MAGAThread XVI: Raising the Barr

[San Lumen]

Why the construction crews following this order? https://mobile.twitter.com/laikenjordah ... g-his-wall
Gorgeous irreplaceable saguaro cactus are being bulldozed in Organ Pipe National monument to build the stupid wall. How can anyone condone or support this and follow orders to build it? I wish his orders would start being defined. The environment matters more than a stupid wall

Wiping out the environment and driving living things to extinction to Own The Libs.

I truly do wonder if that’s the rationale sometimes

[Gormwood]

Tucker Carlson says Trump's Ukraine call was inappropriate: 'There's no way to spin this'

When Tucker says Donny fucked up in even his minimizing ways, you know there's a disturbance in the Force.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

Tucker Carlson says Trump's Ukraine call was inappropriate: 'There's no way to spin this'

When Tucker says Donny fucked up in even his minimizing ways, you know there's a disturbance in the Force.

They're jumping ship; Donny fucked up with the deep state (somehow), and Pence is gearing up to go.

[San Lumen]

Tucker Carlson says Trump's Ukraine call was inappropriate: 'There's no way to spin this'

When Tucker says Donny fucked up in even his minimizing ways, you know there's a disturbance in the Force.

They're jumping ship; Donny fucked up with the deep state (somehow), and Pence is gearing up to go.

Hopefully Fox News decides to turn on him completely

[Nakena]

Awwh.

This doesn't looks good for our Chaos Spawn pet in the White House.

[Moral Absolutism Inc]

Tucker Carlson says Trump's Ukraine call was inappropriate: 'There's no way to spin this'

When Tucker says Donny fucked up in even his minimizing ways, you know there's a disturbance in the Force.

They're jumping ship; Donny fucked up with the deep state (somehow), and Pence is gearing up to go.

He had 2 perfect opportunities to attack enemy Iran. First the drone on the ships in the Persian Gulf. Second the massive attack on the Saudi Oil fields. He showed his true colors and backed down. The fourth branch of government spent trillions on those four military bases in Iraq. Those bases are not built there at the cost of trillions for R & R. Next Bolton quit and days later the NSS cut loose the whistleblower complaint. Seems to me he's been marked out, but not with violent methods for now. He's knows he's likely being shown the gate. He'd be a fool to not resign. These people mean serious business, Mitch holds the keys and will abide by the NSS wishes. He's is no fool. However, Donald plays one every day.

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

They're jumping ship; Donny fucked up with the deep state (somehow), and Pence is gearing up to go.

He had 2 perfect opportunities to attack enemy Iran. First the drone on the ships in the Persian Gulf. Second the massive attack on the Saudi Oil fields. He showed his true colors and backed down. The fourth branch of government spent trillions on those four military bases in Iraq. Those bases are not built there at the cost of trillions for R & R. Next Bolton quit and days later the NSS cut loose the whistleblower complaint. Seems to me he's been marked out, but not with violent methods for now. He's knows he's likely being shown the gate. He'd be a fool to not resign. These people mean serious business, Mitch holds the keys and will abide by the NSS wishes. He's is no fool. However, Donald plays one every day.

This sure will be interesting. Looking forward to my relatives claiming that "we never *really* supported Trump."

[San Lumen]

They're jumping ship; Donny fucked up with the deep state (somehow), and Pence is gearing up to go.

He had 2 perfect opportunities to attack enemy Iran. First the drone on the ships in the Persian Gulf. Second the massive attack on the Saudi Oil fields. He showed his true colors and backed down. The fourth branch of government spent trillions on those four military bases in Iraq. Those bases are not built there at the cost of trillions for R & R. Next Bolton quit and days later the NSS cut loose the whistleblower complaint. Seems to me he's been marked out, but not with violent methods for now. He's knows he's likely being shown the gate. He'd be a fool to not resign. These people mean serious business, Mitch holds the keys and will abide by the NSS wishes. He's is no fool. However, Donald plays one every day.

