead to division within society, including culture wars. No one cared about trans peoole in the 90s. The right wing has decided to make it an issue in the last decade.

What you are writing here is just idiotic.

If you can't fly the Union Jack for neo-Nazi reasons, alas, that means the OG Nazis might as well have won. Are brave boys fought the Nazis to defend our right to be Nazis.

This is particularly silly, of course, because it turns out you very much can fly the Union Jack for neo-Nazi reasons, with the vocal approval of both the government and the opposition. But some people might express disapproval and if it's in an inconvenient location the council might take it down, and even that is unacceptable to people like this. There must be no dissent at all.

Ah yes because thats certainly what people are doing and referring to when they call the flag rascist and tear it down from lampposts or yell rascist at a guy who painted the front of his house in the style of the union jack.

Whats there to even dissent about?
Theres no legitimate reason to hate the flag of your own country.
The flag represents the british people so to be offended by a flag that represents you is something ill never understand

[Kerwa]

Freedoms haven't been lost, and everything else you are spouting are far right talking points that have lead to division within society, including culture wars. No one cared about trans peoole in the 90s. The right wing has decided to make it an issue in the last decade.

What you are writing here is just idiotic.

If you can't fly the Union Jack for neo-Nazi reasons, alas, that means the OG Nazis might as well have won. Are brave boys fought the Nazis to defend our right to be Nazis.

This is particularly silly, of course, because it turns out you very much can fly the Union Jack for neo-Nazi reasons, with the vocal approval of both the government and the opposition. But some people might express disapproval and if it's in an inconvenient location the council might take it down, and even that is unacceptable to people like this. There must be no dissent at all.

This is a non sequitur.

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

I'm sure Robert Jenrick will be growing a toothbrush moustache if he thinks there are enough pro-Nazis.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

I'm sure Robert Jenrick will be growing a toothbrush moustache if he thinks there are enough pro-Nazis.

I can tell you dont like Robert Jenrick.
But why?

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

I'm sure Robert Jenrick will be growing a toothbrush moustache if he thinks there are enough pro-Nazis.

I can tell you dont like Robert Jenrick.
But why?

Feel free to list Robert's positive aspects.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

I can tell you dont like Robert Jenrick.
But why?

Feel free to list Robert's positive aspects.

Please dont answer my question with another question.
So why dont you like him?

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

Feel free to list Robert's positive aspects.

Please dont answer my question with another question you sound like a politician.
So why dont you like him?

I see nothing good about him. He was a useless minister who somehow thinks he should be running the country. He is disloyal in his own party, and seems to have no scruples about what he does to promote himself.

Now you tell me what you like about him.

[Celritannia]

Freedoms haven't been lost, and everything else you are spouting are far right talking points that have lead to division within society, including culture wars. No one cared about trans peoole in the 90s. The right wing has decided to make it an issue in the last decade.

What you are writing here is just idiotic.

As already stated by the posters above who have responded to you,
Britain has become far more authoritarian over recent years, be it the arrests for protesting or the online safety act and increasing nanny state over what you can or cant do on the Internet.

What iv said is not "far right talking points" but facts,
Britain has become divided between a radical left that hates britain and increasingly polarised right who are now far more open about being nationalistic that ever before, operation raise the colours began and is continuing due to the vocal minority that scream rascist at the flag and then tear it down from the lampposts because people are somehow offended at their nations flag. (Obviously im not referring to the councils that take them down but private individuals)
Both sides are reacting to each others increasingly more extreme policies and actions.

Oh please...

Yes, the OSA shouldn't exist, but that does not make the UK authoritarian.
Oh, this old chestnut. You do realise people have never been arrested for what they say on the internet, don't you? Those arrested have been charged with incitement, which has always been a crime.

They are far-right talking points. Again, race would not be an issue if the Right Wing didn't keep mentioning it, and this goes back to the Windrush era. There was never a massive culture war in the UK in the 90s, especially over trans people, but it has now exploded due to misinformation and lies by the right wing.

What exactly do you consider the radical left? Because it just sounds like you are adopting a buzzword from the far-right MAGA ilk of the US.

People are putting flags on lamp posts because they were being taken down for a routine lamp post inspection, and the overly patriotic and mostly racist people thought this was an affront to their nationalism, which it wasn't. It boils down to them being snowflakes, nothing more.

The more the right has gone further right, the centre has moved with them, as has the left. This has been a theme for the past several decades. The small far-right minority has found a way through Farage's charlatanism and has dragged UK politics further to the right with them.

The flag represents the british people so to be offended by a flag that represents you is something ill never understand

One can be offended by how the flag is used, but that does not mean people hate the UK flag.

