[Accepted - 1141] The Trolley Problem

[Verdant Haven]

I was a bit surprised not to see a "Boaty McBoatface" issue currently in service, given how prevalent that was as a meme, the fact that it was an actual governmental issue with significant international attention, and how conducive questions of public voting are to NS. The only reference I could find anywhere was in Issue #988, where "McBoatface" is hardcoded as part of the name of a speaker.

As A Streetcar Named Desire has already been referenced, and "trolley" is a more international term, I've renamed this "The Trolley Problem" in reference to the famous ethics thought-problem of the same name.

[TITLE] The Trolley Problem

[DESCRIPTION] After the public poll to name @@CAPITAL@@'s newest trolley line was handily won by a tired and insincere meme response, making it the sixth consecutive poll with similar results, the mayor has come to your office begging for an official stance on naming procedures for public projects.

[VALIDITY] Must allow voting.

[CHOICE 1] "Trolley McTrolleyface?" sighs the mayor dejectedly. "I have to ride to work on Trolley McTrolleyface? I wanted 'The @@ANIMAL@@ Express,' but no, we're stuck with this boring nonsense again. Instead of throwing open these polls to every juvenile delinquent or obnoxious 'Grick and Morgy' fan, could we please establish some boundaries? How about a committee of respected citizens to vet the choices that are on the ballot? That way the people get their say, and we get some dignity!"

[FALLOUT 1] public projects are synonymous with yawn-inducing conformity


[CHOICE 2] "Remind me again why we let the public vote on this stuff at all?" interjects your Auxiliary Regional Subaltern for Naming Things. "The government foots the bill, the government has the responsibility for maintaining our nation's image, so the government should choose the name! Heck, perhaps you should just name the next project after yourself!"

[FALLOUT 2] most towns and cities have @@A@@ @@LEADER@@ school located on @@LEADER@@ street


[CHOICE 3] "Are you kidding me? These names are great!" bubbles @@RANDOMNAME@@, your Communication Director’s intern, while excitedly checking your metrics. "This isn't civic failing, it's civic engagement! If some silly names are all it takes to get citizens fired up and interested in public works, then isn’t that worth it? Who cares if it's a bit repetitious – it’s great for our optics!"

[FALLOUT 3] The street in front of the capitol building is named "Blackacre Did Nothing Wrong"

2nd draft:

I was a bit surprised not to see a "Boaty McBoatface" issue currently in service, given how prevalent that was as a meme, the fact that it was an actual governmental issue with significant international attention, and how conducive questions of public voting are to NS. The only reference I could find anywhere was in Issue #988, where "McBoatface" is hardcoded as part of the name of a speaker.

As A Streetcar Named Desire has already been referenced, and "trolley" is a more international term, I've renamed this "The Trolley Problem" in reference to the famous ethics thought-problem of the same name.

[TITLE] The Trolley Problem

[DESCRIPTION] The mayor's office in @@CAPITAL@@ made national headlines after being embarrassed by the results of a public poll to name their new trolley line. "Trolley McTrolleyface" handily defeated the mayor's own choice of "The @@ANIMAL@@ Express," and nobody knows quite what to do next.

[VALIDITY] Must allow voting. Possibly needs cars (depends on how stringently that ban is worded)


[CHOICE 1] "Listen, it’s all well and good to let the public have some input," stammers @@RANDOMNAME@@, the Auxiliary Regional Subaltern for Naming Things, "but I can't keep riding to work on that embarrassment of a trolley line! The people - they point and stare! We should have a citizens committee vet the choices, and only put acceptable ones on the ballot! That way the people get their say, and I don't get laughed at!"

[FALLOUT 1] public projects are synonymous with yawn-inducing conformity


[CHOICE 2] "Remind me again, why do we let the public vote on this stuff at all?" interjects your head bodyguard @@RANDOMNAME@@, unbidden. "The government foots the bill, the government should choose the name! Heck, perhaps you should just name the next project after yourself!"

[FALLOUT 2] most towns and cities have @@A@@ @@LEADER@@ school located on @@LEADER@@ street


[CHOICE 3] "Are you kidding me? The name is great!" bubbles @@RANDOMNAME@@, your Communication Director’s intern, while excitedly checking your engagement metrics. "If some silly name is all it takes to get the public fired up and interested in public works, then isn’t that worth it? Who cares if a bunch of old fuddy-duddies don’t get it – it’s great for our optics!

[FALLOUT 3] The street in front of the capitol building is named "Blackacre Did Nothing Wrong"

1st draft:

I was a bit surprised not to see a "Boaty McBoatface" issue currently in service, given how prevalent that was as a meme, the fact that it was an actual governmental issue, and how conducive questions of public voting are to NS. The only reference I could find anywhere was in Issue #988, where "McBoatface" is hardcoded as part of the name of a speaker.

