[NSNS] When a sinker is born...

[Rachel Anumia]

SL is there to help the region and we're holding elections as we speak. He holds no sword of damascus over the region. I'm not sure what your argument is. Just because SL is not neutral does not mean he can't act in a neutral capacity and I've been very impressed by his work. He has not said "I'm holding these forums for about a week before holding elections". That was something we had deliberated and discussed as a group.

I think the biggest difference between the two is that in Balder, we saw co-operation and in Osiris it was unilateral action that continues to be unilateral. Has TITO been discussing with members in the region what it wants to do? Or has it been dictating? It also seems that even TITO itself hasn't been discussing this with all of it's own members , given the answers of members such MinnaCaroline. I think TITO should communicate with the members of the region (rather than just telling them what to do) and work on getting it going not on their terms but on the regions terms and to do what's best for the region.

Surely, co-operation and communication is the answer?

[Fratt Armed Forces]

*wonders if Cerberion is thinking of a different SL*

[Rachel Anumia]

Maybe... it's Sovereign Liberties.

[Cerberion]

Then yeah, very much different SL. LOL

Serves me right for not looking at Balder.

Serves everyone right for using abbreviations :)

Let me give you another situation to think of. Let's say Kain and his merry band had not marched in, and TITO deployed much as Uni's folks did to set it up.

You'd still scream bloody murder. You'd scream even louder if a forum created by a TITO member had been put up, even if we gave the admin access to the legally appointed delegate.

Let's face it, the only way to take Osiris is to own their forum so that you have power over their community.

[Rachel Anumia]

All I'm saying, is why can't TITO communicate and co-operate with other members who share the goal of setting up a democratic region?

[Mahaj WA Seat]

Then yeah, very much different SL. LOL

Serves me right for not looking at Balder.

Serves everyone right for using abbreviations

Let me give you another situation to think of. Let's say Kain and his merry band had not marched in, and TITO deployed much as Uni's folks did to set it up.

You'd still scream bloody murder. You'd scream even louder if a forum created by a TITO member had been put up, even if we gave the admin access to the legally appointed delegate.

Let's face it, the only way to take Osiris is to own their forum so that you have power over their community.

Guess what? Osiris has a forum that people use, and thats in our IRC chat and stuff! But you insist on having Osiris's elections in the NS forums like Osiris is just some pawn.

[Cerberion]

Then yeah, very much different SL. LOL

Serves me right for not looking at Balder.

Serves everyone right for using abbreviations :)

Let me give you another situation to think of. Let's say Kain and his merry band had not marched in, and TITO deployed much as Uni's folks did to set it up.

You'd still scream bloody murder. You'd scream even louder if a forum created by a TITO member had been put up, even if we gave the admin access to the legally appointed delegate.

Let's face it, the only way to take Osiris is to own their forum so that you have power over their community.

Guess what? Osiris has a forum that people use, and thats in our IRC chat and stuff! But you insist on having Osiris's elections in the NS forums like Osiris is just some pawn.

Who's the admin of those forums?

[Mahaj WA Seat]

Guess what? Osiris has a forum that people use, and thats in our IRC chat and stuff! But you insist on having Osiris's elections in the NS forums like Osiris is just some pawn.

Who's the admin of those forums?

Kain the Dragoon, ToddMcCloud, Dalimbar, and Zaolat.

[Cerberion]

Who's the admin of those forums?

Kain the Dragoon, ToddMcCloud, Dalimbar, and Zaolat.

Yeah, maybe if it was a neutral forum...

[Fratt Armed Forces]

How many forums Todd is admin in?

[Dystopian Malisin]

TITO wants to control Osiris. It's that simple.

[Mahaj WA Seat]

Kain the Dragoon, ToddMcCloud, Dalimbar, and Zaolat.

Yeah, maybe if it was a neutral forum...

This is about as neutral as its going to get. You guys know that well, but yet you insist on this neutrality. Like you guys are The Neutral Region yourselves.

[Cerberion]

Yeah, maybe if it was a neutral forum...

This is about as neutral as its going to get. You guys know that well, but yet you insist on this neutrality. Like you guys are The Neutral Region yourselves.

One final comment and then I think I'm done with the dead horse.
Kain is the super admin right? he who can delete all other admin?

If so, start a forum run by a truly neutral player as the ultimate owner, and we'll call it neutral.

[Mahaj WA Seat]

This is about as neutral as its going to get. You guys know that well, but yet you insist on this neutrality. Like you guys are The Neutral Region yourselves.

One final comment and then I think I'm done with the dead horse.
Kain is the super admin right? he who can delete all other admin?

If so, start a forum run by a truly neutral player as the ultimate owner, and we'll call it neutral.

He is not. I listed him first because my listing was random, he is not. Zao is (he's the second highest endod native FYI)

[Kshrlmnt]

My, I wonder how the story would have read if Kain had gotten enough Endo's.

Moreover, I wonder what the WFE would have read?
Bet you I know what the flag would have looked like.

So interesting how attitudes change from thread to thread. If Kain was in the seat would there have been a thread similar to TPC Poetically invaded? A thread gloating over the triumph of NBE's subjugation of Osiris? I think perhaps the answer to that is "very likely".

But of course, every time things go awry it's some wonderfully high moral stand taken by the invader group, about how they were helping the community and how evil TITO are.

Same old rhetoric, from the same old faces. It's almost comforting in it's predictability.