I hate racists, xenophobes, and the far-right, who have been given a leeway by Farage, and are using it as a symbol of hatred and ethnic nationalism.

I like the UK flag; I am proud to be a supporter of the UK and of many of the good things it has done, acknowledging its faults and knowing it can be much more.
I despise the flag being used for a far-right agenda.

[Tinhampton]

If you liked my world-exclusive reporting about Jennifer Meierhans and Hazel Shearing from earlier, just wait until you get a load of my latest scoop...

Seasoned followers of this thread will remember that I tried to make you pay attention to The best time to turn on the heating – according to you when Emer Moreau and Connie Bowker dropped it not even two weeks ago. They are eager to quote an influencer, and put her face right at the top of the article, as follows:

Abbi Lily, who makes personal finance content under the moniker abbitalksmoney, says she and her partner try to "wait until the absolute last minute" before turning the heating on, in order to save money.

They're currently using blankets and jumpers to stay warm "so we can hold off as long as possible", but they don't have a hard and fast rule about when the heating goes on.

When she spoke to the BBC earlier this week, Abbi said it was still quite mild where she lives near Bournemouth.

"I'm wearing shorts today!" she said.

Fast forward to today, when a completely unrelated BBC reporter called Grace Dean sets out to investigate why Shoppers are turning to Shein - but some still can't leave Primark. In the middle of the article, right below the experiences of lapsed Primark believers Serena from Tooting and Martha from Leeds, is as follows:

Some say they're deterred by Primark's huge, sprawling stores which can sometimes get very busy.

"I do not enjoy shopping in a Primark," says Abbi Lily, a 24-year-old content creator from near Bournemouth. She describes the experience as "very overwhelming" and "overstimulating" and says it can be "impossible" to find things.

Image caption: Abbi in a cardigan she got from Primark (EDITOR'S NOTE: this is the same one she was wearing in the article from two weeks ago)

She used to buy most of her clothes from Primark, but feels it isn't as cheap as it used to be. "They just don't have the bargains as much anymore," she says, echoing comments some other shoppers made to the BBC.

Though Abbi sometimes shops at Shein, she's trying to become more "intentional" with her shopping and buy more second-hand items, including through Vinted and Depop.

We've therefore had someone who, according to the BBC, "makes personal finance content" giving multiple mini-interviews to the very same BBC in the space of a couple of weeks on the completely unrelated subject of what kind of clothes she wears. It's not yet clear whether or not BBC News will be asking Abbi for her take on Rachel Reeves' wardrobe when the Budget arrives on 26th November, but I will be sure to let you know if they do.

I have another coincidence I've seen on BBC News, albeit a rather less amusing and more topical one, to bring you today. Stay tuned!

[Greater Britannian Realm]

Please dont answer my question with another question you sound like a politician.
So why dont you like him?

I see nothing good about him. He was a useless minister who somehow thinks he should be running the country. He is disloyal in his own party, and seems to have no scruples about what he does to promote himself.

Now you tell me what you like about him.

I dont have any opinion on the man.
Other than he is a conservative.
Meaning whenever he goes on about dealing with immigration and other issues hes a hypocrite.

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

I dont have any opinion on the man.

Really.

[Greater Britannian Realm]

As already stated by the posters above who have responded to you,
Britain has become far more authoritarian over recent years, be it the arrests for protesting or the online safety act and increasing nanny state over what you can or cant do on the Internet.

What iv said is not "far right talking points" but facts,
Britain has become divided between a radical left that hates britain and increasingly polarised right who are now far more open about being nationalistic that ever before, operation raise the colours began and is continuing due to the vocal minority that scream rascist at the flag and then tear it down from the lampposts because people are somehow offended at their nations flag. (Obviously im not referring to the councils that take them down but private individuals)
Both sides are reacting to each others increasingly more extreme policies and actions.

Oh please...

Yes, the OSA shouldn't exist, but that does not make the UK authoritarian.
Oh, this old chestnut. You do realise people have never been arrested for what they say on the internet, don't you? Those arrested have been charged with incitement, which has always been a crime.

They are far-right talking points. Again, race would not be an issue if the Right Wing didn't keep mentioning it, and this goes back to the Windrush era. There was never a massive culture war in the UK in the 90s, especially over trans people, but it has now exploded due to misinformation and lies by the right wing.

What exactly do you consider the radical left? Because it just sounds like you are adopting a buzzword from the far-right MAGA ilk of the US.

People are putting flags on lamp posts because they were being taken down for a routine lamp post inspection, and the overly patriotic and mostly racist people thought this was an affront to their nationalism, which it wasn't. It boils down to them being snowflakes, nothing more.

