Islamic Discussion Thread ٥: Free Tajweed, Absolutely Halaal

[Jolthig]

The last bit is just silly. Supporters of LGBT are liberals while Muslims who are still in their right minds are either neutral or conservative...sometimes too conservative.

I consider myself in a right mind, but I am muslim who supports LGBTQ+ rights.

I do as well. Especially given that we are in non Muslim countries and theres no compulsion in faith. If we let Christians or pagans despite us disagreeing with their ways, then so can we with LGBT rights.

[Samudera Darussalam]

I consider myself in a right mind, but I am muslim who supports LGBTQ+ rights.

The supporting part is quite subjective, I believe. I just looking it up on the internet, and the ayah on the People of Lot has many interpretations than simply condemnation on homosexuality, but also rapes and showing inhospitability towards one's guests.

Rapes definitely harm more than simply acts of LGBTQ+, so I guess you're safe. I'm leaning towards neutral on this matter, btw.

[Jolthig]

I consider myself in a right mind, but I am muslim who supports LGBTQ+ rights.

The supporting part is quite subjective, I believe. I just looking it up on the internet, and the ayah on the People of Lot has many interpretations than simply condemnation on homosexuality, but also rapes and showing inhospitability towards one's guests.

Rapes definitely harm more than simply acts of LGBTQ+, so I guess you're safe. I'm leaning towards neutral on this matter, btw.

I myself am neutral, but when it comes to secular nations especially, I do support LGBT rights. In faith however, homosexuality is a sin.

[Al Mumtahanah]

To be a Muslim you must believe Muhammad is the final prophet.

The last bit is just silly. Supporters of LGBT are liberals while Muslims who are still in their right minds are either neutral or conservative...sometimes too conservative.

I consider myself in a right mind, but I am muslim who supports LGBTQ+ rights.

A Muslim who supports gay marriage or gay pride is a munafiq

[Al Mumtahanah]

I consider myself in a right mind, but I am muslim who supports LGBTQ+ rights.

The supporting part is quite subjective, I believe. I just looking it up on the internet, and the ayah on the People of Lot has many interpretations than simply condemnation on homosexuality, but also rapes and showing inhospitability towards one's guests.

Rapes definitely harm more than simply acts of LGBTQ+, so I guess you're safe. I'm leaning towards neutral on this matter, btw.

Some guy looking it up on the internet is now more knowledgeable than over a thousand years of Muslim scholarship?


The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) referenced the sin multiple times and said it is to be treated as adultery. All of the four rightly-guided caliphs understood this.

[Jolthig]

To be a Muslim you must believe Muhammad is the final prophet.

I consider myself in a right mind, but I am muslim who supports LGBTQ+ rights.

A Muslim who supports gay marriage or gay pride is a munafiq

Which is basically a takfir of myself for being Ahmadi? There is nothing in the kalima that indicates such.

[A m e n r i a]

I'm sorry for potentially derailing our current topic, but does anyone have a citation on the fact that Shariah cannot be imposed on non-Muslims? Thanks.

[Al Mumtahanah]

I'm sorry for potentially derailing our current topic, but does anyone have a citation on the fact that Shariah cannot be imposed on non-Muslims? Thanks.

The Sunnah, Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) ruled the People of the Book according to their own laws, not Shariaa.

[A m e n r i a]

I'm sorry for potentially derailing our current topic, but does anyone have a citation on the fact that Shariah cannot be imposed on non-Muslims? Thanks.

The Sunnah, Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) ruled the People of the Book according to their own laws, not Shariaa.

Could you please be more specific? Like the exact number of the sunnah in question?

[Al Mumtahanah]

To be a Muslim you must believe Muhammad is the final prophet.



A Muslim who supports gay marriage or gay pride is a munafiq

Which is basically a takfir of myself for being Ahmadi? There is nothing in the kalima that indicates such.

