[PASSED] Commend Markanite

[Novae Romae]

Hm. But were "Kain_the_Dragoon" and his endorsers allowed to vote?

Good question. I didn't remember offhand, but the rules outlined in here seem to state explicitly that they would have been able to, provided they committed their WA to the region for the whole election. Looks like at least one nation we banned (Nicholas von Sinterklaas) was willing and able to come back in, run, and cast a valid vote.

Thank you so much for linking that, because that gives me much more information on the history regarding this commendation.

It also shows me that this occupation, as called by the Osiris natives, was wildly unpopular. The defender nations who organized those elections also showed themselves to be unwilling to listen to their request for TITO to leave. The words of the long-gone nation of Diol from that thread strike a cord, "By claiming that osiris is 'stuck with tito' you are invading the region. Call it liberation. Call it helping the region get on its feet.
Sprinkle it in sugar and put a cherry on top but it's still an invasion, and for a defender organisation, I have not seen a higher form of hipocracy in my time on nation states."

More natives seemed to speak out, with Oliver the Mediocre saying, "With TITO in firm control of the delegacy at the moment, there's very little we can do but let them run the elections their way. I have faith in A Mean Old Man's ability to keep this neutral, and I applaud TITO on their decision, though I would feel a lot better if the people who intended to actually spend time in Osiris were permitted to make their own decisions about the matter, rather than having them handed down from above." This was one of the tamer responses to TITO's occupation I saw on this thread.

This whole situation appeared to be one a big overstep by TITO, in my opinion at least. But now, back to this commendation. I quite frankly think it's undeserved. They took part in an operation against a threat that wasn't there and an unpopular takeover by self-righteous TITO forces and Pacific allies. To this effect, Topdop, the starter of the thread, said, "...and to all the stubborn naysayers, I'll be very blunt: You're stuck with TITO, and you're stuck with me." So, defenders take over the region, force the people into what is an unpopular temporary occupation, and disregards the actual natives, the people they're trying to help, in favor of their own larger goals. It was an overstep then and it's an overstep now in trying to commend your own actions essentially once again.

[Reinkalistani Osanta]

Not gonna lie, this is another blatant act of 10KI backscratching. Everything that needs to be said has already been said, but I think it's fair to say that defenders acting like raiders doesn't set a good precedent. This incident was an invasion, clear-cut. I have no issue with invasions, but how TITO acted in Osiris was appalling. Don't pretend to be something you aren't. If a raiding region had taken Osiris then, and acted exactly how TITO did, I don't think anyone would be listing it as a reason for commendation.

[THX1138]

...If a raiding region had taken Osiris then, and acted exactly how TITO did, I don't think anyone would be listing it as a reason for commendation.

In what reality would a raider org enter another region, facilitate a structured, democratic election among natives as to the future of that region, transfer power in accordance with the will of the region's inhabitants, then depart?

[Novae Romae]

...If a raiding region had taken Osiris then, and acted exactly how TITO did, I don't think anyone would be listing it as a reason for commendation.

In what reality would a raider org enter another region, facilitate a structured, democrat election among natives as to the future of that region, transfer power in accordance with the will of the region's inhabitants, then depart?

I don't think my friend meant to call TITO raiders per se, rather, they were invaders who forcefully seized the region for an illusion of securing something that didn't need to be secured.

[Reinkalistani Osanta]

...If a raiding region had taken Osiris then, and acted exactly how TITO did, I don't think anyone would be listing it as a reason for commendation.

In what reality would a raider org enter another region, facilitate a structured, democratic election among natives as to the future of that region, transfer power in accordance with the will of the region's inhabitants, then depart?

In what reality would a defender org enter another region, facilitate a 'structured', 'democratic' election (that nobody there wanted), refuse to leave until said 'election' is carried out under their terms, and occupy the region against the will of the inhabitants? Waaiiit a second!

[Kuriko]

You guys should read the entirety of the Osiris threads to get the full story, which you obviously did not and decided to nitpick in order to backup the reasoning against the proposal. Anyways, THX and I are debating on removing Osiris from the proposal and replacing it with a different operation of significant importance.

[Novae Romae]

You guys should read the entirety of the Osiris threads to get the full story, which you obviously did not and decided to nitpick in order to backup the reasoning against the proposal. Anyways, THX and I are debating on removing Osiris from the proposal and replacing it with a different operation of significant importance.