He will never resign. I very much doubt this plays out like Nixon. The senate will never convict him. They are too afraid of primary challenges

[Jean-Paul Sartre]

He had 2 perfect opportunities to attack enemy Iran. First the drone on the ships in the Persian Gulf. Second the massive attack on the Saudi Oil fields. He showed his true colors and backed down. The fourth branch of government spent trillions on those four military bases in Iraq. Those bases are not built there at the cost of trillions for R & R. Next Bolton quit and days later the NSS cut loose the whistleblower complaint. Seems to me he's been marked out, but not with violent methods for now. He's knows he's likely being shown the gate. He'd be a fool to not resign. These people mean serious business, Mitch holds the keys and will abide by the NSS wishes. He's is no fool. However, Donald plays one every day.

He will never resign. I very much doubt this plays out like Nixon. The senate will never convict him. They are too afraid of primary challenges

The catch twenty-two: someone who is very quickly going senile is now too loose cannon for even the republicans to control, but they can't admit that.

[Great Minarchistan]

Tucker Carlson says Trump's Ukraine call was inappropriate: 'There's no way to spin this'

When Tucker says Donny fucked up in even his minimizing ways, you know there's a disturbance in the Force.

They're jumping ship; Donny fucked up with the deep state (somehow), and Pence is gearing up to go.

potus pence would be interesting

[Nakena]

This sure will be interesting. Looking forward to my relatives claiming that "we never *really* supported Trump."

There will be very few who would have supported Trump if he falls.

So all those people too closely aligned to him have an vested interest in keeping him in power. For when he falls, they will do so alongside him.

Him asking the PRC though about the Biden thing may have been kill however.

He will never resign. I very much doubt this plays out like Nixon. The senate will never convict him. They are too afraid of primary challenges

The catch twenty-two: someone who is very quickly going senile is now too loose cannon for even the republicans to control, but they can't admit that.

He's a literal Chaos Spawn at this moment.

A Chaos Spawn is a mindless mutant creature who once belonged to one of the intelligent races of the galaxy and who has become so mutated through his or her servitude to Chaos that he or she has devolved into a twisted and insane abomination. Those seeking immortality and power through the ultimate attainment of daemonhood in service to the Ruinous Powers face the constant possibility of being reduced to Chaos Spawn, either by accumulating too many mutations or being cast aside by their Chaos patrons as unworthy of further advancement because of their consistent failure to serve the will of the Chaos Gods.

More simply, they may lack the inherent qualities required for successful leadership of other Chaos servants and thus be of no further use to their patrons. Chaos warband members who are transformed into Chaos Spawn will either be abandoned by their former comrades or kept as pets or as cannon fodder, to be herded into battle along with the rest of the Lost and the Damned.

Although physically powerful and extremely resilient, Chaos Spawn are insane, mewling creatures with no mental powers or self-awareness. Their former intelligence has been sacrificed to their failed ambition. Many a Chaos Champion of great promise has ended up as a seething mound of bone and blubber, monstrous and screaming with lunatic rage.

[Geneviev]

They're jumping ship; Donny fucked up with the deep state (somehow), and Pence is gearing up to go.

potus pence would be interesting

I hope that doesn't happen.

[Great Minarchistan]

potus pence would be interesting

I hope that doesn't happen.

why not? pence is arguably much more well measured and reasonable than trump

[Geneviev]

I hope that doesn't happen.

why not? pence is arguably much more well measured and reasonable than trump

That's part of the problem. He has more extreme views and would be capable of doing something.

[Nakena]

potus pence would be interesting

I hope that doesn't happen.

There's still chances Trump can recover in the long run but the Biden/PRC thing was a serious and potentially fatal mistake in an already critical situation.

A few or even one more such thing and it might be game over.

[Peoples Republic of Xabia]

To be honest Yang's UBI makes sense. Too bad the rest of his platform sucks and the MSM is treading on him.

[The Greater Ohio Valley]

Does that mean that no American President can ask a foreign country for an investigation into corruption of US Citizens, as long as they're running in the primaries against his party?

You do realize how bad it is for the President of the United States to solicit foreign governments to “investigate” his political opposition, right? Especially since theres already an apparatus to investigate things that doesn’t necessitate the solicitation of foreign governments.

