LWDT IX: Discussing the Left From All Engels

[Genivaria]

Depends on if they care more about 'the revolution ' or actual helping the people.

That's kind of a bogus way of putting it. You don't think that any of the ML revolutionaries thought that what they were doing was helping the people?

Before I respond to that, could you clarify 'ML' please?

[Genivaria]

This looks like capitalism desperately trying to be socialist, but also trying not to be socialist, leading to failure.

Distributism isn't about the abolition of private enterprise. It's about creating enough material equality under private enterprise that all human beings are able to live with dignity and self-actualize. That's more important than public control of the means of production to anyone who isn't an ideologue.

Sounds like Social Democracy to me.

[Nakena]

Iceland is firmly in the hands of CCP anyways as anyone knows.

[Fahran]

Sounds like Social Democracy to me.

It's more radical because land, an important means of production, would have to be redistributed, probably with compensation, to implement distributism on a large scale. Their motto wasn't "three acres and a cow" without reason after all. But, again, everything that isn't left-lib is right-wing to some.

[Genivaria]

That's kind of a bogus way of putting it. You don't think that any of the ML revolutionaries thought that what they were doing was helping the people?

Tbf, Genivaria did say "care more," which implies they can still care about helping people, just to an inferior extant. You're point is still valid, though--as Hannah Arendt once pointed out, "for the greater good" has often been as an excuse to do horrendous things. Of course, there are some idiots who use that to try and argue that you should therefore never do anything to try and help other people (support a movement proclaiming to), but that's another discussion.

I think that where revolutionary socialism goes wrong is in the revolution, itself. By nature, they're kind of just saying, "Fuck everyone who's not working class, working class rise," since the entire point is overthrowing the capitalists. I think that class warfare, in either direction, solves nothing. I think Bernstein and the evolutionary socialists had it right, they tried to accomplish their goals without killing off thousands of people and to a large degree succeeded. Not so much in establishing socialism, but they did manage to drastically improve the lot of the lower class, which is what socialists claim is their main desire anyway.

Yeah this is my general take on Socialism, that's it's less a single system and more of an ideal to be achieved through whatever means possible.

If workers are happy and thriving from a strong social safety net and workers rights within a capitalist framework than I'd say the job is done.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Distributism isn't about the abolition of private enterprise. It's about creating enough material equality under private enterprise that all human beings are able to live with dignity and self-actualize. That's more important than public control of the means of production to anyone who isn't an ideologue.

Sounds like Social Democracy to me.

It's a different concept. Distributism is more like "everyone owns a small part of the means of production" so a good analogy would be a n economic system similar to an idealized 17th century with yeoman farmers and individual craftsmen, etc.

[Northern Davincia]

Iceland is firmly in the hands of CCP anyways as anyone knows.

All the more reason for them to join the Union.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Detroit and Rotterdam do not even begin to compare in terms of crime statistics, and 5 seconds of googling would have told you that.

Yeah, call things by its name. And if you knew what a narco state was, you would not call the Netherlands one.

So, if I understand you correctly... a lawyer was shot, so I don’t get to have an opinion on human rights? That’s rich.

No not at all. Infact, you really ought not to opine at all on the matter given you supposedly work in justice. You go on about how you can't trust the word of the police in the Netherlands as they try to influence politics. So which one is it? Do we trust the Dutch police or do we not? Make up your mind.

I'll note too you didn't actually refute anybody who posted stats or reports with data. You just said some mealy mouthed nonsense. I don't blame you, it must be hard looking in the mirror and not liking what you find. It would be very hard for you rail about human rights when you work for a government which actively enables human trafficking and drug production on a mass scale.

If you’re going for shock value, then perhaps. But at this point, you’re not trying to make a point, are you? I mean, it’s kind of weak to form your whole opinion around something based on what you think will get people upset. The sad thing is, I don’t think you realize how unconvincing your spiel is, because if you knew, you would have stopped by now.

But don’t let that stop you! It’s at least entertaining.

It isn't shock value. It's pointing out institutional culture and trends. You moan about rape culture this and racism that being built in, how about a country who's government has this built in as an acceptable outcome?

[img]https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/23/08/4699F76000000578-5109361-Mladic_raises_a_toast_to_his_troops_watched_by_Dutch_commander_G-a-9_1511424487766.jpg[/img

It's not really any wonder the Netherlands is largely indifferent to it becoming a narco-state anymore than it is surprising that it is ok with the human trafficking through Amsterdam. Just look at what you produce! That was my point.