[TITLE] A Streetcar Named McStreetcarface

[DESCRIPTION] The mayor's office in @@CAPITAL@@ made national headlines after being embarrassed by the results of a public poll to name their new streetcar. "Streetcar McStreetcarface" handily defeated the mayor's own choice of "The @@ANIMAL@@ Express," and now your officials have come to you pitching their ideas for avoiding such problems in the future.

[VALIDITY] Must allow voting. Possibly needs cars (depends on how stringently that ban is worded)


[CHOICE 1] "Listen, it’s all well and good to let the public have some input," stammers @@RANDOMNAME@@, the Auxiliary Regional Subaltern for Naming Things, "but I can't keep riding to work in that embarrassment of a streetcar! The people – they point and laugh! Limit votes to just a list of government approved choices – then we’re guaranteed to be in the clear. If we slip a couple @@CURRENCYPLURAL@@ to the right executives at the polling office, the public doesn’t even need to know!"

[FALLOUT 1] voters exhibit a suspicious preference for whatever the government suggests


[CHOICE 2] "We can let the public vote as they please" muses Design Manager @@RANDOMNAME@@, while examining the budget for an upcoming civil engineering project. "If they pick an unacceptable option, we can just cut funding before completion of the project. We can even snag some extra support by talking up our fiscal responsibility!"

[FALLOUT 2] important public projects are routinely cancelled at the last second


[CHOICE 3] "Remind me again, why do we let the public vote on this stuff at all?" asks your head bodyguard @@RANDOMNAME@@, butting in without invitation. "It seems like they’ve proven they can’t handle that kind of responsibility. You always seem to know what’s best – that’s why you’re our leader! Maybe you should just make the decisions yourself."

[FALLOUT 3] no schoolboard can meet without a direct line to @@LEADER@@ for input


[CHOICE 4] "Are you kidding me? The name is great!" bubbles @@RANDOMNAME@@, your Communication Director’s intern, while excitedly checking your engagement metrics. "If some silly name is all it takes to get the public fired up and interested in public works, then isn’t that worth it? Who cares if a bunch of old fuddy-duddies don’t get it – it’s great for our optics!

[FALLOUT 4] The street in front of the capitol building is named "Blackacre Did Nothing Wrong"

[Australian rePublic]

Don't assume @@CAPITAL@@ has trams. Use @@ANIMAL@@ City instead

[Jutsa]

Aussie did recently submit a draft named "A Streetcar Named Lightrail".

[Australian rePublic]

"Tramy McTramface" would be a much better name than "Streetcar McStreetcarface"

[USS Monitor]

Don't assume @@CAPITAL@@ has trams. Use @@ANIMAL@@ City instead

I don't think this is a big deal. Lots of issues make minor assumptions about @@CAPITAL@@.

"Tramy McTramface" would be a much better name than "Streetcar McStreetcarface"

This is true, though.

[Australian rePublic]

I just considered something. No network anywhere names individual trams. There are too many of them. You can name a type of tram, but not the individual tram itself

Don't assume @@CAPITAL@@ has trams. Use @@ANIMAL@@ City instead

I don't think this is a big deal. Lots of issues make minor assumptions about @@CAPITAL@@.

I recently wrote an issue about trams. If both this issue, and my issue are published, then it would be best if they assumed that the city known for its trams is consistant.

P.S. OP- I am direct and to the point. This means that I basically say everything I need to say without pissing around. This is a reflection of my personality, not your work. Sorry if this seems offensive.

[Robosia]

Streety McStreetcarface.

[USS Monitor]

I just considered something. No network anywhere names individual trams. There are too many of them. You can name a type of tram, but not the individual tram itself

I don't think this is a big deal. Lots of issues make minor assumptions about @@CAPITAL@@.

I recently wrote an issue about trams. If both this issue, and my issue are published, then it would be best if they assumed that the city known for its trams is consistant.

P.S. OP- I am direct and to the point. This means that I basically say everything I need to say without pissing around. This is a reflection of my personality, not your work. Sorry if this seems offensive.

Aussie, your personality isn't offensive.

I'm just confused as to why it would be a problem for @@CAPITAL@@ to have trams.

[Australian rePublic]

I just considered something. No network anywhere names individual trams. There are too many of them. You can name a type of tram, but not the individual tram itself


I recently wrote an issue about trams. If both this issue, and my issue are published, then it would be best if they assumed that the city known for its trams is consistant.

P.S. OP- I am direct and to the point. This means that I basically say everything I need to say without pissing around. This is a reflection of my personality, not your work. Sorry if this seems offensive.

Aussie, your personality isn't offensive.

