The Mueller Probe is Complete - Longer OP Edition

[The Black Forrest]

Sorry I don't take donnie at his word for well much of anything.

A two year investigation didn't turn up any evidence of collusion.

What exactly would it take to convince you?

I have to see the report before I can answer that one. If the trumpests release it as is; then that would answer a few things. I suspect there were be many confidential blackouts......

[Valrifell]

Ooo, crayons.

But, of course, you're ignoring the crucial subject matter that was "did President Trump actually know about this?" and you'll note that, fucking obviously, Trump and associates can be tried and, you know, have been over the course of this investigation. The crux of your argument doesn't make sense since it doesn't get to the root of everyone's question and the really illegal shit.

Right, the "really illegal shit".

It was so illegal that Mueller isn't recommending any indictments.

It was so illegal that Mueller didn't charge any Trump associates with anything collusion-related.

Boy, you've really got me convinced now.

Here I was under the impression we were talking about the rationale behind setting off the Mueller probe and why it was handled this way and not the results. Weird, it's like this had very little to do with what my point actually was, you don't have a response to it, and you're just being shitty and condescending again.

Besides, the current investigation unveiled the Russian interference anyway, so keeping it to "counter-intelligence" would more than likely actually restrict it in terms of what it could actually do.

Yeah, it wouldn't let them charge people with crimes who aren't under US jurisdiction.

How terribly restrictive.

Because somehow making it a counter-intelligence investigation would suddenly mean Russia is fine with extraditing its citizens to be tried to the US? What? Is that really your point here?

[Yusseria]

Right, the "really illegal shit".

It was so illegal that Mueller isn't recommending any indictments.

It was so illegal that Mueller didn't charge any Trump associates with anything collusion-related.

Boy, you've really got me convinced now.

Here I was under the impression we were talking about the rationale behind setting off the Mueller probe and why it was handled this way and not the results. Weird, it's like this had very little to do with what my point actually was, you don't have a response to it, and you're just being shitty and condescending again.

Were we? You were talking about Trump and his associates being tried.

Tried for what?

Trump didn't do anything.

And, interestingly, in spite of all the illegal shit you claim they did Mueller didn't indict any of them for anything collusion-related.

Yeah, it wouldn't let them charge people with crimes who aren't under US jurisdiction.

How terribly restrictive.

Because somehow making it a counter-intelligence investigation would suddenly mean Russia is fine with extraditing its citizens to be tried to the US? What? Is that really your point here?

That starting a criminal investigation here was stupid.

[The Black Forrest]

Here I was under the impression we were talking about the rationale behind setting off the Mueller probe and why it was handled this way and not the results. Weird, it's like this had very little to do with what my point actually was, you don't have a response to it, and you're just being shitty and condescending again.

Were we? You were talking about Trump and his associates being tried.

Tried for what?

Trump didn't do anything.

And, interestingly, in spite of all the illegal shit you claim they did Mueller didn't indict any of them for anything collusion-related.

Because somehow making it a counter-intelligence investigation would suddenly mean Russia is fine with extraditing its citizens to be tried to the US? What? Is that really your point here?

That starting a criminal investigation here was stupid.

You do understand an investigation right?

Even I suspected there wouldn't be an impeachment. You see in Nixon's time, both demos and members of the GOP wanted him gone. Fast forward; you will not see the party of trump moving against him.

[Yusseria]

Were we? You were talking about Trump and his associates being tried.

Tried for what?

Trump didn't do anything.

And, interestingly, in spite of all the illegal shit you claim they did Mueller didn't indict any of them for anything collusion-related.

That starting a criminal investigation here was stupid.

You do understand an investigation right?

Even I suspected there wouldn't be an impeachment. You see in Nixon's time, both demos and members of the GOP wanted him gone. Fast forward; you will not see the party of trump moving against him.

In Nixon's case there was actual evidence of him doing illegal shit.

Not so much here, though.

[Shofercia]

Clinton was Secretary of State - don't tell me that you wouldn't want CIA to hack Russia's Secretary of State's emails if the password was, something as easy as "password" - I mean seriously? Clinton's husband actually intervened in Russia's 1996 election, so it's entirely possible that the Clintons are projecting.

On that topic

Ukraine is investigating officials for meddling in the US election to support Clinton

Whoops. This is going to be good.

Thing is, there's no evidence showing that Russia affected the outcome of the election.

