Greece is the Word(An Election Thread)

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Day25 with Varoufakis because the EU can go fuck itself.

Wikipedia calls them pro-European.

[Asherahan]

Day25 with Varoufakis because the EU can go fuck itself.

Wikipedia calls them pro-European.

European Realistic Disobedience Front is soft-eurosceptist.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Wikipedia calls them pro-European.

European Realistic Disobedience Front is soft-eurosceptist.

I'd rather somebody who wouldn't cooperate with Europe at all. Grexit sounds good.

[Shrillland]

European Realistic Disobedience Front is soft-eurosceptist.

I'd rather somebody who wouldn't cooperate with Europe at all. Grexit sounds good.

Not likely, I'm afraid. ND is as pro-European as a run of the mill classical liberal party gets.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

I'd rather somebody who wouldn't cooperate with Europe at all. Grexit sounds good.

Not likely, I'm afraid. ND is as pro-European as a run of the mill classical liberal party gets.

It's very sad. I've no idea why a party would support a policy of weakening sovereignty.

Ah well, has to be greek solution or golden dawn then it seems.

[Nakena]

Day25 with Varoufakis because the EU can go fuck itself.

I liked Varoufakis

[Shrillland]

Not likely, I'm afraid. ND is as pro-European as a run of the mill classical liberal party gets.

It's very sad. I've no idea why a party would support a policy of weakening sovereignty.

Ah well, has to be greek solution or golden dawn then it seems.

At least choose Greek Solution, I didn't put Neo-Nazi next to Golden Dawn for shits and giggles.

[Nakena]

It's very sad. I've no idea why a party would support a policy of weakening sovereignty.

Ah well, has to be greek solution or golden dawn then it seems.

At least choose Greek Solution, I didn't put Neo-Nazi next to Golden Dawn for shits and giggles.

Golden Dawn is hardline Natsoc

[Greater vakolicci haven]

It's very sad. I've no idea why a party would support a policy of weakening sovereignty.

Ah well, has to be greek solution or golden dawn then it seems.

At least choose Greek Solution, I didn't put Neo-Nazi next to Golden Dawn for shits and giggles.

Actual real Nazis then?

[Shrillland]

At least choose Greek Solution, I didn't put Neo-Nazi next to Golden Dawn for shits and giggles.

Actual real Nazis then?

Yes, actually. They've openly lauded Nazi figures and ideas in the past, have espoused Holocaust denials, and their leader is currently on trial for forming a criminal organisation after Golden Dawn members are thought to have been implicated in the murder or disappearance of up to 100 migrants.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Actual real Nazis then?

Yes, actually. They've openly lauded Nazi figures and ideas in the past, have espoused Holocaust denials, and their leader is currently on trial for forming a criminal organisation after Golden Dawn members are thought to have been implicated in the murder or disappearance of up to 100 migrants.

That doesn't sound very nice

[Nakena]

At least choose Greek Solution, I didn't put Neo-Nazi next to Golden Dawn for shits and giggles.

Actual real Nazis then?

Oh yeah. Including roman salute.

[Novus America]

At least choose Greek Solution, I didn't put Neo-Nazi next to Golden Dawn for shits and giggles.

Actual real Nazis then?

This is literally their flag.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Meandros_flag.svg

I am not one to throw around Nazi with abandon.
Most right populists are not Nazis.
Even many self proclaimed Fascists are not Nazis.

But these dudes are.

Blood, Honour, Golden Dawn Is their slogan. They do not even try to hide it.

[Nea Byzantia]

Greek Solution sound decent, would like a few pro-Russian voices in Europe.

Greek Solution, apart from the obvious “being far right” bit, is led by a telemarketer who claimed that he was selling genuine letters of Jesus Christ. So, I wouldn’t jump on his bandwagon.
Greek Solution is just a more mainstream and less neonazi and murder-y option for some of Golden Dawn’s voters, especially the more elderly, where GD didn’t do as well this time around. It follows in the tradition of other such far right parties, very church-focused, often Russophilic, with reactionary values, that come and go, really.

It all goes back to this guy...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Papadopoulos

...And more importantly, this guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Metaxas

Greece was actually at its most stable and economically prosperous in its modern history, under these two regimes...