Your government is just like the good Colonel Karremans. Drinking it up with the monsters while the innocent at butchered outside. But it's ok, you don't have to see it so doesn't matter right?

The Dutch State was held accountable in court for the Sbrenica genocide, and I fully agree with that assessment. It’s a monumentally bad take anyway, because it rests on wild assumptions:

1) Because I think the term narco state is hyperbolic for the Netherlands, I agree with the Sbrenica genocide.
2) The inaction of a military commander in Bosnia mean that the current Dutch government is bought by drug dealers.
3) There is ‘inherent Dutchness’ that entails cowardice and weakness.
4) You either have blind faith in police or you detest everything about the institution. (You might want to be careful about this, because you yourself have a few opinions that won’t make this test)

You don’t spell these assumptions out, but you rely on them for your bad faith arguments to work, and either you know that, or you don’t. If you know it, you’re trolling, and if you don’t know, then you are not in command of your own argument. You take a pick.

(By the way, becoming a narco state? I though you said the Netherlands already was one)

Oh yes, ‘mealy mouthed nonsense’, your favorite insult. Really, it doesn’t get old even after a hundred times, so do keep using it. Might there be a half-way point between total trust in a police force and total rejection of the concept of policing? Might there exist such a thing as nuance, which other people might enjoy? I wonder.

And do please point me to the ‘numbers and stats’, because I have trawled through the last few pages and not found a thing.

I have to say, you used to intimidate me a bit with your total conviction and belief in yourself, but your arguments deflate so quickly under pressure that I see that was totally unwarranted.

[Aureumterra]

Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro

That's what you get when you turn an economic theory into a political ideology.

Marxism is the economic theory, Leninism is the political ideology

uh

sorry for the boomer meme

[Aureumterra]

Anywhere that is communist would send me to the re-education camp at best, and would hang me at worst.

Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro

Those who don’t… well… I'll let these kids explain

[Rojava Free State]

Anywhere that is communist would send me to the re-education camp at best, and would hang me at worst.

Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro

Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.

[Genivaria]

Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro

Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.

You seem to be using the word authoritarian very loosely.
Simply having coercion doesn't make a society authoritarian, police coerce suspects into the back of a car all the time.

[Aureumterra]

Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro

Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.

Every attempt at socialist libertarian revolutions has failed spectacularly, Catalonia barely even put up a fight because their militias were incompetent and Franco just rolled in

[Genivaria]

Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.

Every attempt at socialist libertarian revolutions has failed spectacularly, Catalonia barely even put up a fight because their militias were incompetent and Franco just rolled in

Is that a failure of the system or just a failure in military organization?
I'd like to point out that the Communists in both Russia and China were able to take advantage of their enemies fighting each other.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.

Every attempt at socialist libertarian revolutions has failed spectacularly, Catalonia barely even put up a fight because their militias were incompetent and Franco just rolled in

Catalan forces were fought by both Stalinists and Fascists (so, generally, by fascists) supported by the USSR, Nazi Germany and Italy. Their defeat might not have meant as much as you think.

[Genivaria]

Every attempt at socialist libertarian revolutions has failed spectacularly, Catalonia barely even put up a fight because their militias were incompetent and Franco just rolled in

Catalan forces were fought by both Stalinists and Fascists (so, generally, by fascists) supported by the USSR, Nazi Germany and Italy. Their defeat might not have meant as much as you think.

It seems like there's a pattern of irregulars winning when either their enemy is distracted or otherwise severely handicapped.

[The New California Republic]

Catalan forces were fought by both Stalinists and Fascists (so, generally, by fascists) supported by the USSR, Nazi Germany and Italy. Their defeat might not have meant as much as you think.

It seems like there's a pattern of irregulars winning when either their enemy is distracted or otherwise severely handicapped.

To be fair that's the best way of waging war across the board...

[Genivaria]

It seems like there's a pattern of irregulars winning when either their enemy is distracted or otherwise severely handicapped.

To be fair that's the best way of waging war across the board...

Oh I absolutely agree, I'm just saying that your military force failing shouldn't necessarily be seen as a failure of the ideal or system they fight for.