Firstly, I did read the entire thread and saw many more anti-TITO posts than the ones I mentioned in my post above. Either way, it's still clear from all the Osiris threads that this operation was unpopular within the Osiris native community. Secondly, I would agree that removing the Osiris operation from the proposal would be a good start, perhaps something more universally agreed upon, unlike the clearly controversial Osiris occupation by TITO.

Also, there is a reason most people don't like TITO, and I don't think you quite understand why, so I will help elaborate it for you. People don't like the elitism displayed by some defender organizations, and many view TITO as one such display. The disregard of anti-TITO arguments as well further contributes to this. Perhaps instead of dismissing them, take them into account, and use them to your advantage, you might actually gain more members that way, instead of dismissing them as raiding idiots.

[Kuriko]

You guys should read the entirety of the Osiris threads to get the full story, which you obviously did not and decided to nitpick in order to backup the reasoning against the proposal. Anyways, THX and I are debating on removing Osiris from the proposal and replacing it with a different operation of significant importance.

Firstly, I did read the entire thread and saw many more anti-TITO posts than the ones I mentioned in my post above. Either way, it's still clear from all the Osiris threads that this operation was unpopular within the Osiris native community. Secondly, I would agree that removing the Osiris operation from the proposal would be a good start, perhaps something more universally agreed upon, unlike the clearly controversial Osiris occupation by TITO.

Also, there is a reason most people don't like TITO, and I don't think you quite understand why, so I will help elaborate it for you. People don't like the elitism displayed by some defender organizations, and many view TITO as one such display. The disregard of anti-TITO arguments as well further contributes to this. Perhaps instead of dismissing them, take them into account, and use them to your advantage, you might actually gain more members that way, instead of dismissing them as raiding idiots.

The only ones who don't like TITO and appreciate our help are those whose raids we stop, so if you have proof of a lot of people hating TITO other than raiders/Indies/imperialists then please bring them forward. As to your argument about the "native" community of Osiris at the time of it's creation, if you had read them then you would have seen this post by AMOM or this post by Goobergunchia about that very argument among many others. The argument on whether a nation can be classified as a native of a GCR if they moved into a newly created GCR within hours after it was founded is an old one, and I agree with Goobergunchia on the fact that that argument serves no other purpose when it comes to the creation of new GCRs hours within its founding other than for reasons of propaganda. Now if you want to argue about nativism overall, that's an argument we can have elsewhere.

[Novae Romae]

Firstly, I did read the entire thread and saw many more anti-TITO posts than the ones I mentioned in my post above. Either way, it's still clear from all the Osiris threads that this operation was unpopular within the Osiris native community. Secondly, I would agree that removing the Osiris operation from the proposal would be a good start, perhaps something more universally agreed upon, unlike the clearly controversial Osiris occupation by TITO.

Also, there is a reason most people don't like TITO, and I don't think you quite understand why, so I will help elaborate it for you. People don't like the elitism displayed by some defender organizations, and many view TITO as one such display. The disregard of anti-TITO arguments as well further contributes to this. Perhaps instead of dismissing them, take them into account, and use them to your advantage, you might actually gain more members that way, instead of dismissing them as raiding idiots.

The only ones who don't like TITO and appreciate our help are those whose raids we stop, so if you have proof of a lot of people hating TITO other than raiders/Indies/imperialists then please bring them forward. As to your argument about the "native" community of Osiris at the time of it's creation, if you had read them then you would have seen this post by AMOM or this post by Goobergunchia about that very argument among many others. The argument on whether a nation can be classified as a native of a GCR if they moved into a newly created GCR within hours after it was founded is an old one, and I agree with Goobergunchia on the fact that that argument serves no other purpose when it comes to the creation of new GCRs hours within its founding other than for reasons of propaganda. Now if you want to argue about nativism overall, that's an argument we can have elsewhere.

Again, you dismissed the entire point and in fact proved it! You denied any possibility that non-raiders don't like TITO and decided to impose some burden of proof when the proof is literally on the 1st page of this thread! Matter of fact, no, it's on the 1st AND the 2nd page of this thread. Here, let me show you below:

OOC: Because Joco is uncommendable

So is Markanite tbh.

OP should remove anything about Osiris from the draft - TITO's deployment to Osiris had nothing to do with ensuring democracy and everything to do with combating raiders.