Super not hard to see how an election won with several states with margins within ~1% (or less) can be decided by something as "minor" as Russians utilizing social media misinformation campaigns.

Read the entire post, which shows why that was relevant.

If you can't make a point disconnected from Clinton's emails then I'm already primed to not take it seriously, sorry, liberal brain washing and all.

You can argue that such low margins can be decided by rain, so why not blame the Russians for creating rain on election day? My overall point was that it's extremely hypocritical to whine about what the Clintons think that Russia or Trump did, while attempting to do the exact same thing. It's like someone saying "I'd stab my partner in the back, I lost, clearly I got stabbed in the back by my partner"

[Forsher]

Twelve Russian nationals, two russian shell companies and a russian troll farm indicted.

That's great. But the fact that russia is meddling in our elections isn't justification for going after trump. And I think any reasonable person would assume Russia is meddling. Russia is Russia after all. What was sold to the people was that Trump colluded with russia to interfere in the elections, and it doesn't appear that the Mueller probe will support that claim. So now Democrats have a choice. they can walk back their claim, they can admit they lied or they can continue pushing a narrative that, at this point, goes in the same bin as 9/11 truthers. It looks like they're incapible of doing anything but the latter.

If you know something is probably going on and don't investigate it, you're probably complicit. If you definitely know something is happening and don't do anything, you're definitely complicit. Why do you act like this is some insta-win point? Its logical conclusion is the complete opposite to the one you use it for...

[Shofercia]

tldr on this?

No more indictments, no direct links showing collusion, bunch of hearsay, and quite a bit of financial machinations. Report may or may not be released next week, Mueller likely to testify in front of Congress, Republican and Democrat Media declared war on each other, and there might be a popcorn shortage in the US.

[Shofercia]

That's great. But the fact that russia is meddling in our elections isn't justification for going after trump. And I think any reasonable person would assume Russia is meddling. Russia is Russia after all. What was sold to the people was that Trump colluded with russia to interfere in the elections, and it doesn't appear that the Mueller probe will support that claim. So now Democrats have a choice. they can walk back their claim, they can admit they lied or they can continue pushing a narrative that, at this point, goes in the same bin as 9/11 truthers. It looks like they're incapible of doing anything but the latter.

If you know something is probably going on and don't investigate it, you're probably complicit. If you definitely know something is happening and don't do anything, you're definitely complicit. Why do you act like this is some insta-win point? Its logical conclusion is the complete opposite to the one you use it for...

You can investigate it, but what the MSNBC, CNN, and several Congressmen did, is claim that there will be impeachment and clear collusion found, before the investigation was completed. That didn't happen, so now there's going to be gloating from the other camp.

[The Two Jerseys]

Clinton was Secretary of State - don't tell me that you wouldn't want CIA to hack Russia's Secretary of State's emails if the password was, something as easy as "password" - I mean seriously? Clinton's husband actually intervened in Russia's 1996 election, so it's entirely possible that the Clintons are projecting.

On that topic

Ukraine is investigating officials for meddling in the US election to support Clinton

Wow, it's almost as if every country does this sort of thing!

Including the US...

[The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp]

tldr on this?

No more indictments, no direct links showing collusion, bunch of hearsay, and quite a bit of financial machinations. Report may or may not be released next week, Mueller likely to testify in front of Congress, Republican and Democrat Media declared war on each other, and there might be a popcorn shortage in the US.

Weren't they already at war?

Well, hey that financial machinations is something good to find?

Breaking news: popcorn prices spike 1000%

[Mystic Warriors]

Clinton was Secretary of State - don't tell me that you wouldn't want CIA to hack Russia's Secretary of State's emails if the password was, something as easy as "password" - I mean seriously? Clinton's husband actually intervened in Russia's 1996 election, so it's entirely possible that the Clintons are projecting.

On that topic

Ukraine is investigating officials for meddling in the US election to support Clinton

And you know Trump will jump in that BS.

[The Black Forrest]

You do understand an investigation right?

Even I suspected there wouldn't be an impeachment. You see in Nixon's time, both demos and members of the GOP wanted him gone. Fast forward; you will not see the party of trump moving against him.

In Nixon's case there was actual evidence of him doing illegal shit.

Not so much here, though.

You have an advance copy of the report?

[Shofercia]

On that topic

Ukraine is investigating officials for meddling in the US election to support Clinton

Wow, it's almost as if every country does this sort of thing!

Including the US...

