Before I respond to that, could you clarify 'ML' please?
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by Genivaria » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:14 am
Fahran wrote:Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:This looks like capitalism desperately trying to be socialist, but also trying not to be socialist, leading to failure.
Distributism isn't about the abolition of private enterprise. It's about creating enough material equality under private enterprise that all human beings are able to live with dignity and self-actualize. That's more important than public control of the means of production to anyone who isn't an ideologue.
by Fahran » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:17 am
Genivaria wrote:Sounds like Social Democracy to me.
by Genivaria » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:17 am
Upper Nan wrote:Joohan wrote:
That's kind of a bogus way of putting it. You don't think that any of the ML revolutionaries thought that what they were doing was helping the people?
Tbf, Genivaria did say "care more," which implies they can still care about helping people, just to an inferior extant. You're point is still valid, though--as Hannah Arendt once pointed out, "for the greater good" has often been as an excuse to do horrendous things. Of course, there are some idiots who use that to try and argue that you should therefore never do anything to try and help other people (support a movement proclaiming to), but that's another discussion.
I think that where revolutionary socialism goes wrong is in the revolution, itself. By nature, they're kind of just saying, "Fuck everyone who's not working class, working class rise," since the entire point is overthrowing the capitalists. I think that class warfare, in either direction, solves nothing. I think Bernstein and the evolutionary socialists had it right, they tried to accomplish their goals without killing off thousands of people and to a large degree succeeded. Not so much in establishing socialism, but they did manage to drastically improve the lot of the lower class, which is what socialists claim is their main desire anyway.
by United Muscovite Nations » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:18 am
Genivaria wrote:Fahran wrote:Distributism isn't about the abolition of private enterprise. It's about creating enough material equality under private enterprise that all human beings are able to live with dignity and self-actualize. That's more important than public control of the means of production to anyone who isn't an ideologue.
Sounds like Social Democracy to me.
by Northern Davincia » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:24 am
Nakena wrote:Iceland is firmly in the hands of CCP anyways as anyone knows.
Conserative Morality wrote:"Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Hoppe."
by Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Tue Apr 28, 2020 10:29 am
The East Marches II wrote:Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Detroit and Rotterdam do not even begin to compare in terms of crime statistics, and 5 seconds of googling would have told you that.
Yeah, call things by its name. And if you knew what a narco state was, you would not call the Netherlands one.
So, if I understand you correctly... a lawyer was shot, so I don’t get to have an opinion on human rights? That’s rich.
No not at all. Infact, you really ought not to opine at all on the matter given you supposedly work in justice. You go on about how you can't trust the word of the police in the Netherlands as they try to influence politics. So which one is it? Do we trust the Dutch police or do we not? Make up your mind.
I'll note too you didn't actually refute anybody who posted stats or reports with data. You just said some mealy mouthed nonsense. I don't blame you, it must be hard looking in the mirror and not liking what you find. It would be very hard for you rail about human rights when you work for a government which actively enables human trafficking and drug production on a mass scale.Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:
If you’re going for shock value, then perhaps. But at this point, you’re not trying to make a point, are you? I mean, it’s kind of weak to form your whole opinion around something based on what you think will get people upset. The sad thing is, I don’t think you realize how unconvincing your spiel is, because if you knew, you would have stopped by now.
But don’t let that stop you! It’s at least entertaining.
It isn't shock value. It's pointing out institutional culture and trends. You moan about rape culture this and racism that being built in, how about a country who's government has this built in as an acceptable outcome?
[img]https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2017/11/23/08/4699F76000000578-5109361-Mladic_raises_a_toast_to_his_troops_watched_by_Dutch_commander_G-a-9_1511424487766.jpg[/img
It's not really any wonder the Netherlands is largely indifferent to it becoming a narco-state anymore than it is surprising that it is ok with the human trafficking through Amsterdam. Just look at what you produce! That was my point.
Your government is just like the good Colonel Karremans. Drinking it up with the monsters while the innocent at butchered outside. But it's ok, you don't have to see it so doesn't matter right?
by Aureumterra » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:07 am
by Aureumterra » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:13 am
by Rojava Free State » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:15 am
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by Genivaria » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:21 am
Rojava Free State wrote:Joohan wrote:
Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro
Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.
by Aureumterra » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:22 am
Rojava Free State wrote:Joohan wrote:
Any movement serious about socialist revolution will inevitably advance into authoritarianism, for the sake of survival. Just saying bro
Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.
by Genivaria » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:28 am
Aureumterra wrote:Rojava Free State wrote:
Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.
Every attempt at socialist libertarian revolutions has failed spectacularly, Catalonia barely even put up a fight because their militias were incompetent and Franco just rolled in
by Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:32 am
Aureumterra wrote:Rojava Free State wrote:
Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.
Every attempt at socialist libertarian revolutions has failed spectacularly, Catalonia barely even put up a fight because their militias were incompetent and Franco just rolled in
by Genivaria » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:35 am
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Aureumterra wrote:Every attempt at socialist libertarian revolutions has failed spectacularly, Catalonia barely even put up a fight because their militias were incompetent and Franco just rolled in
Catalan forces were fought by both Stalinists and Fascists (so, generally, by fascists) supported by the USSR, Nazi Germany and Italy. Their defeat might not have meant as much as you think.
by The New California Republic » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:43 am
Genivaria wrote:Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Catalan forces were fought by both Stalinists and Fascists (so, generally, by fascists) supported by the USSR, Nazi Germany and Italy. Their defeat might not have meant as much as you think.
