NS Military Worldbuilding Thread No. 12

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Question: need help designing a torpedo that attaches to the attacked vessel
So basically since I’m planning on participating in an RP where I will RP as, basically, U-boat pirates, I need some sort of a way to take the vessels hostage. I suppose, having a torpedo that, after hitting the target, somehow attaches itself to it and then can be remotely detonated if the target fails to surrender woul be neat.
Now, the only problem is that I cant come up with a way to make the torpedo attach int self to the target. Can you help me?
P.S. I know that this concept is absurd but if I want underwater pirates imma get underwater pirates bruh.

[Gallia-]

Surfacing and deploying a rubber motorboat out of a hangar will work. Merchant ships are big enough that firing a relatively small torpedo might get them to stop.

Or you could just do what actual U-boat crews did and fire a deck gun at them while shouting "drop anchor" through a megaphone.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Ok I know you need something like Boarding Torpedos.How about let it insert half of the projectile into the cabin of the ship like an armor piercing bullet.The steel plates of civil ships are not too thick, and there are some watertight cabins. So as long as you don't detonate hundreds of kilograms of explosives in the torpedo, the ship won't sink .It can't go on because its Watertight compartments is damaged.

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Ok I know you need something like Boarding Torpedos.How about let it insert half of the projectile into the cabin of the ship like an armor piercing bullet.The steel plates of civil ships are not too thick, and there are some watertight cabins. So as long as you don't detonate hundreds of kilograms of explosives in the torpedo, the ship won't sink .It can't go on because its Watertight compartments is damaged.

I thought of this decision, but I was too afraid that such an impact may result in torpedo’s disintegration on impact.

[Laka Strolistandiler]

Surfacing and deploying a rubber motorboat out of a hangar will work. Merchant ships are big enough that firing a relatively small torpedo might get them to stop.

Or you could just do what actual U-boat crews did and fire a deck gun at them while shouting "drop anchor" through a megaphone.

I actually designed a special “additional submarine” that’s used for transporting boarding parties/prize crew. Still, sometimes you just have a ship too big to just put like 20 soldiers on it to gain control.
The problem with surfacing and firing a deck gun is that that’ll make our ship EXTREMELY vulnerable to surface attacks. Hell, even enemy units with ASM will be able to attack it.

[Gallia-]

A deck gun can clear out the rent-a-cops that might deter Somalis with their .50 cals and FN SCARs. What merchant ship, or piracy target, is armed with anti-shipping missiles? If you're in a submarine you're not looking to fight warships, and you usually have the luxury of being able to observe and match a ship's equipment fit with particular classes of warship, unlike Somali pirates.

Professional boarders, or submarine pirates or whatever, shouldn't have any trouble controlling a dozen or so merchantmen who crew modern cargo ships. Especially not after hitting the superstructure with whatever-flavor-of-medium-caliber-cannon you want.

Historic U-boat crews would just surface and fire deck guns at a merchant ship. Then board it. That was before people started putting big deck guns on a merchant ship, but no one does this these days, and probably wouldn't when there are better options (like helicopters).

While a torpedo that drops a limpet mine on the side of a boat is entirely doable, I don't see what it adds for a pirate gang. It might be useful for some sort of sabotage in a lock or narrow region of water (it detonates when the ship is in a canal or something) it isn't going to help you be a pirate. Just shoot a normal torpedo at the boat. Or surface and fire a deck gun, since you'll need to surface to board the ship anyway because you need to get up on the side of the ship with ropes or grapnels or nets or something. Both are actually things that will stop the ship and make it easier to board.

Ideally the deck gun is most useful since it damages only the superstructure and not the running gear, which you need to be able to abscond with your booty of name brand T-shirts and tinned canteloupes.

[The Akasha Colony]

Ok I know you need something like Boarding Torpedos.How about let it insert half of the projectile into the cabin of the ship like an armor piercing bullet.The steel plates of civil ships are not too thick, and there are some watertight cabins. So as long as you don't detonate hundreds of kilograms of explosives in the torpedo, the ship won't sink .It can't go on because its Watertight compartments is damaged.

Boarding torpedoes?

[Gallia-]

uh based???