Not every country. I've never seen Nauru, Tuvalu, Palau, Micronesia, Dominica, St. Kitts, St. Vincent, Grenada intervene in the affairs of other countries... and I could keep on going, but there are countries that don't do it. They have standards. (They also have very few people, and lack power to do anything substantial )

[Andsed]

In Nixon's case there was actual evidence of him doing illegal shit.

Not so much here, though.

You have an advance copy of the report?

TBH while I don't expect the report to have found something it would not surprise me in the slightest if it did. I mean it would explain how someone like Trump got elected.

[Shofercia]

No more indictments, no direct links showing collusion, bunch of hearsay, and quite a bit of financial machinations. Report may or may not be released next week, Mueller likely to testify in front of Congress, Republican and Democrat Media declared war on each other, and there might be a popcorn shortage in the US.

Weren't they already at war?

Well, hey that financial machinations is something good to find?

Breaking news: popcorn prices spike 1000%

Not to this extent. All media's going crazy.

Financial machinations are great to find! I never said that the report was all negative. However, what's to stop Manafort from exposing Podesta's financial machinations in Civil Court? The US desperately needs campaign finance reform, but we already knew that.

That does it! I'm going into the popcorn business by planting corn in my backyard!

[Forsher]

"Having a hostile foreign power help decide the outcomes of our internal elections is fine because admitting it's a problem would mean the libs were right, whereas this lets me OWN THE LIBS"

It actually doesn't, fun fact. Not quite sure why electoral integrity doesn't matter to you, well I do, the powers-that-be happen to like your guy, for now. But I guess caring about such petty nonsense as "free, fair, transparent elections" is virtue signalling.

Thing is, there's no evidence showing that Russia affected the outcome of the election.

That's not important.

If you shoot me and I die, it's a problem right? You're probably going to get done for murder. Or, at least, society generally hopes so.

However, what if you shot me but I was (a) already dying and (b) what actually killed me was having been chopped in half by, I don't know, something that chops people in half? Hell, maybe you just shot some kind of gut that was spilling out or whatever. Should you be arrested for my murder? Probably not, right? I mean, you might be but really you just committed assault, right?

The point is, we shouldn't let you slide in either situation because something bad is still happening regardless.

Like, you're not even right about why Clinton lost... the explanation is pretty obviously James Comey and his disregard for usual procedures. Before that moment everything else looked like it was going to be water off the duck's back... as irrelevant as all the mud thrown at Trump or all the many and varied things that Teflon John got away with.

Now... if an investigation into collusion finds nothing more than interference, then that's better than finding both, isn't it? If the investigation into collusion finds collusion then that's the worst outcome. And if the investigation into collusion finds neither collusion nor interference... well, now, that's the only outcome that's bad for the Clinton Campaign (and possibly also the Democrats... although given the Clinton Campaign is over and lost possibly also not a problem)... but it's probably the best one overall. No crime is better than some crime, right?

It looks like they found interference but not collusion... plus a bunch of connected and extremely sketchy crimes. There was smoke. It didn't lead to a forest fire, but it did find a house fire.

[Shofercia]

You have an advance copy of the report?

TBH while I don't expect the report to have found something it would not surprise me in the slightest if it did. I mean it would explain how someone like Trump got elected.

Yeah, about that: https://www.cracked.com/blog/6-reasons- ... lks-about/

Hey, remember when Hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans? Kind of weird that a big hurricane hundreds of miles across managed to snipe one specific city and avoid everything else. To watch the news (or the multiple movies and TV shows about it), you'd barely hear about how the storm utterly steamrolled rural Mississippi, killing 238 people and doing an astounding $125 billion in damage. But who cares about those people, right? What's newsworthy about a bunch of toothless hillbillies crying over a flattened trailer? New Orleans is culturally important. It matters. To those ignored, suffering people, Donald Trump is a brick chucked through the window of the elites. "Are you assholes listening now?"

Well, the perception back then was that those city folks were all turning atheist, abandoning church for their bisexual sex parties. That, we were told, was literally a sign of the Apocalypse. Not just due to the spiritual consequences (which were dire), but the devastation that would come to the culture. I couldn't imagine any rebuttal. In that place, at that time, the church was everything... Church was where you made friends, met girls, networked for jobs, got social support. The poor could get food and clothes there, couples could get advice on their marriages, addicts could try to get clean. But now we're seeing a startling decline in Christianity among the general population, the godless disease having spread alongside Valley Girl talk. So according to Fox News, what's the result of those decadent, atheist, amoral snobs in the cities having turned their noses up at God? Chaos.