[Baltenstein]

Greek Solution, apart from the obvious “being far right” bit, is led by a telemarketer who claimed that he was selling genuine letters of Jesus Christ. So, I wouldn’t jump on his bandwagon.
Greek Solution is just a more mainstream and less neonazi and murder-y option for some of Golden Dawn’s voters, especially the more elderly, where GD didn’t do as well this time around. It follows in the tradition of other such far right parties, very church-focused, often Russophilic, with reactionary values, that come and go, really.

A jesus Christ telemarketer? Sounds incredible, yes please, that could be fun.

Right-wing telemarketers are actually a real force in Greek politics. Adonis Georgiadis (expect to see this guy in a minister position in Mitsotakis' government) and Velopoulos both became famous through their TV shows in which they promoted and sold sensationalist, nationalist books before entering politics. A third notorious figure in this lot is D. Liakopoulos, whose books are even whackier (think the "I'm not saying it was aliens but it was aliens"guy). The staples of their worldview are the usual tinfoil stuff (In Greek, whacky conspiracy theory believers are usually called "sprayed ones", after the chemtrail theory): Glorification of the nation's ancient past, Putin and Trump good stronk leaders, all other countries run by little girls/NWO/Soros, gays and immigrants will kill us all etc. The godfather of the Greek Tele Far Right is arguably George Karatzaferis (also known as George "Karatzafuhrer") who also has his own TV channel, own book store and own party - the aforementioned Adonis, Velopoulos and Liakopoulos all originally started as his acolytes and loyal party soldiers.

[Nea Byzantia]

After the EU elections, where Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras' Syriza fared quite badly, Tsipras has announced the dissolution of Parliament and has called for elections "As soon as possible" which puts the date at July 7. So, we get to enjoy that most chaotic of votes, a Greek General Election, a full four months ahead of schedule...and much to the delight of the conservative New Democracy Party, which has been leading polls for over three years.

Parliament is made up of 300 seats, 250 chosen by PR in 59 regional constituencies with a 3% threshold, and the remaining 50 seats(Despite Syriza's best efforts) are a majority bonus given to the top seat-getter.

So, let's meet the parties, many of which you know by heart:

New Democracy(ND) led by Kyriakos Mitsotakis: Centre-right, Liberal Conservative, Christian Democratic, Pro-European

Coalition of the Radical Left(Syriza) led by current PM Alexis Tsipras: Left Wing, Alter-globalist, Left Populist, Democratic Socialist, Left Nationalist, Soft Eurosceptic

Movement for Change(KINAL) led by Fofi Gennimata: Centre-left, Social Democratic, Social Liberal, Pro-European

Golden Dawn led by Nikolaos Michaloliaokos: Far Right, Neo-Nazi, Metaxist, Ultranationalist, Hard Eurosceptic

Communist Party of Greece(KKE) led by Dimitras Koutsoumpas: Far Left, Communist

Greek Solution led by Kyriakos Velopoulos: Right Wing, Orthodox Nationalist, National Conservative, Pro-Russian, Eurosceptic, RIght Populist

Union of Centrists(EK) led by Vassilis Leventis: Centrist, Pro-European, Venizelist, Liberal, Economic Liberal

And there are other parties too like The River, Popular Unity and so on. So, who do you support, NSG?

I stand with Syriza myself. They've still got work to do fixing Greece's economy, but I think they can pull it off. I also like KINAL, however.

EDIT: The date has officially been confirmed as Sunday, July 7.

Let's just dispense with all this political theatre and have a Military Regime at this point...

[Baltenstein]

Greek Solution, apart from the obvious “being far right” bit, is led by a telemarketer who claimed that he was selling genuine letters of Jesus Christ. So, I wouldn’t jump on his bandwagon.
Greek Solution is just a more mainstream and less neonazi and murder-y option for some of Golden Dawn’s voters, especially the more elderly, where GD didn’t do as well this time around. It follows in the tradition of other such far right parties, very church-focused, often Russophilic, with reactionary values, that come and go, really.