[Vagonia]

Question: need help designing a torpedo that attaches to the attacked vessel
So basically since I’m planning on participating in an RP where I will RP as, basically, U-boat pirates, I need some sort of a way to take the vessels hostage. I suppose, having a torpedo that, after hitting the target, somehow attaches itself to it and then can be remotely detonated if the target fails to surrender woul be neat.
Now, the only problem is that I cant come up with a way to make the torpedo attach int self to the target. Can you help me?
P.S. I know that this concept is absurd but if I want underwater pirates imma get underwater pirates bruh.

Maybe a sticky HESH-type warhead with remote controlled detonation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-explosive_squash_head

[Laka Strolistandiler]

A deck gun can clear out the rent-a-cops that might deter Somalis with their .50 cals and FN SCARs. What merchant ship, or piracy target, is armed with anti-shipping missiles? If you're in a submarine you're not looking to fight warships, and you usually have the luxury of being able to observe and match a ship's equipment fit with particular classes of warship, unlike Somali pirates.

Professional boarders, or submarine pirates or whatever, shouldn't have any trouble controlling a dozen or so merchantmen who crew modern cargo ships. Especially not after hitting the superstructure with whatever-flavor-of-medium-caliber-cannon you want.

Historic U-boat crews would just surface and fire deck guns at a merchant ship. Then board it. That was before people started putting big deck guns on a merchant ship, but no one does this these days, and probably wouldn't when there are better options (like helicopters).

While a torpedo that drops a limpet mine on the side of a boat is entirely doable, I don't see what it adds for a pirate gang. It might be useful for some sort of sabotage in a lock or narrow region of water (it detonates when the ship is in a canal or something) it isn't going to help you be a pirate. Just shoot a normal torpedo at the boat. Or surface and fire a deck gun, since you'll need to surface to board the ship anyway because you need to get up on the side of the ship with ropes or grapnels or nets or something. Both are actually things that will stop the ship and make it easier to board.

Ideally the deck gun is most useful since it damages only the superstructure and not the running gear, which you need to be able to abscond with your booty of name brand T-shirts and tinned canteloupes.

Well, the problem is that the piracy thing is going to happen while a conventional WW3 (yay u-boat privateers) and as such we can expect the pirated vessels to be quite heavily protected- probably some kind of CIWS systems, or at least the equivalent of Bofors 40 mm or something.
When I spoke of ASMs I meant that when the attacked ship will start to scream and shout at the radio, the enemy might and will send something to help him. This “something” is very likely to be a missile boat or a missile carrier plane that can easily send our surfaced and vulnerable boat to pieces.
Your proposal of using a boarding party gave me quite and idea... Equip the frogmen with C-4 explosive, have them follow the attacked ship using a mini-submarine or a underwater scooter or something, attach the explosive than take the vessel hostage and force it to stop and allow the frogmen to board it... Is this absurd?

[Gallia-]

A deck gun can clear out the rent-a-cops that might deter Somalis with their .50 cals and FN SCARs. What merchant ship, or piracy target, is armed with anti-shipping missiles? If you're in a submarine you're not looking to fight warships, and you usually have the luxury of being able to observe and match a ship's equipment fit with particular classes of warship, unlike Somali pirates.

Professional boarders, or submarine pirates or whatever, shouldn't have any trouble controlling a dozen or so merchantmen who crew modern cargo ships. Especially not after hitting the superstructure with whatever-flavor-of-medium-caliber-cannon you want.

Historic U-boat crews would just surface and fire deck guns at a merchant ship. Then board it. That was before people started putting big deck guns on a merchant ship, but no one does this these days, and probably wouldn't when there are better options (like helicopters).

While a torpedo that drops a limpet mine on the side of a boat is entirely doable, I don't see what it adds for a pirate gang. It might be useful for some sort of sabotage in a lock or narrow region of water (it detonates when the ship is in a canal or something) it isn't going to help you be a pirate. Just shoot a normal torpedo at the boat. Or surface and fire a deck gun, since you'll need to surface to board the ship anyway because you need to get up on the side of the ship with ropes or grapnels or nets or something. Both are actually things that will stop the ship and make it easier to board.

Ideally the deck gun is most useful since it damages only the superstructure and not the running gear, which you need to be able to abscond with your booty of name brand T-shirts and tinned canteloupes.