...Blacks riot, Muslims set bombs, gays spread AIDS, Mexican cartels behead children, atheists tear down Christmas trees. Meanwhile, those liberal Lena Dunhams in their $5,000-a-month apartments sip wine and say, "But those white Christians are the real problem!" Terror victims scream in the street next to their own severed limbs, and the response from the elites is to cry about how men should be allowed to use women's restrooms and how it's cruel to keep chickens in cages.

Try telling that to anybody who lives in Trump country. They're getting the shit kicked out of them. I know, I was there. Step outside of the city, and the suicide rate among young people fucking doubles. The recession pounded rural communities, but all the recovery went to the cities. The rate of new businesses opening in rural areas has utterly collapsed.

See, rural jobs used to be based around one big local business -- a factory, a coal mine, etc. When it dies, the town dies. Where I grew up, it was an oil refinery closing that did us in. I was raised in the hollowed-out shell of what the town had once been. The roof of our high school leaked when it rained. Cities can make up for the loss of manufacturing jobs with service jobs -- small towns cannot. That model doesn't work below a certain population density.

And so on.

[Aclion]

That's great. But the fact that russia is meddling in our elections isn't justification for going after trump. And I think any reasonable person would assume Russia is meddling. Russia is Russia after all. What was sold to the people was that Trump colluded with russia to interfere in the elections, and it doesn't appear that the Mueller probe will support that claim. So now Democrats have a choice. they can walk back their claim, they can admit they lied or they can continue pushing a narrative that, at this point, goes in the same bin as 9/11 truthers. It looks like they're incapible of doing anything but the latter.

If you know something is probably going on and don't investigate it, you're probably complicit. If you definitely know something is happening and don't do anything, you're definitely complicit. Why do you act like this is some insta-win point? Its logical conclusion is the complete opposite to the one you use it for...

Who says it isn't being handled by intelligence?

[Forsher]

If you know something is probably going on and don't investigate it, you're probably complicit. If you definitely know something is happening and don't do anything, you're definitely complicit. Why do you act like this is some insta-win point? Its logical conclusion is the complete opposite to the one you use it for...

You can investigate it, but what the MSNBC, CNN, and several Congressmen did, is claim that there will be impeachment and clear collusion found, before the investigation was completed. That didn't happen, so now there's going to be gloating from the other camp.

Yes, and I am sure there are people who believed OJ was going to be found guilty too.

The gloating isn't a problem per se... it's obnoxious but whatever... it's that what Aclion is doing is using an argument which justifies the response by MSNBC etc. a lot more than the one Aclion wants. Over-eagerness isn't a problem per se either... it's just obnoxious.

Aclion's arguments are really similar to those used by people to say the investigation shouldn't have happened. And there's a reason for that... Aclion's making that argument too: "but the fact that russia is meddling in our elections isn't justification for going after trump". The existence of the meddling implies doing something or becoming complicit, not doing nothing. That's what I'm saying. People can gloat as they wish... but not on the basis of this argument.

[Forsher]

If you know something is probably going on and don't investigate it, you're probably complicit. If you definitely know something is happening and don't do anything, you're definitely complicit. Why do you act like this is some insta-win point? Its logical conclusion is the complete opposite to the one you use it for...

Who says it isn't being handled by intelligence?

I don't follow...

[The Two Jerseys]

No more indictments, no direct links showing collusion, bunch of hearsay, and quite a bit of financial machinations. Report may or may not be released next week, Mueller likely to testify in front of Congress, Republican and Democrat Media declared war on each other, and there might be a popcorn shortage in the US.

Weren't they already at war?

It's like the Napoleonic Wars, things will quiet down for a bit and then Something Big Happens_TM.

Well, hey that financial machinations is something good to find?

Problem is that Mueller was fishing for a marlin but ended up catching some plain old flounder, you can find that stuff going on in both parties.

Breaking news: popcorn prices spike 1000%

Good thing I stocked up!

[The Two Jerseys]

Wow, it's almost as if every country does this sort of thing!

Including the US...

Not every country. I've never seen Nauru, Tuvalu, Palau, Micronesia, Dominica, St. Kitts, St. Vincent, Grenada intervene in the affairs of other countries... and I could keep on going, but there are countries that don't do it. They have standards. (They also have very few people, and lack power to do anything substantial )

Plus who wants to meddle in other countries' affairs when you can instead sit on the beach and drink all day, every day?