It seems like there's a pattern of irregulars winning when either their enemy is distracted or otherwise severely handicapped.
by The East Marches II » Tue Apr 28, 2020 12:02 pm
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:The Dutch State was held accountable in court for the Sbrenica genocide, and I fully agree with that assessment. It’s a monumentally bad take anyway, because it rests on wild assumptions:
1) Because I think the term narco state is hyperbolic for the Netherlands, I agree with the Sbrenica genocide.
2) The inaction of a military commander in Bosnia mean that the current Dutch government is bought by drug dealers.
3) There is ‘inherent Dutchness’ that entails cowardice and weakness.
4) You either have blind faith in police or you detest everything about the institution. (You might want to be careful about this, because you yourself have a few opinions that won’t make this test)
You don’t spell these assumptions out, but you rely on them for your bad faith arguments to work, and either you know that, or you don’t. If you know it, you’re trolling, and if you don’t know, then you are not in command of your own argument. You take a pick.
The East Marches II wrote:It isn't shock value. It's pointing out institutional culture and trends. You moan about rape culture this and racism that being built in, how about a country who's government has this built in as an acceptable outcome?
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:(By the way, becoming a narco state? I though you said the Netherlands already was one)
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:Oh yes, ‘mealy mouthed nonsense’, your favorite insult. Really, it doesn’t get old even after a hundred times, so do keep using it. Might there be a half-way point between total trust in a police force and total rejection of the concept of policing? Might there exist such a thing as nuance, which other people might enjoy? I wonder.
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:And do please point me to the ‘numbers and stats’, because I have trawled through the last few pages and not found a thing.
BBC wrote:One opinion poll suggested 59% of people believed the Netherlands was now a narco-state, in other words a country whose economy is dependent on the trade in illegal drugs.
BBC wrote:Renowned writer Roberto Saviano, who chronicled the organised crime world of the Naples Camorra network, believes mafia influence in Amsterdam is even worse.
"There are clans from all over the world, because the Netherlands is one of the most important transit ports. They know whoever controls the Netherlands has one of the arteries of the global drug market," he told the Volkskrant newspaper.
Billions and billions of euros are earned on the black market. Synthetic drugs with a street value of €18.9bn (£16bn; $22bn) were produced in the Netherlands in 2017.
Soft drugs have been imported from Colombia and North Africa for 30 years. Today a significant portion of synthetic drugs - MDMA, LSD, amphetamines, GHB and crystal meth - are produced in the Netherlands. In fact the country is considered a world leader.
The Guardian wrote:A large majority of ecstasy taken in Europe and the US comes from labs in the south of the country, which are increasingly run by Moroccan gangs involved in the production of cannabis. Half of the €5.7bn a year of cocaine taken in Europe comes through the port of Rotterdam, according to Europol.
The Guardian wrote:“Only one in nine criminal groups can be tackled with the current people and resources,” the report given to the De Telegraaf newspaper says. “Detectives see that small criminals develop into wealthy entrepreneurs who establish themselves in the hospitality industry, housing market, middle class, travel agencies.”
BBC wrote:a report commissioned by the mayor of Amsterdam in August described the capital as a "Valhalla for drugs criminals".
Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:I have to say, you used to intimidate me a bit with your total conviction and belief in yourself, but your arguments deflate so quickly under pressure that I see that was totally unwarranted.
by Upper Nan » Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:13 pm
Fahran wrote:Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States wrote:This looks like capitalism desperately trying to be socialist, but also trying not to be socialist, leading to failure.
Distributism isn't about the abolition of private enterprise. It's about creating enough material equality under private enterprise that all human beings are able to live with dignity and self-actualize. That's more important than public control of the means of production to anyone who isn't an ideologue. It's a good deal more radical than social democracy, but I suppose you view Denmark and Sweden as right-wing economic models.
Genivaria wrote:Fahran wrote:Distributism isn't about the abolition of private enterprise. It's about creating enough material equality under private enterprise that all human beings are able to live with dignity and self-actualize. That's more important than public control of the means of production to anyone who isn't an ideologue.
Sounds like Social Democracy to me.
by Upper Nan » Tue Apr 28, 2020 2:19 pm
Aureumterra wrote:Rojava Free State wrote:
Only if it is on a widespread scale, like a country. Most of human history though is aurhoritarian and most systems rely on authoritarianism because you'll never get 100% of people to go along with sudden and radical change.
Every attempt at socialist libertarian revolutions has failed spectacularly, Catalonia barely even put up a fight because their militias were incompetent and Franco just rolled in
by Shanghai industrial complex » Tue Apr 28, 2020 8:48 pm
Nakena wrote:Iceland is firmly in the hands of CCP anyways as anyone knows.
by True Refuge » Tue Apr 28, 2020 11:19 pm
"One does not need to be surprised then, when 26 years later the outrageous slogan is repeated, which we Marxists burned all bridges with: to “pick up” the banner of the bourgeoisie. - International Communist Party, Dialogue with Stalin.
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