It all goes back to this guy...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Papadopoulos

...And more importantly, this guy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Metaxas

Greece was actually at its most stable and economically prosperous in its modern history, under these two regimes...

Hooray for CIA backed fascist dictatorships, that's exactly what we need

Both of those regimes were "stable" in the same way that all dictatorships are stable - through military violence, police violence, massive state surveillance, systematic torture and forced exile. Pretty much the only thing they didn't resort to was mass murder. As for economic prosperity, Metaxas government was never doing particularly well economically, and the colonels junta achieved economic growth because ALL of Western Europe was growing economically before the Oil crisis of 1973 hit. Aside from that, governmental corruption and crony favoritism was endemic (as it usually is in authoritarian regimes).
The few good things I can say about Metaxas is that his regime didn't mimic Nazi Germany's genocidal racism, that he - unsuccesfully - tried to keep Greece out of the war and that he succesfully resisted the Italian invasion. The only good thing I can say about Papadopoulos is that at least he wasn't as bad as his deranged psycho successor Ioannidis.
And last but not least, none of these two regimes were remotely russophilic - this was back when Russia = Soviet Union.

[Nea Byzantia]

It all goes back to this guy...

(Image)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Papadopoulos

...And more importantly, this guy

(Image)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Metaxas

Greece was actually at its most stable and economically prosperous in its modern history, under these two regimes...

Hooray for CIA backed fascist dictatorships, that's exactly what we need

Both of those regimes were "stable" in the same way that all dictatorships are stable - through military violence, police violence, massive state surveillance, systematic torture and forced exile. Pretty much the only thing they didn't resort to was mass murder. As for economic prosperity, Metaxas government was never doing particularly well economically, and the colonels junta achieved economic growth because ALL of Western Europe was growing economically before the Oil crisis of 1973 hit. Aside from that, governmental corruption and crony favoritism was endemic (as it usually is in authoritarian regimes).
The few good things I can say about Metaxas is that his regime didn't mimic Nazi Germany's genocidal racism, that he - unsuccesfully - tried to keep Greece out of the war and that he succesfully resisted the Italian invasion. The only good thing I can say about Papadopoulos is that at least he wasn't as bad as his deranged psycho successor Ioannidis.
And last but not least, none of these two regimes were remotely russophilic - this was back when Russia = Soviet Union.

Has Greece done any better as a Republic? What's the best solution from your point of view? (Honest question)

Metaxas was not brought into power with the backing of the CIA; nor was his Regime overthrown until the Germans invaded Greece in April 1941 (several months after the Dictator's death). As for the economy, Greece has never done "particularly well"; its always either somewhat stable, or in the dumps - like it is now. Metaxas successfully kept Fascist Italy at bay (Btw, why is a "Fascist Regime" fighting a Fascist Regime, if Metaxas was really a Fascist why wasn't he pro-Axis?) and tried to keep Greece out of a war that was none of her business. Its a shame he died when he did.

As for the Colonels, yes their coup in April of 1967 was backed by the CIA; but whether or not the CIA were always supporting Papadopoulos is questionable. They may have even had a hand in raising the psychotic Ioannidis and deposing Papadopoulos in 1973. They certainly stopped supporting it, once the Cyprus Crisis got heated up. And Papadopoulos was starting to dial down the Tyranny, come 1972 - 1973, anyways; he had released political prisoners, and relaxed censorship - to the point that Ioannidis felt that he had gone soft, and deposed him.

Say what you will about their human rights records which - as you yourself admit - were not even that bad; they brought Order and Stability to the country; and the political prisoners they were torturing were Leftist revolutionaries, who would've plunged the country into chaos, and been just as ruthless if not worse. The economy, as I said above, was never that good in Greece; not since the Glory Days of Byzantium; so I don't know what you're expecting.

So honestly, those Regimes were not that bad, arguably much better than anything Greek politics has to offer today. The proof is in the pudding, and even the worst bits are not that bad; and the amount of corruption and mass cruelty can be debated. As for their supposed Russophobia; it had nothing to do with Russia as a Nation or People, and everything to do with the Communist Regime running Russia at that time. A Regime which was in every way opposed to what Greece stood for. If anything, Papadopoulos or Metaxas would be getting along fine with modern-Russia, or even pre-Revolutionary Russia; as these would've been much closer to Greece culturally and historically.