Also to: http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=690710

I disagree. I'm not going for the delegacy myself, and you know why? There's nothing to raid, and I don't particularly want to control a sinker. Sure, large regions are fun to raid, and anyone could come out on top here, but it'd be like conquering Somalia over conquering the US (no offense to either). The first isn't *not* a challenge, but then you have to deal with the mess, and if you're there to just stick your flag in the place and claim it you're only going to annoy the people who were trying to clean up. The second is a real challenge, and you're not going to be buried under the 20 other people going for the place.

It's somewhat arrogant to take it upon yourself to be the neutral party officiating elections, but hey, I gotta admit it's useful. But Osiris isn't a region that exactly has natives, not yet. It's a new thing and if XKI wants to be fair and give everyone a chance, they should give raiders a chance, too. Contrary to the training manuals, raiders don't spend all their days bouncing around NS destroying poor innocent regions. Raiders can be regionbuilders, too, you know, and Kain's actually quite an excellent one.

[Ghostbusters]

TITO wants to control Osiris. It's that simple.

TITO wants to controls Osiris. It's that simple.

There fixed that for you. You know what else is simple? Take it from them! (Although that works better when you have actual WA nations in the region instead of a bunch of noisy puppets... so it appears you're out of luck.)

[Mahaj WA Seat]

My, I wonder how the story would have read if Kain had gotten enough Endo's.

Moreover, I wonder what the WFE would have read?
Bet you I know what the flag would have looked like.

So interesting how attitudes change from thread to thread. If Kain was in the seat would there have been a thread similar to TPC Poetically invaded? A thread gloating over the triumph of NBE's subjugation of Osiris? I think perhaps the answer to that is "very likely".

But of course, every time things go awry it's some wonderfully high moral stand taken by the invader group, about how they were helping the community and how evil TITO are.

Same old rhetoric, from the same old faces. It's almost comforting in it's predictability.

Also to: http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=690710

I disagree. I'm not going for the delegacy myself, and you know why? There's nothing to raid, and I don't particularly want to control a sinker. Sure, large regions are fun to raid, and anyone could come out on top here, but it'd be like conquering Somalia over conquering the US (no offense to either). The first isn't *not* a challenge, but then you have to deal with the mess, and if you're there to just stick your flag in the place and claim it you're only going to annoy the people who were trying to clean up. The second is a real challenge, and you're not going to be buried under the 20 other people going for the place.

It's somewhat arrogant to take it upon yourself to be the neutral party officiating elections, but hey, I gotta admit it's useful. But Osiris isn't a region that exactly has natives, not yet. It's a new thing and if XKI wants to be fair and give everyone a chance, they should give raiders a chance, too. Contrary to the training manuals, raiders don't spend all their days bouncing around NS destroying poor innocent regions. Raiders can be regionbuilders, too, you know, and Kain's actually quite an excellent one.

You have well thought out points. Unfortunately, TITO is obliged to disagree with you, else they'll be kicked out by The Chief Raider himself, Grub.

[Kommandant Von Gest]

Well I at least hope this means that I won't hear anymore about how noble and moral the defenders are. This is an example of pure Realpolitik with the defenders seeking to install their own handpicked on the sinkers.

Ostensibly the defenders will argue that they're installing democracies but this is a sham. In the end the delegates shall be some safe milquetoast pick.

[Goobergunchia]

At this time I have not recognized any government as legitimate in the regions "Osiris" or "Balder". I am waiting and seeing what arises in said regions before recognizing anything. Until then, I'm staying out.

I also don't think the term "native" is appropriate to use in these regions. Let's face it, everybody in there was either (1) refounded in the last couple days or (2) moved in during the last couple days. It's always been difficult to classify "natives" in game-created regions, and in the case of game-created regions this new, I think trying to draw that distinction is useless outside of propaganda.

Also, I think the last few days have illustrated just how different the approaches of various defenders can be. (Note I'm speaking only for myself in this post.)

Goobergunchia
Nasicournian Officer
Citizen of the Rejected Realms

[Evil Wolf]

Defenders, by their nature, are suppose to be reactionary, not proactive. XKI doesn't quite seem to understand that, and thinks that simply because they proclaim themselves "defenders" it makes it true, which is far from the case.

[Tim-Opolis]

Defenders, by their nature, are suppose to be reactionary, not proactive. XKI doesn't quite seem to understand that, and thinks that simply because they proclaim themselves "defenders" it makes it true, which is far from the case.

You couldn't have just said that TITO is a bunch of raiders posing as defenders?

[Tim-Opolis]

How many forums Todd is admin in?

OVER 9000!!!

[Evil Wolf]

You couldn't have just said that TITO is a bunch of raiders posing as defenders?

And insult raiders everywhere? I think not.

You know, General Powell of DEN once came up with a phrase for the sort of group that TITO is, one that pretends to defend but is really only acting in their own interests. He called them "Offenders" which was later shortened down to "Fenda".

[Tim-Opolis]

You couldn't have just said that TITO is a bunch of raiders posing as defenders?

And insult raiders everywhere? I think not.

You know, General Powell of DEN once came up with a phrase for the sort of group that TITO is, one that pretends to defend but is really only acting in their own interests. He called them "Offenders" which was later shortened down to "Fenda".

Interesting... So that's where fenda comes from....

[Evil Wolf]

Yes, people commonly associate it as raider slang for "Defender" but they are using the word incorrectly if they use it as such.