You takfir yourself. Your signature refers to your beliefs not as aqidah, but as a distinct ummah. No one would say the Athari community or the Ashari community or the Maturidi community because none is a distinct Ummah, they are each an aqidah of the Ummah

The Sunnah, Muhammad (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) ruled the People of the Book according to their own laws, not Shariaa.

Could you please be more specific? Like the exact number of the sunnah in question?

Dawud 4431

[Jolthig]

Which is basically a takfir of myself for being Ahmadi? There is nothing in the kalima that indicates such.

You takfir yourself. Your signature refers to your beliefs not as aqidah, but as a distinct ummah. No one would say the Athari community or the Ashari community or the Maturidi community because none is a distinct Ummah, they are each an aqidah of the Ummah

Could you please be more specific? Like the exact number of the sunnah in question?

Dawud 4431

How am I takfiring myself?

No, we are part of the same Ummah as the rest of Muslims.

[Al Mumtahanah]

You takfir yourself. Your signature refers to your beliefs not as aqidah, but as a distinct ummah. No one would say the Athari community or the Ashari community or the Maturidi community because none is a distinct Ummah, they are each an aqidah of the Ummah


Dawud 4431

How am I takfiring myself?

No, we are part of the same Ummah as the rest of Muslims.

You refer to your sect as a distinct community (ummah).

[Jolthig]

How am I takfiring myself?

No, we are part of the same Ummah as the rest of Muslims.

You refer to your sect as a distinct community (ummah).

Where did I say that?

[Al Mumtahanah]

You refer to your sect as a distinct community (ummah).

Where did I say that?

In your signature

[Jolthig]

Where did I say that?

In your signature

It doesn't say I'm a distinct Ummah. It's a community of the organization of Ahmadiyya in of itself

[Al Mumtahanah]

In your signature

It doesn't say I'm a distinct Ummah. It's a community of the organization of Ahmadiyya in of itself

That IS an Ummah.

[Jolthig]

It doesn't say I'm a distinct Ummah. It's a community of the organization of Ahmadiyya in of itself

That IS an Ummah.

And yet, still IS Islam.

[Al Mumtahanah]

"In the history of European conquest one person stands out as having supported the Europeans more than anyone else in recorded history. That person is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian."

http://thecult.info/blog/tag/colonialism/

[Jolthig]

"In the history of European conquest one person stands out as having supported the Europeans more than anyone else in recorded history. That person is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian."

http://thecult.info/blog/tag/colonialism/

The cult is not a scholarly source on Ahmadiyya nor am I going to waste my time reading all that nonsense. Why not provide your own arguments against Ahmadiyya?

Your inconsistencies in your arguments isn't really getting you anywhere.

[Samudera Darussalam]

The supporting part is quite subjective, I believe. I just looking it up on the internet, and the ayah on the People of Lot has many interpretations than simply condemnation on homosexuality, but also rapes and showing inhospitability towards one's guests.

Rapes definitely harm more than simply acts of LGBTQ+, so I guess you're safe. I'm leaning towards neutral on this matter, btw.

Some guy looking it up on the internet is now more knowledgeable than over a thousand years of Muslim scholarship?


The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) referenced the sin multiple times and said it is to be treated as adultery. All of the four rightly-guided caliphs understood this.

Where did I say that it's not a sin? You start it with quoting the 'People of Lot', so I reply that it's not merely condemnation of homosexuality.

I know that I'm not a scholar, but I do try to study my religion.
Living as a Muslim in a predominantly secular, non-Muslim countries aren't that easy. You have to be more open-minded, even if it force you to somehow tolerate some haraam. Mind you, tolerate, not approve. Objectively speaking, 'rapes' do more harm than LGBTQ+.

The reason I say they are safe, is that supporting LGBTQ+ rights do no harm in our human world.

Since this is going back to the topic of Ilhan Omar, I have things that I don't agree with her views, but she is quite an achievement. She managed to overcome the difficulties to become a Muslim senator in the U.S. She may not do things right as a person or Muslim, but at least, she managed to represent her community. If the other Muslims don't agree with her, then why don't those other Muslims become that representative as well? It must be really easy to throw the word 'Munafeequn' around today?