Well, the problem is that the piracy thing is going to happen while a conventional WW3 (yay u-boat privateers) and as such we can expect the pirated vessels to be quite heavily protected- probably some kind of CIWS systems, or at least the equivalent of Bofors 40 mm or something.
When I spoke of ASMs I meant that when the attacked ship will start to scream and shout at the radio, the enemy might and will send something to help him. This “something” is very likely to be a missile boat or a missile carrier plane that can easily send our surfaced and vulnerable boat to pieces.
Your proposal of using a boarding party gave me quite and idea... Equip the frogmen with C-4 explosive, have them follow the attacked ship using a mini-submarine or a underwater scooter or something, attach the explosive than take the vessel hostage and force it to stop and allow the frogmen to board it... Is this absurd?

A piddly 20mm chaingun isn't a serious threat if your deck gun is like a T-12 Rapira or something meaty. Considering it's all of which is what the typical merchantman will be "armed" with, if anything at all, and .50 cals can be ignored until your RHIBs start shooting at them, and they should have machine guns or bazookas to shoot back plus the deck gun, the merchantman's not really a threat to the sub unless it accidentally rams the boat. A submarine surfacing in threat of air attack isn't going to surface, it'll just sink the ship. Privateers aren't hugely worried about capturing cheap goods like $0.05 T-shirts or masonry bricks that are usually shipped on CONEX boxes. Modern pirates want the crews, and possibly the ship, which are greater bounties than the cargo, for the ransom. Privateers got paid by ships sunk or captured, so I'm not sure they care much.

Again re: putting things on the hull, that's just a limpet mine. Catching up to a ship and slapping a limpet on the side is possible, but I don't think anyone actually does this. Most limpet attacks are done while it's moored simply because you have to physically get out and plant the bomb on the side of the hull. It's hard for a man to do this when he has to move at 20-ish knots and avoid being sucked up into an intake or or simply overtaken by the ship, or drawn into the props or whatever.

You take the vessel hostage by boarding it, shooting anyone who opposes the boarding, and locking the crew in a storeroom, bound and gagged and under armed guard, and proceed to pilot the ship normally. To do this you have to eliminate deck defenses, which might be a CIWS (20-30mm cannon) and a couple machine guns, and whoever is on deck to shoot them.

A medium caliber (76-105mm) deck gun accomplishes the latter nicely and a boarding team armed with submachine guns (Uzis or PP-19s or something) and flashbangs does the former.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Well, mentioning a split-S implies bank angles in excess of 90 to 180 degrees (inverted flight)...

A maneuver commonly used by biplane pilots in Korea to dodge Sparrow missiles.

Vaguely implying ye olde cropduster's tailslide maneuver? Because that's actually still a thing to take a turn into the deep vertical to make things hilariously tighter w/o pulling too many G's or pissing off the FAA.

A WiG would obviously need to recover at a higher altitude than it started, and thus be going slower coming out of the turn than an aircraft that can just dump a few Ks in altitude to boom on out with about $500 worth of paint ablated off the nosecone..

Airfish 8, if I'm not mistaken, is a 17 meter wide WiG... that takes 170 meter minimum safe turn radius at 100 kts.

You're mistaken.

Then you should probably contact Widgetworks and correct their website and other promotional materials.

Meanwhile a Cessna 208 pulling a 3g overloaded 75 degree hard-pull will manage 75 meters and 70% faster (time, 4.5 seconds for 180 degrees).

Yes, just like any other aircraft capable of sustaining a 75 degree bank at 100 knots - if it actually could. The problem is a Cessna 208 has a clean stall speed of ~75 knots so this is a good way to end up in an FAA report.

We've gone from "rocket-propelled dumptruck" to "normal published turning radius more than turns that either kill you or get your pilot's license revoked."

Rocket propelled dumptruck compared to a fast-boat like a SURC, yes. Roughly twice or thrice as fast but probably can't turn within its own length at the drop of a hat like a SURC.

Also, if noping the arbitrary expletive out of a hostile controlled airspace and the worst thing I get for it is a sternly worded teletext requiesting I hand in my pilot's license, I'd say I'd be getting off pretty lucky.

If you were vaguely implying that such a plane would end up in an accelerated stall and ultimately a flat-spin, that's what recovery-altitude is for. A WiG won't have that sort of safety margin, at all; which is kinda the point.

[Gallia-]

-Turning Radius:
+Ground effect mode: ~ 160m
+Displacement mode: ~ 100m

The fairly hefty 100-knot Airfish 8 has a listed turn radius of 160 meters, which is a bank angle of 60 degrees

Do you have some sort of dyslexia or something?