[Grand Britannia]

To be honest Yang's UBI makes sense. Too bad the rest of his platform sucks and the MSM is treading on him.

That's one of the least things that make sense in his platform.

[San Lumen]

Nah. It’s a pretty clean violation of the Emoluments Clause. None of this “reasonable doubt.”

Does that mean that no American President can ask a foreign country for an investigation into corruption of US Citizens, as long as they're running in the primaries against his party?

It is against federal law for the president to solicit foreign assistance to investigate their political opposition

[Peoples Republic of Xabia]

To be honest Yang's UBI makes sense. Too bad the rest of his platform sucks and the MSM is treading on him.

That's one of the least things that make sense in his platform.

I don't disagree entirely; but it's a hell of a lot more sensible and will cause less inflation than raising minimum wage would.

[Grand Britannia]

That's one of the least things that make sense in his platform.

I don't disagree entirely; but it's a hell of a lot more sensible and will cause less inflation than raising minimum wage would.

Inflation is the least of your worries when it would cause the national budget to skyrocket and make the deficit worse than it is.

inb4 tax the rich

[Shofercia]

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ukrain ... ment-files



Straight from Biden's mouth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpQZ0e-Ux7w



Sounds like someone threatened Ukraine's leadership to fire a prosecutor, or else the loans would be withheld. Hmm, isn't that what Trump's being accused of?

Sorry I missed this for a bit. Yes Vice President Biden got the prosecutor fired, which had been a long term objective of a number of Western nations and institutions.

Politifact:

• We found no evidence to support the idea that Joe Biden advocated with his son's interests in mind, as the message suggests. It's not even clear that the company was actively under investigation or that a change in prosecutors benefited it.

New York Times

No evidence has surfaced that the former vice president intentionally tried to help his son by pressing for the prosecutor general’s dismissal.

CNN:

But there is no public evidence that Hunter Biden was ever himself under investigation.
...
"Hunter Biden did not violate any Ukrainian laws -- at least as of now, we do not see any wrongdoing," Shokin's successor as prosecutor general, Yuriy Lutsenko, told Bloomberg.

FactCheck

But the U.S. was not alone in pressuring Ukraine to fire Shokin.
...
However, there is no evidence that Hunter Biden was ever under investigation or that his father pressured Ukraine to fire Shokin on his behalf.

EDIT: I pushed this out fast because I had to go do some chores, but I now have some time to expand on the issue. Outside of the notes from Giuliani’s meeting with Shokin there has been no evidence put forward that Vice President Biden acted improperly in any way by attempting to get the Shokin fired, after all Shokin was believed to be corrupt by a number of nations and institutions. I'm sure there would be no reason for Shokin, who had only been fired because of corruption allegations and pressure by Biden, to lie to Giuliani, the personal lawyer to President Trump and who was explicitly looking for dirt on Vice President Biden.

Plus the old Ukrainian Prosecutor, the one who just left office recently, has stated he never saw evidence of Hunter Biden committing any crimes. And the newest Ukrainian Prosecutor has stated he is unaware of any evidence of wrongdoing.

[

1. Is there actual evidence of Obama specifically asking Shokin to be fired?
2. They wanted Ukraine to crack down on corruption so badly, that they allowed Doctor Death to remain in charge... Sorry, I don't buy that bullshit. Let's take a look about what president-elect Zelensky had to say about Doctor Death, aka Ulana Suprun, the "doctor" the US sent to fight corruption: http://www.ukrweekly.com/uwwp/in-brusse ... ean-union/



Ha-ha-ha indeed. Next up, in order to fight banking corruption, let's have banks write regulations!

3. Fair point.

4. Then why didn't the Burisma Investigation continue? Biden or not, the company isn't exactly pristine, and what experience qualified Hunter Biden to make $600,000 a year as a Burisma executive if he wasn't selling access?

1. That President Obama himself asked for it? No. That is was a goal of the Obama administration before Biden was involved? Yes. Also that it was the goal of the EU, IMF and other groups to remove the prosecutor before Vice President Biden got involved.