Thank you for the response, and with this, case's closed.

[Jolthig]

Some guy looking it up on the internet is now more knowledgeable than over a thousand years of Muslim scholarship?


The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) referenced the sin multiple times and said it is to be treated as adultery. All of the four rightly-guided caliphs understood this.

Where did I say that it's not a sin? You start it with quoting the 'People of Lot', so I reply that it's not merely condemnation of homosexuality.

I know that I'm not a scholar, but I do try to study my religion.
Living as a Muslim in a predominantly secular, non-Muslim countries aren't that easy. You have to be more open-minded, even if it force you to somehow tolerate some haraam. Mind you, tolerate, not approve. Objectively speaking, 'rapes' do more harm than LGBTQ+.

The reason I say they are safe, is that supporting LGBTQ+ rights do no harm in our human world.

Since this is going back to the topic of Ilhan Omar, I have things that I don't agree with her views, but she is quite an achievement. She managed to overcome the difficulties to become a Muslim senator in the U.S. She may not do things right as a person or Muslim, but at least, she managed to represent her community. If the other Muslims don't agree with her, then why don't those other Muslims become that representative as well? It must be really easy to throw the word 'Munafeequn' around today?

Thank you for the response, and with this, case's closed.

Excellent response, brother. Don't worry about him. What you did was in accordance with Islam. (Quran 25:63)

[Jolthig]

I'm sorry for potentially derailing our current topic, but does anyone have a citation on the fact that Shariah cannot be imposed on non-Muslims? Thanks.

This is a basic verse that nearly everyone knows, but still.

Quran 2:256

[A m e n r i a]

I'm sorry for potentially derailing our current topic, but does anyone have a citation on the fact that Shariah cannot be imposed on non-Muslims? Thanks.

This is a basic verse that nearly everyone knows, but still.

Quran 2:256

Isn't that more about conversion though?

[Al Mumtahanah]

Some guy looking it up on the internet is now more knowledgeable than over a thousand years of Muslim scholarship?


The Prophet (may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) referenced the sin multiple times and said it is to be treated as adultery. All of the four rightly-guided caliphs understood this.

Where did I say that it's not a sin? You start it with quoting the 'People of Lot', so I reply that it's not merely condemnation of homosexuality.

I know that I'm not a scholar, but I do try to study my religion.
Living as a Muslim in a predominantly secular, non-Muslim countries aren't that easy. You have to be more open-minded, even if it force you to somehow tolerate some haraam. Mind you, tolerate, not approve. Objectively speaking, 'rapes' do more harm than LGBTQ+.

The reason I say they are safe, is that supporting LGBTQ+ rights do no harm in our human world.

Since this is going back to the topic of Ilhan Omar, I have things that I don't agree with her views, but she is quite an achievement. She managed to overcome the difficulties to become a Muslim senator in the U.S. She may not do things right as a person or Muslim, but at least, she managed to represent her community. If the other Muslims don't agree with her, then why don't those other Muslims become that representative as well? It must be really easy to throw the word 'Munafeequn' around today?

Thank you for the response, and with this, case's closed.

Why don't other Muslims sell out their values to a political party representing purely unislamic interests? This strips Islam does to nothing but an identity. Malcom X was a great Muslim involved in American politics, and he didn't sell out his Islamic values for that, rather the opposite, the values of his faith informed amd strengethened his political involvement.

"In the history of European conquest one person stands out as having supported the Europeans more than anyone else in recorded history. That person is Mirza Ghulam Ahmad of Qadian."

http://thecult.info/blog/tag/colonialism/

The cult is not a scholarly source on Ahmadiyya nor am I going to waste my time reading all that nonsense. Why not provide your own arguments against Ahmadiyya?

Your inconsistencies in your arguments isn't really getting you anywhere.