[The East Marches II]

The Dutch State was held accountable in court for the Sbrenica genocide, and I fully agree with that assessment. It’s a monumentally bad take anyway, because it rests on wild assumptions:

1) Because I think the term narco state is hyperbolic for the Netherlands, I agree with the Sbrenica genocide.
2) The inaction of a military commander in Bosnia mean that the current Dutch government is bought by drug dealers.
3) There is ‘inherent Dutchness’ that entails cowardice and weakness.
4) You either have blind faith in police or you detest everything about the institution. (You might want to be careful about this, because you yourself have a few opinions that won’t make this test)

You don’t spell these assumptions out, but you rely on them for your bad faith arguments to work, and either you know that, or you don’t. If you know it, you’re trolling, and if you don’t know, then you are not in command of your own argument. You take a pick.

Regarding nacro-state my other colleagues BTFO'd you on that one. I have no need to continue to make you look a fool but especially so as I illustrated below, you apparently can't or won't read articles or any other proofs.

I explicitly said this was a result of institutional culture. Infact, here is my quote.

It isn't shock value. It's pointing out institutional culture and trends. You moan about rape culture this and racism that being built in, how about a country who's government has this built in as an acceptable outcome?

Your government produces men and an institutional culture which has Sbrenica as the outcome. This is not an assumption of the cowardice of the Dutch people or any Dutchness. You may not be familiar with this sort of thing but organizations and institutions have cultures & memories. There is a whole field of study dedicated to it. Again, for somebody who whines about rape culture this or institutional racism that, you have absolutely no understanding of this sort of thing. Lucky for you, I linked you a wikipedia article so you can get a basic level of understanding.

Some institutions learn different lessons and inculcate a certain cultural norm from events. Your government encourages the norm of drinking with degenerate filth while innocent people are gunned down outside. Therefore, it isn't surprising when innocent people are being gunned down (like the lawyer or other victims mentioned in the BBC article), the Dutch government chooses the option of drinking with the monsters who are doing the deed.

One wonders if the Dutch government's handing out patches made the survivors feel better or worse after your fake inquiry. Too bad the only thing which would have saved them was courage. Something the Dutch government lacks institutionally. Its only understanding of that sort of thing is pathetic surrender and cooperation with the villains as illustrated by historical actions as of late.

(By the way, becoming a narco state? I though you said the Netherlands already was one)

Perhaps that is an English misunderstanding. As in "I didn't mind becoming a goodposter on NS." It isn't your first language and English anyway is full of colloquialisms & rules so I won't blame you for trying to mickey mouse me on it. It was a good attempt. Infact, because I am an extremely charitable and kind fellow, I may even say I could have been wrong in my English usage and save you some face.

Oh yes, ‘mealy mouthed nonsense’, your favorite insult. Really, it doesn’t get old even after a hundred times, so do keep using it. Might there be a half-way point between total trust in a police force and total rejection of the concept of policing? Might there exist such a thing as nuance, which other people might enjoy? I wonder.

Its not an insult, its a descriptor of the excuses you routinely give to describe the total failure of your worldview. You're slowly retreating and crumbling under the pressure. Its really fantastic. Just look at you now, you're a bit red colored in the politics :^)

No, not with what you just said. You just said they try to influence Dutch politics institutionally by misrepresenting things (i.e. lying). So now you go back on your previous statement? Its not my fault you can't keep a coherent worldview.

And do please point me to the ‘numbers and stats’, because I have trawled through the last few pages and not found a thing.

Regarding the police statement thing, my view of the Netherlands is not drawn from that. Lucky enough, I actually read the BBC and Guardian articles, you clearly did not. Lucky for you, I am generous man and I will go over the figures mentioned within as well as other reports within them since asking you to read is apparently far too much!

One opinion poll suggested 59% of people believed the Netherlands was now a narco-state, in other words a country whose economy is dependent on the trade in illegal drugs.

Renowned writer Roberto Saviano, who chronicled the organised crime world of the Naples Camorra network, believes mafia influence in Amsterdam is even worse.

"There are clans from all over the world, because the Netherlands is one of the most important transit ports. They know whoever controls the Netherlands has one of the arteries of the global drug market," he told the Volkskrant newspaper.

Billions and billions of euros are earned on the black market. Synthetic drugs with a street value of €18.9bn (£16bn; $22bn) were produced in the Netherlands in 2017.

Soft drugs have been imported from Colombia and North Africa for 30 years. Today a significant portion of synthetic drugs - MDMA, LSD, amphetamines, GHB and crystal meth - are produced in the Netherlands. In fact the country is considered a world leader.