2. Yes the US, EU, and others wanted Ukraine to crack down on corruption. They supported corruption investigations, including investigations into the company Hunter Biden was working for. Of course a political opponent is going to say nasty things about people working on the other side, I don't see how the ministry of health has anything to do with the top prosecutor. The US supported Lutsenko, the guy who followed Shokin as head of the Prosecutors office, even while he was investigating Zlochevsky, head of the company Hunter Biden worked for.

4. There were a number of investigations of the company, but Lutsenko cleared Zlochevsky after taking office. I will agree that Hunter Biden probably got his post as an attempt to get inside the Obama presidency, however there has been no evidence that hiring Hunter Biden got them any real access or special favors. I would also feel remiss if I didn't point out that Hunter Biden himself has a law degree from Yale, has been a business executive, worked in the commerce department, lobbyist, and founded an investment firm. Certainly if you just looked at the highlights of his career there would be a reason to hire him to a large company.

It was not clear that Burisma was under investigation? Short of yet another Biden gaffe, it's impossible to determine Biden's state of mind, and whether or not he had his son's interests at heart, or the interests of Burisma, but to claim that one of Ukraine's leading natural gas companies is pristine, is rather laughable.

Let's step away from political bias, and look at reality, shall we? It is beyond a reasonable doubt that Zelenskyy is less corrupt than Poroshenko. Considering everything that's going on in Ukraine, $600,000 is small potatoes, so it might not be critical to Ukraine to investigate Hunter Biden. However, the investigation of Burisma Holdings is another story. It should also be noted that initially Burisma was jointly owned by Zlochevsky and Lisin, and ended up passing to Zlochevsky after Lisin died in a car accident; nothing suspicious about that at all.

Burisma is also registered through Cyprus, which is typically used to register entities that dodge Eastern European taxes, but that's also just a pure coincidence, right? And Zlochevsky just happened to take a vacation away from Ukraine, while the company was investigated, but hey, that's also coincidental, he's just a hard worker that needed a vacation. It's also among Ukraine's largest privately owned companies, meaning that it went through a period of gangster capitalism and privatization, but just happened to come out on top in a pristine manner. It's all just a coincidence for poor, poor, poor Burisma.

It's entirely possible that Hunter's role was simply to prevent the US from sanctioning certain individuals, or to turn a blind eye to international prosecution of tax evasion, and considering that Ukraine's tax evasion laws are laughably enforced, it's entirely possible that Hunter Biden didn't break any Ukrainian laws. But to claim that Burisma is not shady... I mean that would only happen to media that found WMDs in Iraq.

1. Considering the sheer degree of corruption in Ukraine under Poroshenko, any prosecutor investigating anything would've been charged with not doing enough to fight corruption. Zelenskyy's entire platform was "we're going to fight corruption spawned under Poroshenko" and look at how Ukrainians reacted. 62% turnout, 73% in favor of Zelenskyy. You want to tell me that CNN knows more about Ukrainian corruption than Ukrainians actually living there? Or Polifact? Or NY Times? or Factcheck? Puh-lease. Any prosecutor would've been turned into a scapegoat, so that happening to Shokin doesn't exonerate Burisma.

2. Obama wanted lots of things, but foreign policy wise he was a miserable failure. Didn't he also say that ISIS was junior varsity? How did Doctor Death factor into America fighting corruption in Ukraine? Because if you're going to fight corruption, you're probably not going to appoint Doctor Death to the Ministry of Health. And yet, that's what happened under the Obama Administration.

Zelenskyy, who won by a record landslide, stated in crystal clear terms: Suprun? Ha-ha-ha. Well, there are different attitudes towards her. You know how she is called [Doctor death], don’t you know? Thank god I have another doctor in my family

If the Obama Administration was actually fighting corruption in Ukraine, they wouldn't have supported Suprun's appointment: https://www.greanvillepost.com/2017/12/ ... eful-kiev/

Even more striking is that under the watchful eye of the Ukrainian-American Diaspora’s Ulana Suprun, Ukraine’s Health Minister has pushed Ukraine to legalize the organ trade. Ukraine used to lead the world in the illegal organ trade but it has now legalized it and the Ukrainian government now takes your loved one’s organs without consent.