A member of the North Pacific mind you, so not exactly a raiding region, lest you wish to say otherwise,

And if we are to go by the native view as stated by Topdop and Goobergunchia, then there are no natives within NationStates other than new nations founded in the Pacifics and Founders of regions. And the new nations of, at the time, a brand new region, why are they not natives because they moved there so soon yet others who move to other regions within say a day of their foundings are? In fact, while reading your post, my suggested time of one day is actually more than your time of mere hours, so those who moved within an hour of founding aren't natives? To be honest, this argument exists purely to validate TITO's operation within Osiris and it doesn't work once you clearly dissect it and see the clear self-validation attempt.

[Kuriko]

The only ones who don't like TITO and appreciate our help are those whose raids we stop, so if you have proof of a lot of people hating TITO other than raiders/Indies/imperialists then please bring them forward. As to your argument about the "native" community of Osiris at the time of it's creation, if you had read them then you would have seen this post by AMOM or this post by Goobergunchia about that very argument among many others. The argument on whether a nation can be classified as a native of a GCR if they moved into a newly created GCR within hours after it was founded is an old one, and I agree with Goobergunchia on the fact that that argument serves no other purpose when it comes to the creation of new GCRs hours within its founding other than for reasons of propaganda. Now if you want to argue about nativism overall, that's an argument we can have elsewhere.

Again, you dismissed the entire point and in fact proved it! You denied any possibility that non-raiders don't like TITO and decided to impose some burden of proof when the proof is literally on the 1st page of this thread! Matter of fact, no, it's on the 1st AND the 2nd page of this thread. Here, let me show you below:

So is Markanite tbh.

OP should remove anything about Osiris from the draft - TITO's deployment to Osiris had nothing to do with ensuring democracy and everything to do with combating raiders.

A member of the North Pacific mind you, so not exactly a raiding region, lest you wish to say otherwise,

And if we are to go by the native view as stated by Topdop and Goobergunchia, then there are no natives within NationStates other than new nations founded in the Pacifics and Founders of regions. And the new nations of, at the time, a brand new region, why are they not natives because they moved there so soon yet others who move to other regions within say a day of their foundings are? In fact, while reading your post, my suggested time of one day is actually more than your time of mere hours, so those who moved within an hour of founding aren't natives? To be honest, this argument exists purely to validate TITO's operation within Osiris and it doesn't work once you clearly dissect it and see the clear self-validation attempt.

First off, I do believe The Notorious Mad Jack is raider aligned even if he resides within TNP which validates my point. Secondly, who in the world believes nations that move in are considered natives within only a few hours of doing so? You have a really scewed sense of the idea of nativism if that's what you get out of this argument. Stop digging yourself into a bigger hole.

Edit: I don't really know you're alignment MadJack, so I'm sorry if what I said is offensive i don't mean it to be.

[Reinkalistani Osanta]

Again, you dismissed the entire point and in fact proved it! You denied any possibility that non-raiders don't like TITO and decided to impose some burden of proof when the proof is literally on the 1st page of this thread! Matter of fact, no, it's on the 1st AND the 2nd page of this thread. Here, let me show you below:



A member of the North Pacific mind you, so not exactly a raiding region, lest you wish to say otherwise,

And if we are to go by the native view as stated by Topdop and Goobergunchia, then there are no natives within NationStates other than new nations founded in the Pacifics and Founders of regions. And the new nations of, at the time, a brand new region, why are they not natives because they moved there so soon yet others who move to other regions within say a day of their foundings are? In fact, while reading your post, my suggested time of one day is actually more than your time of mere hours, so those who moved within an hour of founding aren't natives? To be honest, this argument exists purely to validate TITO's operation within Osiris and it doesn't work once you clearly dissect it and see the clear self-validation attempt.

First off, I do believe The Notorious Mad Jack is raider aligned even if he resides within TNP which validates my point. Secondly, who in the world believes nations that move in are considered natives within only a few hours of doing so? You have a really scewed sense of the idea of nativism if that's what you get out of this argument. Stop digging yourself into a bigger hole.

I mean, declaring anyone who provides a coherent point against you as 'raider-aligned' doesn't set a great precedent now, does it?

Nonetheless, I see where you're coming from. But I still stand that removing the Osiris section from the resolution is probably a good idea. It's very clear that TITO was not wanted there. I mean, it's generally not wanted full-stop, but it stands that their presence in Osiris was more unbearable than usual.