[Hurtful Thoughts]

-Turning Radius:
+Ground effect mode: ~ 160m
+Displacement mode: ~ 100m

The fairly hefty 100-knot Airfish 8 has a listed turn radius of 160 meters, which is a bank angle of 60 degrees

Do you have some sort of dyslexia or something?

Nonstop 12 hour workdays since nearly a year ago.

Plus every time I typed 17 or 17 it autocorrected to 17.

[Gallia-]

Do you have some sort of dyslexia or something?

Nonstop 12 hour workdays since nearly a year ago.

Ok, and? 60-70 hour work weeks are hardly the worst thing in the world. Lol.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Nonstop 12 hour workdays since nearly a year ago.

Ok, and? 60-70 hour work weeks are hardly the worst thing in the world. Lol.

There's more, but I respectfully choose not to discuss it aside from the cliche of "2020/21 was a bad year".

[Dtn]

Rocket propelled dumptruck compared to a fast-boat like a SURC, yes. Roughly twice or thrice as fast but probably can't turn within its own length at the drop of a hat like a SURC.

A SURC is a rocket-propelled dumptruck compared to a zero-turn radius lawnmower. Compared to a comparable aircraft or boat the WIG has a slight advantage due to ground effect.

Also, if noping the arbitrary expletive out of a hostile controlled airspace and the worst thing I get for it is a sternly worded teletext requiesting I hand in my pilot's license, I'd say I'd be getting off pretty lucky.

If you were vaguely implying that such a plane would end up in an accelerated stall and ultimately a flat-spin, that's what recovery-altitude is for. A WiG won't have that sort of safety margin, at all; which is kinda the point.

Does this hypothetical situation involve Don Karnage lol

-Turning Radius:
+Ground effect mode: ~ 160m
+Displacement mode: ~ 100m

The fairly hefty 100-knot Airfish 8 has a listed turn radius of 160 meters, which is a bank angle of 60 degrees

This was more about length versus width but note this is the normal listed turning radius. They're not going to list whatever it is for a "3g overloaded 75 degree hard-pull turn" because nobody wants to certify their boat as an aerobatic plane.

I suppose if you have to resort to airshow tricks for some reason the WIG could just land, turn in whatever arbitrary length, then take off again but this is fairly boring compared to doing a reverse half Cuban eight - which of course is a perfectly normal way planes turn around.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Rocket propelled dumptruck compared to a fast-boat like a SURC, yes. Roughly twice or thrice as fast but probably can't turn within its own length at the drop of a hat like a SURC.

A SURC is a rocket-propelled dumptruck compared to a zero-turn radius lawnmower. Compared to a comparable aircraft or boat the WIG has a slight advantage due to ground effect.

A SURC is actually comparable in size, displacement, payload, and horsepower to an Airfish. Bigger, actually.

I could go with ships of up to 75 tons displacement before maneuverability becomes problematic.

Also, if noping the arbitrary expletive out of a hostile controlled airspace and the worst thing I get for it is a sternly worded teletext requiesting I hand in my pilot's license, I'd say I'd be getting off pretty lucky.

If you were vaguely implying that such a plane would end up in an accelerated stall and ultimately a flat-spin, that's what recovery-altitude is for. A WiG won't have that sort of safety margin, at all; which is kinda the point.

Does this hypothetical situation involve Don Karnage lol

Whatever floats your torpedoes.

This was more about length versus width but note this is the normal listed turning radius. They're not going to list whatever it is for a "3g overloaded 75 degree hard-pull turn" because nobody wants to certify their boat as an aerobatic plane.

I suppose if you have to resort to airshow tricks for some reason the WIG could just land, turn in whatever arbitrary length, then take off again but this is fairly boring compared to doing a reverse half Cuban eight - which of course is a perfectly normal way planes turn around.

[/quote]
I'm presuming you're getting shot at, as the whole start of this was discussion was the use of WiGs as a v. fast torpedo-boat or something.

So getting shot at is kinda going to be a thing, so making a hasty course-reversal is kinda important.

If you're making your run-up and attack-run with your WiG being a boat for a better turn-radius/escape-time, then why not just use a boat that's a boat the whole time?
Especially if boat can do things planes cannot

[Dtn]

A SURC is actually comparable in size, displacement, payload, and horsepower to an Airfish. Bigger, actually.

It's about half the length, width, and speed.

I'm presuming you're getting shot at, as the whole start of this was discussion was the use of WiGs as a v. fast torpedo-boat or something.