[Baltenstein]

Has Greece done any better as a Republic? What's the best solution from your point of view? (Honest question)

Representative parliamentary democracy, for all its flaws, continues to be the best political system there currently is. I find direct democracy and authoritarianism to be both undesirable, for different reasons. What we need is to combat corruption and tax evasion, to reduce statist bureaucracy and increase governance transparency, introduce more meritocratic selection criterions rather than party loyalty in how administration posts are manned. Personally I'd also create a more start-up friendly business enviroment and invest heavily in renewable energies. There isn't one big visionary step to be made, but rather lots of small, pragmatic ones.

Also I think you mean "as a democacy", because Greece actually became a republic under the colonels - it was them who kicked out the king, after all.

Metaxas was not brought into power with the backing of the CIA; nor was his Regime overthrown until the Germans invaded Greece in April 1941 (several months after the Dictator's death). As for the economy, Greece has never done "particularly well"; its always either somewhat stable, or in the dumps - like it is now. Metaxas successfully kept Fascist Italy at bay (Btw, why is a "Fascist Regime" fighting a Fascist Regime, if Metaxas was really a Fascist why wasn't he pro-Axis?)

That doesn't mean anything. Authoritarian regimes of similar ideologies fight each other all the time. Fascist Italy went to war with Nazi Germany too when the Italians realized the Allies were going to crush the Axis sooner or later. Other examples include the Sino-Soviet split or the various infighting in the Islamic world. Only pluralist democracies can truly make the claim of not going to war with each other.

As for the Colonels, yes their coup in April of 1967 was backed by the CIA; but whether or not the CIA were always supporting Papadopoulos is questionable. They may have even had a hand in raising the psychotic Ioannidis and deposing Papadopoulos in 1973. They certainly stopped supporting it, once the Cyprus Crisis got heated up. And Papadopoulos was starting to dial down the Tyranny, come 1972 - 1973, anyways; he had released political prisoners, and relaxed censorship - to the point that Ioannidis felt that he had gone soft, and deposed him.

As I said, the fact that Papadopoulos wasn't Ioannidis is the one good thing I can say about him, it's not much of an achievement though. It's like saying that Mussolini was okay because Hitler was worse.

Say what you will about their human rights records which - as you yourself admit - were not even that bad;

When I say they "the only thing they didn't do was mass murder" that does not any shape way or form imply that "they weren't that bad". The fact that there are people who are even worse than you does not make you a good person by any definition.

they brought Order and Stability to the country; and the political prisoners they were torturing were Leftist revolutionaries, who would've plunged the country into chaos, and been just as ruthless if not worse.

Not only is this not true - the Left was a spent force in Greece after having lost the Civil War; the majority of the pre-dictatorship tumoil came from the various public players (the king, the parliament, the army) all plotting against each other - this is not a valid argument at all. It's never justified to do horrible things just because otherwise someone else might (MIGHT) have done horrible things. Do you think the various CIA torture juntas in Latin America were justified? They were talking about "communist chaos" there too, you know.

The economy, as I said above, was never that good in Greece; not since the Glory Days of Byzantium; so I don't know what you're expecting.

The economic living standards saw a massive rise post-EU membership. The fact that Greek politicians preferred the easy, irresponsible way of corruption and mass spending instead of managing the countries' finances responsibly is their fault. I like to compare Greece to Cyprus and Portugal (countries with comparable socio-economic backgrounds), where a lot of things have been done better in the past 40 years.

So honestly, those Regimes were not that bad, arguably much better than anything Greek politics has to offer today.

No, not at all.

As for their supposed Russophobia; it had nothing to do with Russia as a Nation or People, and everything to do with the Communist Regime running Russia at that time. A Regime which was in every way opposed to what Greece stood for. If anything, Papadopoulos or Metaxas would be getting along fine with modern-Russia, or even pre-Revolutionary Russia; as these would've been much closer to Greece culturally and historically.