A large majority of ecstasy taken in Europe and the US comes from labs in the south of the country, which are increasingly run by Moroccan gangs involved in the production of cannabis. Half of the €5.7bn a year of cocaine taken in Europe comes through the port of Rotterdam, according to Europol.

“Only one in nine criminal groups can be tackled with the current people and resources,” the report given to the De Telegraaf newspaper says. “Detectives see that small criminals develop into wealthy entrepreneurs who establish themselves in the hospitality industry, housing market, middle class, travel agencies.”

a report commissioned by the mayor of Amsterdam in August described the capital as a "Valhalla for drugs criminals".

This can be found here but it has fun facts too like the recruitment of young men with low IQs to be the fodder and the sheer money turn over. Very cool! A shame I can't get to the full thing and can only source it from secondary reports.

So, now that I have spelled those figures out for you. Address them and don't dodge. I even did the tough part for you in the reading bit :^)

I have to say, you used to intimidate me a bit with your total conviction and belief in yourself, but your arguments deflate so quickly under pressure that I see that was totally unwarranted.

Of course I believe in my positions. This is why I am convincing and you are fundamentally not. Just look at your slide in quality and slow retreat. You have to resort to willful blindness to keep it together. It is really fantastic. One couldn't ask for a better foe. But this is the trouble with your worldview, it does not fundamentally believe in itself. This is why it is dead internationally and functional dead domestically.

[Upper Nan]

This looks like capitalism desperately trying to be socialist, but also trying not to be socialist, leading to failure.

Distributism isn't about the abolition of private enterprise. It's about creating enough material equality under private enterprise that all human beings are able to live with dignity and self-actualize. That's more important than public control of the means of production to anyone who isn't an ideologue. It's a good deal more radical than social democracy, but I suppose you view Denmark and Sweden as right-wing economic models.

GCCS's comment reminds me of that old saying, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." When all you have is socialism, everything looks like capitalism, even systems (like distributism and corporatism, for instance) designed specifically as non-socialist alternatives to capitalism.

Distributism isn't about the abolition of private enterprise. It's about creating enough material equality under private enterprise that all human beings are able to live with dignity and self-actualize. That's more important than public control of the means of production to anyone who isn't an ideologue.

Sounds like Social Democracy to me.

It's far more conservative than social democracy. As it's based on Catholic social values, it emphasizes the family as the foundation of the economy, whereas social democracy is just capitalism with a welfare state. Distributists aren't opposed to welfare, but prefer private initiative if possible, at least that's my understanding of it based on what I've read. I don't claim to be any kind of expert, nor am I an adherent.

That's what you get when you turn an economic theory into a political ideology.

Marxism is the economic theory, Leninism is the political ideology

uh

sorry for the boomer meme

Marxism and socialism aren't the same thing. Yes, all Marxists are socialists (specifically, Communists), but not all socialists or Communists are Marxists. Socialism is simply an economic theory that advocates social ownership of the means of production--in effect, democratic control over the economy. Kind of like if every company was a cooperative, but they geared their services towards social benefit rather than profit (unless you're a market socialist, in which case they gear towards profit).

Regardless of one's personal feelings/biases, such a system in noway entails any kind of specific political apparatus. So all of the political baggage attached towards socialism as a system comes from the various individuals who espouse/oppose it, rather than (necessarily) the idea itself. Of course, this is speaking strictly in the most abstract terms.

[Upper Nan]

Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.

Every attempt at socialist libertarian revolutions has failed spectacularly, Catalonia barely even put up a fight because their militias were incompetent and Franco just rolled in

Militias like the POUM were hardly incompetent, they were just few on resources, which wasn't helped by the already-mentioned betrayal by the Spanish Communist Party. Note that I don't say this out of support for their ideology, I just very much disagree with your interpretation of the historical events.

I should also point out that the EZLN commune and Rojava (or whatever it's called now) are libertarian socialist experiments that very much have not failed (yet). Again, not defending the ideology, but your first statement is simply factually wrong.

[Shanghai industrial complex]

Iceland is firmly in the hands of CCP anyways as anyone knows.

No, it can't.It's a conspiracy theory delusion

[Cisairse]

Hello gentlemen,

Thoughts on the Zapatistas?

[Jack Thomas Lang]

Hello gentlemen,

Thoughts on the Zapatistas?

Pancho was better.

[True Refuge]

Hello gentlemen,

Thoughts on the Zapatistas?

Both the originals and the EZLN are pretty cool.

Mexico sets a really low bar for government quality though so it's not hard to exceed it by simply not being a narco-state.