Suprun’s idea of health reform is destroying the health care for heart patients by denying them medications for life-threatening conditions. Borys Todurov, head of the Heart Institute in Kiev and a heart surgeon accused Suprun of negligence that he claimed has led to thousands of patients’ deaths. “I absolutely responsibly declare (and I can repeat it in court) that your negligence took more lives of Ukrainians than the war in recent years,” Todurov said.”

Suprun has likewise destroyed cancer treatment in Ukraine. She did this by systematically refusing to purchase the medications needed to treat cancers, heart conditions, and disease. Her idea of giving children a great start was to just not purchase the vaccinations children normally receive against childhood diseases. To what extent you might ask? Documented vaccinations dropped from 96% in 2007 to 20% in 2017.

Organ trading. Anti vaccination. Throwing cancer patients under the bus. Just another day of the Obama Administration fighting corruption in Ukraine. Here's an actual Ukrainian doctor: https://www.kyivpost.com/ukraine-politi ... forms.html

Ukraine’s Health Ministry, headed by Ukrainian-American Ulana Suprun since July, has found itself in a public confrontation with an acclaimed surgeon over the ministry’s massive health reform. Borys Todurov, a heart surgeon and head of the Heart Institute in Kyiv, accused Suprun of negligence that he claimed has led to thousands of patients’ deaths. In a statement he published on Facebook on Jan. 1, Todurov said that the work of his Heart Institute had been blocked, as the ministry failed drug procurement tenders and failed to carry out planned supplies of medicine and equipment to the institute. The surgeon also blamed the Health Ministry for preventing him from opening the branches of the Heart Institute in Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts. “Run, before I sue you,” Todurov wrote, addressing the ministry’s top officials.

Such corruption fighting, much wow. Although it technically could be fighting corruption - if you have no patients left, you have no medical corruption, problem solved.

4. Let's take a look at what you wrote for Hunter Biden: I would also feel remiss if I didn't point out that Hunter Biden himself has a law degree from Yale, has been a business executive, worked in the commerce department, lobbyist, and founded an investment firm.

1. law degree from Yale - and nice Yale connections to go with that - hey, have you heard of that landmark Hunter Biden legal victory? Me neither.

2. has been a business executive - getting a head start from the organization that heavily contributed to his father's campaign

3. worked in the commerce department - and the connections he built there are probably more valuable than his experience

4. lobbyist - this is a good thing ?!

5. founded an investment firm - with John Kerry's stepson...

Once again - you're proving my point. He was hired for his connections, and knowledge of how to influence said connections. Whether or not he influenced them is another story.

[Shofercia]

Tucker Carlson says Trump's Ukraine call was inappropriate: 'There's no way to spin this'

When Tucker says Donny fucked up in even his minimizing ways, you know there's a disturbance in the Force.

And here's what Tucker actually said: https://dailycaller.com/2019/10/03/tuck ... peachment/

Donald Trump should not have been on the phone with a foreign head of state encouraging another country to investigate his political opponent, Joe Biden. Some Republicans are trying, but there’s no way to spin this as a good idea. Like a lot of things Trump does, it was pretty over-the-top. Our leaders’ official actions should not be about politics. Those two things need to remain separate. Once those in control of our government use it to advance their political goals, we become just another of the world’s many corrupt countries. America is better than that. That’s also why it’s good that there are finally investigations looking into the extent to which the Obama FBI may have used our government — and even foreign governments — to try to crush Trump in the last election.

The key question with Trump’s Ukraine call, though, is whether the president’s actions, advisable or not, rise to the level of an impeachable offense. It’s hard to argue they do. The president did not, as was first reported, offer a quid pro quo to the Ukrainians. He did not condition any U.S. support on a Biden investigation. The Justice Department has already looked at the totality of the call and determined that Trump did not break the law.