The more the right has gone further right, the centre has moved with them, as has the left. This has been a theme for the past several decades. The small far-right minority has found a way through Farage's charlatanism and has dragged UK politics further to the right with them.

The flag represents the british people so to be offended by a flag that represents you is something ill never understand

One can be offended by how the flag is used, but that does not mean people hate the UK flag.

I hate racists, xenophobes, and the far-right, who have been given a leeway by Farage, and are using it as a symbol of hatred and ethnic nationalism.

I like the UK flag; I am proud to be a supporter of the UK and of many of the good things it has done, acknowledging its faults and knowing it can be much more.
I despise the flag being used for a far-right agenda.

Ill break down your post and my responses,
One, to the "race would not be an issue if the Right Wing didn't keep mentioning it" the left mentions race just as much as the right if not more, often by conflating being anti-illegal immigration or anti mass immigration as racist.
Its not about race its about culture, sure to some its about race but for the vast majority of the right its not race its culture.

Two, "trans people, but it has now exploded due to misinformation and lies by the right wing." It exploded due it becoming a mainstream issue, several years ago no one was even talking about them.

Three, "What exactly do you consider the radical left? Because it just sounds like you are adopting a buzzword from the far-right MAGA ilk of the US." Communists, Anarchists, ANTIFA anyone who is on the far left of the poltical spectrum. The worst type in my opinion are the champagne socialists the rich kids who live off the wealth of their parents and then cry how bad capitalism is and how rascist we are. Its been this crowd that has caused the most damage.

Four, "I hate racists, xenophobes, and the far-right, who have been given a leeway by Farage, and are using it as a symbol of hatred and ethnic nationalism." Reform is none of these things, theres a reason why rupert lowe was kicked out of reform and why nigel farage does not agree with tommy robbionson. Hes not the far right boogeyman that you keep lumping him as.

My biggest issue here is that just because a few idiots from neo nazi groups use the union jack, people have started labeling everyone whos right wing as rascist and fascist as soon as they start showing pride in said flag.
Stop labeling all of reform and those who have pride in their nation as fascist rascist nazis for gods sake because we are none of these things.

[NewAlbion]

Well I'm against the idea of an empire for the most part, but it was guaranteed the empire would not be meddled with in a peace pact

"If you think we're going to gamble on Herr Hitler's guarantees, you're making a grave mistake. All those years in England seems to have left you none the wiser. We're not easily frightened. Also we know how hard it is for an army to cross the Channel. The last little Corporal who tried came a cropper. So don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall... and even then we won't listen."

It's pretty easy, just jump in a dinghy!

[Slembana]

"If you think we're going to gamble on Herr Hitler's guarantees, you're making a grave mistake. All those years in England seems to have left you none the wiser. We're not easily frightened. Also we know how hard it is for an army to cross the Channel. The last little Corporal who tried came a cropper. So don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall... and even then we won't listen."

It's pretty easy, just jump in a dinghy!

Immigrants are not invaders. Stop comparing them.

[Waowstan]

Nick Boles: The most difficult jobs in Britain are Chancellor of the Exchequer and CelebrityTraitors series 2 casting director

---

Good article in the FT: The politics of breaking manifesto promises

Sir Vince Cable, former Liberal Democrat cabinet minister, concedes that the move hit the party but argues that Lib Dem support had already collapsed.

He says he would “absolutely” advise Reeves to break Labour’s manifesto tax pledge. “But they should do it properly” to rebuild the public finances, he says. “You might as well be hung for a sheep as hung for a lamb.”

[NewAlbion]

The idea that British towns and cities would've been better off under the nazi yoke, with all the Jews, undesireables and freethinkers having all been consigned to the gas chambers or shot by Einsatzgruppen... or that fighting the nazis was somehow worthless an endeavour just because British governments have been fucking up Britain since Thatcher...
These are certainly "opinions"...

What's next? "Actually the Holocaust wasn't that bad"?

Again, I am promoting a view of neutrality.
Considering how the Soviets and Americans were so hateful of our country, particularly the soviets, and how boastful they were that they were the sole contributors, we can leave them to deal with it.
Though I wouldn't be rooting for the Soviets that is for sure.

[Tinhampton]

Good article in the FT: The politics of breaking manifesto promises

Sir Vince Cable, former Liberal Democrat cabinet minister, concedes that the move hit the party but argues that Lib Dem support had already collapsed.

He says he would “absolutely” advise Reeves to break Labour’s manifesto tax pledge. “But they should do it properly” to rebuild the public finances, he says. “You might as well be hung for a sheep as hung for a lamb.”

I really thought this was going to be about free university tuition until midway through the second paragraph