[Jabberwocky]

This well written proposal has my full and unstinting support

[Numero Capitan]

...If a raiding region had taken Osiris then, and acted exactly how TITO did, I don't think anyone would be listing it as a reason for commendation.

In what reality would a raider org enter another region, facilitate a structured, democratic election among natives as to the future of that region, transfer power in accordance with the will of the region's inhabitants, then depart?

This gave me a laugh

I would change the wording from 'safeguard' to 'facilitate', otherwise it suggests that Mark helped defend a democratic tradition that didn't already exist in the region. Whether individual nations think creating an environment for a more structured democracy in the region is commendable or otherwise is largely superfluous to the drafting process, there is no reason why it needs to be excluded from the proposal.

[The Notorious Mad Jack]

Again, you dismissed the entire point and in fact proved it! You denied any possibility that non-raiders don't like TITO and decided to impose some burden of proof when the proof is literally on the 1st page of this thread! Matter of fact, no, it's on the 1st AND the 2nd page of this thread. Here, let me show you below:



A member of the North Pacific mind you, so not exactly a raiding region, lest you wish to say otherwise,

And if we are to go by the native view as stated by Topdop and Goobergunchia, then there are no natives within NationStates other than new nations founded in the Pacifics and Founders of regions. And the new nations of, at the time, a brand new region, why are they not natives because they moved there so soon yet others who move to other regions within say a day of their foundings are? In fact, while reading your post, my suggested time of one day is actually more than your time of mere hours, so those who moved within an hour of founding aren't natives? To be honest, this argument exists purely to validate TITO's operation within Osiris and it doesn't work once you clearly dissect it and see the clear self-validation attempt.

First off, I do believe The Notorious Mad Jack is raider aligned even if he resides within TNP which validates my point. Secondly, who in the world believes nations that move in are considered natives within only a few hours of doing so? You have a really scewed sense of the idea of nativism if that's what you get out of this argument. Stop digging yourself into a bigger hole.

Edit: I don't really know you're alignment MadJack, so I'm sorry if what I said is offensive i don't mean it to be.

The North Pacific Army is independent - small i, big I independentism is dead, thankfully - and both raids and defends. As for myself, at the time of TITO's invasion of Osiris, I was a Lt in the United Defenders League - I went on to run Osiris' first military, which both raided and defended, and more recently I have been a member of the Black Hawks before returning to the NPA. I profess no alignment in R/D.

[THX1138]

I was a Lt in the United Defenders League - I went on to run Osiris' first military, which both raided and defended, and more recently I have been a member of the Black Hawks before returning to the NPA. I profess no alignment in R/D.

The Notorious Mad Jack of All Trades

[Kuriko]

So, here we are. The draft is updated, and the mention of Osiris has been replaced with another operation of significance. If there aren't any further objections, I want to submit this later today.

[Bhang Bhang Duc]

Can’t really comment on the substance of the draft Kuriko as it is very much TKI orientated. The only thing I would say is that I would rearrange the list of internal positions and put WAD first.

Other than that, good luck with this.

[Kuriko]

Can’t really comment on the substance of the draft Kuriko as it is very much TKI orientated. The only thing I would say is that I would rearrange the list of internal positions and put WAD first.

Other than that, good luck with this.

I did this before submission, thanks BBD

[Jocospor]

OOC: sigh Yet another piece of legislation by Kuriko - WA, when will you realise?

[Kuriko]

OOC: sigh Yet another piece of legislation by Kuriko - WA, when will you realise?

What's that supposed to mean?

[Praeceps]

OOC: sigh Yet another piece of legislation by Kuriko - WA, when will you realise?

What's that supposed to mean?

I believe the appropriate word here is jealousy.

[Lord Dominator]

OOC: sigh Yet another piece of legislation by Kuriko - WA, when will you realise?

What's that supposed to mean?

I think he wants me to write something

[Marxist Germany]

What's that supposed to mean?

I think he wants me to write something

OOC: Last time you did, it didn't go well for him

[South Reinkalistan]

OOC: (oh god they actually submitted it)

Seriously, if this passes, I will lose what little faith I had left in the WA.

[Kuriko]

OOC: (oh god they actually submitted it)

(Image)

Seriously, if this passes, I will lose what little faith I had left in the WA.

Why? Its an honest commendation of a nation more than worthy of it.