Mirza Ghulam Ahmad was a strong supporter of the British Empire precisely because it kept the Ummah out of power.


Mirza Ghulam proudly wrote:
"My father was a well-known landlord in this country and he enjoyed great eminence in the Government's offices. He was a true devotee and well wisher of the British Government. In the mutiny of 1857 (the Muslim independence movement against colonialism is called 'mutiny' by Mirza), my father supplied fifty horses and riders to aid the British Government. For this favor to the Government, he was very popular among the officials."
(Izala-e-Auham, P. 58, footnote)

"The benevolent Government is aware of the fact that we are from among their servants, their sympathizers and well wishers. We have come to their aid with a firm mind in every hour of need. My father was held in close and high esteem by the Government; and our services to this Government held clear distinction. I do not think that the Government has forgotten these services of ours. My father, Mirza Ghulam Murtaza, son of Mirza Ata Muhammad Al-Qadian, was a great well wisher and friend of this government and enjoyed great respect from among them. Our loyalty has been proven beyond doubt. Rather our fidelity was proven among the people and became clear to the government officials. The Government may confirm this from the officers who came to this side and lived among us; so that they may tell what sort of life we lived, and how faithful we have been in serving their Government."

(Noor-ul-Haq, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 8, P. 36-37; Noor-ul-Haq, Vol. 1, P. 27-28)

"I come from a family which is out and out loyal to this government. My father, Mir Ghulam Murtaza, who was considered its well-wisher, used to be granted a chair in the Governor's Darbar (cabinet) and has been mentioned by Mr. Griffin in his 'History of the Princes of Punjab'. In 1857, he helped the British government beyond his means, that is he procured fifty (50) cavaliers and horses right during the time of the mutiny. He was considered by the government to be its loyal supporter and well-wisher. A number of testimonials of appreciation received by him from the officers have unfortunately been lost. Copies of three of them, however, which had been published a long time ago, are reproduced in the margin (in English). Then, after the death of my grandfather, my elder brother Mirza Ghulam Qadir remained occupied with service to the government and when the evil-doers encountered the forces of the British government on the highway of Tanmmun, he participated in the battle on the side of the British Government (under General Nicholson he killed several freedom fighters). At the time of the death of my father and brother, I was sitting in the sidelines; but, since then, I have been helping the British for seventeen years with my pen."
(Kitab-ul-Barriah, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 13, P. 4, 5, 6, 7;
Shahadat-ul-Quran, Roohany Khazaen, Vol. 6, P. 385-387;
Ishtihar Wajib al-Izhar, Sept. 20, 1897, P. 3-7; appended with Kitab-ul-Barriah)

"I am scion of a family which the English Government acknowledges to be faithful to it. British officers have also admitted that my father and my people are amongst those who served the Government in all sincerity and with heart and soul. I can not find the words to express my homage and gratitude to the beneficent Government on account of the peace and composure which we have found as subjects of the Government. For this reason, we - myself, my father and my brother - have girded up our loins that we will exhibit the favors and advantages of this Government, make obedience to it incumbent on the people and embed it in their hearts."
(Tabligh-e-Risalat, Vol. 7, P. 8-9)

http://irshad.org/exposed/service.php

[Al Mumtahanah]

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet cursed effeminate men; those men who are in the similitude (assume the manners of women) and those women who assume the manners of men, and he said, "Turn them out of your houses." The Prophet turned out such-and-such man, and 'Umar turned out such-and-such woman.
Sahih Bukhari 7:72:774

It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Prophet said concerning those who do the action of the people of Lut: “Stone the upper and the lower, stone them both.” (Hasan)
Sunan Ibn Majah 3:20:256

Whoever is found conducting himself in the manner of the people of Lot, kill the doer and the receiver.
Tirmidhi 1:152

It was narrated from Ibn`Abbas that the Messenger of Allah said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Lut, kill the one who does it, and the one to whom it is done.” (Hasan)
Sunan Ibn Majah 3:20:2561