I never said that they had something against present-day Russia (altough I will stress again that your idea that Greece and Russia are somehow close friends is a historically and politically unfounded fantasy for a gullible part of the population). However the Russia of their time was the Soviet Union, which they both opposed.
And to be honest, I doubt they would have gotten along fine with Putin's Russia, outside of maybe empty rhetoric. If there was one thing neither Papadopoulos nor Metaxas ever challenged in any way it was Greece's inclusion in the Western geo-strategic camp. It's why Metaxas always kept the alliance with Britain intact despite being arguably closer to Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy in terms of what sort of state he was running.

[Novus America]

It is interesting that many Greeks are so favorable to Putin given Putin has much closer ties to and support for Erdogan than Greece.

Money and geopolitics override any “Orthodox Brotherhood”.

[Nea Byzantia]

It is interesting that many Greeks are so favorable to Putin given Putin has much closer ties to and support for Erdogan than Greece.

Money overrides and geopolitics override any “Orthodox Brotherhood”.

Turkey and Russia almost went at each other's throats as recently as 2015, when the Turks shot down a Russian jet. Erdogan simply wishes to use Russia to keep the Americans at bay; and things could change again very quickly. The Turks are very shifty; and could turn on the Russians as quickly they turned on the Americans.

[Novus America]

It is interesting that many Greeks are so favorable to Putin given Putin has much closer ties to and support for Erdogan than Greece.

Money overrides and geopolitics override any “Orthodox Brotherhood”.

Turkey and Russia almost went at each other's throats as recently as 2015, when the Turks shot down a Russian jet. Erdogan simply wishes to use Russia to keep the Americans at bay; and things could change again very quickly. The Turks are very shifty; and could turn on the Russians as quickly they turned on the Americans.

Oh sure Putin and Erdogan are both shifty, shady backstabbing dudes who could turn on each other.
Still does not change the fact that Russia is no trustworthy friend of Greece.
They will gladly sell Greece down the river if it is in their interests.
That Russia cares far more about money and geopolitics than “Orthodox Brotherhood”.

[Nea Byzantia]

Turkey and Russia almost went at each other's throats as recently as 2015, when the Turks shot down a Russian jet. Erdogan simply wishes to use Russia to keep the Americans at bay; and things could change again very quickly. The Turks are very shifty; and could turn on the Russians as quickly they turned on the Americans.

Oh sure Putin and Erdogan are both shifty, shady backstabbing dudes who could turn on each other.
Still does not change the fact that Russia is no trustworthy friend of Greece.
They will gladly sell Greece down the river if it is in their interests.
That Russia cares far more about money and geopolitics than “Orthodox Brotherhood”.

Because America is a much more superior benefactor...

[Baltenstein]

It is interesting that many Greeks are so favorable to Putin given Putin has much closer ties to and support for Erdogan than Greece.

Money and geopolitics override any “Orthodox Brotherhood”.

It's not just Erdogan. Russia is actively acting against Greece in regards to the Macedonian naming dispute too, where the parties that receive the most support from Moscow are the most nationalist and anti-Greek ones. And of course Russia was one of the first countries to recognize FYROM as "Macedonia" with no futher attribute.

I troll Greek putinists on Social Media with this stuff all the time. The response I usually get is that if we had a "real patriotic" (tm) government, instead of the NWO/Soros/Merkel/Israeli/insert-Alt-Right-rant-here puppets have now, Russia would totes ally with us. They are forced to hand out S-400 missiles to Turkey instead because of our sold-out politicians you see. The usual make-believe.

[Novus America]

Oh sure Putin and Erdogan are both shifty, shady backstabbing dudes who could turn on each other.
Still does not change the fact that Russia is no trustworthy friend of Greece.
They will gladly sell Greece down the river if it is in their interests.
That Russia cares far more about money and geopolitics than “Orthodox Brotherhood”.

Because America is a much more superior benefactor...

Whataboutism is an acknowledgement of the other side’s assertion, not an argument.
And the US keeps its alliances pretty stable compared to Russia.

I would not say the US is fully trustworthy, it is not, but actually (often, though obviously not always) does put historical alliances and such over immediate financial and geopolitical concerns.

We are shifty and shady but less so.