[Shofercia]

Thing is, there's no evidence showing that Russia affected the outcome of the election.

That's not important.

It's rather crucial. If during his 1996 reelection bid, Bill Clinton invited Boris Yeltsin to come to the White House and extol his virtues - is that election interference? If in 2003 Bush asked Putin to not veto the Iraq Invasion, after telling Putin that the war will help Bush win in 2004 - is that election interference? If Putin captured American instructors in Georgia in August of 2008, and paraded them in Moscow in November of 2008, is that election interference? Every time RT points out how Neoliberals/Neoconservatives waste American Taxpayer Dollars on missions abroad, is that election interference? It's hard NOT to interfere in elections.

This claim here was focusing on Russian hackers allegedly airing Clinton's dirty laundry to other hackers, who aired it to Wikileaks, who leaked it. There's no proof that actually happened, but even if it did, it's just a cog in a chain of events. The dirty laundry had to exist, it had to be hackable, others had to be interested in it, and Wikileaks had to publish it. None of those factors were under Russia's control.

If you shoot me and I die, it's a problem right? You're probably going to get done for murder. Or, at least, society generally hopes so.

It depends. Are you in my house with a firearm? If you are, and the firearm is real, and I shoot you, and you die, I hope I don't go to jail. That'd be fucked up.

However, what if you shot me but I was (a) already dying and (b) what actually killed me was having been chopped in half by, I don't know, something that chops people in half? Hell, maybe you just shot some kind of gut that was spilling out or whatever. Should you be arrested for my murder? Probably not, right? I mean, you might be but really you just committed assault, right?

The point is, we shouldn't let you slide in either situation because something bad is still happening regardless.

The type of shooting your describing is a murder. Most people don't go around committing murders. Most powerful countries do attempt to exert some kind of electoral influence. Bad analogy is bad, and you should feel bad.

Like, you're not even right about why Clinton lost... the explanation is pretty obviously James Comey and his disregard for usual procedures. Before that moment everything else looked like it was going to be water off the duck's back... as irrelevant as all the mud thrown at Trump or all the many and varied things that Teflon John got away with.

Are you aware of this thing called voter turnout? If there wasn't widespread rural anger, there wouldn't be high rural voter turnout, no matter what Comey did.

Now... if an investigation into collusion finds nothing more than interference, then that's better than finding both, isn't it? If the investigation into collusion finds collusion then that's the worst outcome. And if the investigation into collusion finds neither collusion nor interference... well, now, that's the only outcome that's bad for the Clinton Campaign (and possibly also the Democrats... although given the Clinton Campaign is over and lost possibly also not a problem)... but it's probably the best one overall. No crime is better than some crime, right?

It looks like they found interference but not collusion... plus a bunch of connected and extremely sketchy crimes. There was smoke. It didn't lead to a forest fire, but it did find a house fire.

There's a difference between a forest fire and a house fire. Most NSGers know that campaign financial laws are fucked up. That's why most of us support campaign finance reform. We know that there was a house fire. However, the issue is that the Democrats pitched the house fire as a forest fire. And that turned out not to be the case.

[Shofercia]

You can investigate it, but what the MSNBC, CNN, and several Congressmen did, is claim that there will be impeachment and clear collusion found, before the investigation was completed. That didn't happen, so now there's going to be gloating from the other camp.

Yes, and I am sure there are people who believed OJ was going to be found guilty too.

The gloating isn't a problem per se... it's obnoxious but whatever... it's that what Aclion is doing is using an argument which justifies the response by MSNBC etc. a lot more than the one Aclion wants. Over-eagerness isn't a problem per se either... it's just obnoxious.

Aclion's arguments are really similar to those used by people to say the investigation shouldn't have happened. And there's a reason for that... Aclion's making that argument too: "but the fact that russia is meddling in our elections isn't justification for going after trump". The existence of the meddling implies doing something or becoming complicit, not doing nothing. That's what I'm saying. People can gloat as they wish... but not on the basis of this argument.

Difference was - OJ did it. He had the means, motive, and opportunity. Russia did not have the means to rig America's election, (that's like accusing a Calculus students of copying off of someone who just learned PEMDAS,) and because Russia lacked the means, Trump lacked the opportunity to collude. But hey, if the Democrats want to argue that during Obama's tenure American Democracy was weakened to the point of a Populist Democracy being able to rig America's Elections - go for it. Russia either had the means, or didn't.