So getting shot at is kinda going to be a thing, so making a hasty course-reversal is kinda important.

If you're making your run-up and attack-run with your WiG being a boat for a better turn-radius/escape-time, then why not just use a boat that's a boat the whole time?
Especially if boat can do things planes cannot

I don't care about using an ekranoplan as a torpedo boat, which is almost as silly as using a military bass boat for one or using a cropduster turn to avoid gunfire.

An ekranoplan like the Lun-class is a PARWIG, which does turn like a rocket-propelled dumptruck. For example the Lun had a turning radius of about 8 kilometers. This was due more to extreme wing-loading than height, but whatever.

A Lippisch WIG like the Bazar you linked, on the other hand, does not suffer this drawback and will generally turn as well or better than an aircraft or very high-speed boat. (The nearest comparable boat would probably be something like a 80-knot Bradstone Challenger, which has a turning radius over 500 meters at top speed.)

You're attempting to link the characteristics of one thing to something else by steadily throwing out more extreme edge cases.

[Miku the Based]

Well, originally I had the question of if wig aircraft fit the purpose of a low profile craft for anti-sub anti-ship role (the original role) in this day and age. That doesn't need fancy turning or aerobatics, just not having blip on radar before being able to do its thing.
The second is more general but geared to fancy insertion and exfil of things and people without having blip on radar and other imaging systems, it also does not need fancy turns at high speed the purpose I need it for is to avoid getting in close fights. I guess also making it dual purpose and have torpedos and missiles slapped on it is a plus.

[Hurtful Thoughts]

Well, originally I had the question of if wig aircraft fit the purpose of a low profile craft for anti-sub anti-ship role (the original role) in this day and age. That doesn't need fancy turning or aerobatics, just not having blip on radar before being able to do its thing.

The second is more general but geared to fancy insertion and exfil of things and people without having blip on radar and other imaging systems, it also does not need fancy turns at high speed the purpose I need it for is to avoid getting in close fights. I guess also making it dual purpose and have torpedos and missiles slapped on it is a plus.

So pretty much:
1. Is a WiG stealthy enough to be survivable? Is it better or worse than a (sub)surface-ship?

2. Does the speed justify using a WiG over any of the alternatives? Or is a boat of half the speed sufficient to stay outside a larger vessel's engagement-envelope?

3. Would conventional floatplanes/amphibians provide a more versatile patrol-bomber/rustic-transport?

4. Are they cool?

To which:
1. Probably not. It can however get out to check on shipping lanes faster than a PT-boat, and is 'cheaper' [?] than an airplane unless saltwater corrosion is a problem [it probably is]. But are most definitely faster and cheaper than using a submarine. And trying to get a combat-laden PT boat up to 120 kts to compare them speed-for-speed to a WiG is kinda asinine and if it had been done would probablt have rendered WiGs redundant.

2. For harassment at long distance, probably not. Unless their weapon-systems vastly outrange yours to the point that your hope is to close to firing distance and retreat back to outside the range of their ability to respond. Such as the case of Tu-95s guiding in Tu-22Ms to attack carrier battlegroups with rather gigantic anti-ship missiles.

3. Conventional maritime patrol aircraft such as the P-3 Orion can fly high enough to act as bombers for ground targets, and they have. They tend to fail at fancy insertions unless you're using something like a Be-12, though. And even then it isn't anything like a Lun or Zubr size payload.

4. Yes, they are very cool. And I actually do like them better than hovercraft.

[Gallia-]

Well, originally I had the question of if wig aircraft fit the purpose of a low profile craft for anti-sub anti-ship role (the original role) in this day and age. That doesn't need fancy turning or aerobatics, just not having blip on radar before being able to do its thing.
The second is more general but geared to fancy insertion and exfil of things and people without having blip on radar and other imaging systems, it also does not need fancy turns at high speed the purpose I need it for is to avoid getting in close fights. I guess also making it dual purpose and have torpedos and missiles slapped on it is a plus.

Just use a submarine.

[Miku the Based]

Just use a submarine.

Takes too long, I feel a need for speed.
Like the d-21 craft in mgs but able to exfil and carry at least 15 other people and cargo. Preform exfil and infil tasks mostly from shore.

[Cossack Peoples]

Would a FOBS made in the present day overcome the technical issues (accuracy, lowered warhead weight, etc.)?

[Gallia-]

There are no technical issues except that FOBS isn't very useful.