Impeaching a president is the most extreme and anti-democratic remedy we have in our system of government. A fundamental cornerstone of our entire system is to respect the will of the voters. The American people elected Trump president of the United States, though a huge part of our political class has never been able to stomach it. They think Trump is unfit to be our president. They definitely don’t want to address seriously the issues that drove voters to the radical step of voting in Trump as our president — issues such as income inequality, economic stagnation and our broken immigration system. It’s easier to pretend that this was all the result of a few Russian Facebook ads or because the same American people who had just elected Barack Obama somehow transformed overnight into a bunch of racists.

So, now, as we are on the eve of another election season, our political class wants to take the most recent election away from the voters. Millions of Americans voted for Trump to try to shock our political system into finally listening to their concerns. How do you suppose they’ll feel about a system that instead removes Trump from our democracy? You don’t have to be an especially deep thinker to realize this is a recipe for social upheaval.

Nancy Pelosi has been right all these months when she’s repeatedly said that to be legitimate, impeachment must be bipartisan. Anything less would tear apart our country, she said. In this area, Pelosi is echoing the sentiment a senator expressed during the Clinton impeachment process:

“While the founders included impeachment powers in the Constitution, they were concerned by the potential partisan abuse. We should be no less aware of the dangers of partisanship. As we have seen, the process functions best when there is a broad bipartisan consensus behind moving ahead. The country is not well served when either policy disagreements or personal animosities drive the process.”

Those words ring true today. They were set forth in 1998 by then-Sen. Joe Biden.

The truth is there’s a large part of the left — and some never-Trumpers on the right — who never accepted Trump’s election and have wanted him impeached from the start. The Washington Post ran a piece headlined “The campaign to impeach President Trump has begun” on Jan. 20, 2017 — inauguration day. Talk about no honeymoon — and no respect for America’s voters.

Concerns about the political nature of what we’re seeing were exacerbated when we learned the so-called whistleblower who reported Trump’s Ukraine call was in touch with Rep. Adam Schiff — the Democrats’ lead on impeachment — even before he came forward to the public with his charges. Privately colluding with the staff of some of Trump’s biggest political opponents? That seems a little partisan for a good government whistleblower. It also seems pretty clear that Schiff was dishonest when he went on TV and directly denied prior contact with the whistleblower. None of this means Schiff should be removed from office, but by the standards he’s setting, he certainly could be.

A lot of people in Washington — in both parties — aren’t Trump fans. They complain that Trump doesn’t act the way most presidents act, that his attacks against his opponents are not presidential, that he lacks the requisite political experience and has hired some truly horrible staffers. There may be truth to some of that. Trump has certainly shaken up Washington. His supporters would argue that’s exactly what they wanted him to do. This is a legitimate debate worth having. Fortunately, America’s founders set up a pretty good system to have just this sort of debate every four years: It’s called an election. The next one’s already started. The facts are out there for the American people to weigh as they make their decision. How about we let them sort all this out? There’s no need to come up with thin excuses for a purely partisan impeachment process when we have an election right around the corner.

[Tekeristan]

I don't disagree entirely; but it's a hell of a lot more sensible and will cause less inflation than raising minimum wage would.

Inflation is the least of your worries when it would cause the national budget to skyrocket and make the deficit worse than it is.

inb4 tax the rich

Wanna know why the rich pay a lot of it, even in that think tank?
Because they're the ones that have all of it, lol
The graph for total wealth? How is that measured against debt? How are they measured as individual sums within brackets/spread out between all the people within the column? The bottom 50% of working people have 11.6% of the gross income, that is very different from 1% of the population receiving nigh 20% of the total income, especially as a group that has been having its taxes cut for decades.

Woe is the rich bougie, who owns billions and hides lots of it off seas, after pressuring the gov't to cut their taxes for decades, who gave the gov't loans to make up for the increasing deficit (and be paid back for said loans), and benefits from ever-increasing inequality. I'm sure they're absolutely burdened after draining the wealth of Americans and the public treasury for decades.

[Peoples Republic of Xabia]

We're overtaxed north of the border. The 1% are already taxed quite enough; they comprise 98% of our tax income.
I'm no American (though I plan on getting dual citizenship in the future as a native) but I imagine the situation in America is a bit more of the same.