I'm just confused as to why it would be a problem for @@CAPITAL@@ to have trams.

It's not. I'm just saying, keep it consistant

[Verdant Haven]

Don't assume @@CAPITAL@@ has trams. Use @@ANIMAL@@ City instead

It being the capital is relevant to the narrative. It's no different to assume it there than elsewhere.

Aussie did recently submit a draft named "A Streetcar Named Lightrail".

Curses!!! I was definitely going for the Streetcar Named Desire reference. I'll hunt up something else.

"Tramy McTramface" would be a much better name than "Streetcar McStreetcarface"

The term "tram" is really not used in the States, where I am. We call them Streetcars. The only place I encounter "tram" is as a word for an airport terminal shuttle.

I just considered something. No network anywhere names individual trams. There are too many of them. You can name a type of tram, but not the individual tram itself

Most American streetcars aren't really part of a full network. I daresay San Francisco has the only real network of them in the US, and it's just 3 short lines used by tourists. Most places with streetcars here consist of a single line, fairly short, and generally just a straight shot out and back between some offsite transportation hub or residential area, and a central business area. In those cases, I have seen names on streetcars, though perhaps it would be better for me to name the line, rather than an individual car. "Streety McStreetcarface" would work that way.

P.S. OP- I am direct and to the point. This means that I basically say everything I need to say without pissing around. This is a reflection of my personality, not your work. Sorry if this seems offensive.

No offense taken. While I might not agree with all feedback I'm given, I do post here to get it, and am glad for it.

Streety McStreetcarface.

Yes.

[Australian rePublic]

Don't assume @@CAPITAL@@ has trams. Use @@ANIMAL@@ City instead

It being the capital is relevant to the narrative. It's no different to assume it there than elsewhere.

Aussie did recently submit a draft named "A Streetcar Named Lightrail".

Curses!!! I was definitely going for the Streetcar Named Desire reference. I'll hunt up something else.

"Tramy McTramface" would be a much better name than "Streetcar McStreetcarface"

The term "tram" is really not used in the States, where I am. We call them Streetcars.

And the term "streetcar" is 100% total and utterly non-existent outside of the USA and Canada. Everywhere around the world, from Europe to Oceania, they're exclusively called "trams" 100% of the time in all circumstances (except for light rail, which is another manner in and of itself). What's your point?

I just considered something. No network anywhere names individual trams. There are too many of them. You can name a type of tram, but not the individual tram itself

Most American streetcars aren't really part of a full network. I daresay San Francisco has the only real network of them in the US, and it's just 3 short lines used by tourists. Most places with streetcars here consist of a single line, fairly short, and generally just a straight shot out and back between some offsite transportation hub or residential area, and a central business area. In those cases, I have seen names on streetcars, though perhaps it would be better for me to name the line, rather than an individual car. "Streety McStreetcarface" would work that way.
[/quote]
MOST tram systems are part of a full network of public transport. The case you are describing is virtually (if not, completely) non-existent everywhere outside of the USA. I've never even heard of a tram network which wasn't part of a city's fully intergrated transport network, except of coasre, a few tourist lines, but those small tourists lines would be there own issue, and they would use historical trams

[Verdant Haven]

And the term "streetcar" is 100% total and utterly non-existent outside of the USA and Canada. Everywhere around the world, from Europe to Oceania, they're exclusively called "trams" 100% of the time in all circumstances (except for light rail, which is another manner in and of itself). What's your point?

My point is that I have a different experience than you, and am writing from that experience. Since North America has more than three times the number of native English speakers as the rest of the world combined, it seems like North American vocabulary ought to be at least equally-valid as any other for something written in English. A word is not right or wrong because it is more used in NA, or more used in Europe, or more used anywhere else. Also, fwiw, Light Rail can be called a "streetcar" here as well, in some contexts.

More importantly though, I am not willing to use the word "tram" here, because it means something so completely different for a large portion of the audience. If it were just neutral or unused in NA English, I wouldn't mind, but it isn't - it means something very different from public transit. In NA, a tram is the little thing kids ride on at the mall, or that a person takes from the parking lot to the entrance of a theme park. It is a reasonable point that "streetcar" might be unfamiliar to some portions of the audience though, so how about a third option. Would "Trolley" be acceptable, in your mind, for British-English usage? I'm aware it has a meaning similar to our "shopping cart" in some contexts, but does it also exist in usage for a public local rail-based transit system? Given that apparently Streetcar Named Desire was already referenced in a recent issue title, by you yourself I'm told, I'm not as attached to that specific term as I would otherwise be.

MOST tram systems are part of a full network of public transport. The case you are describing is virtually (if not, completely) non-existent everywhere outside of the USA. I've never even heard of a tram network which wasn't part of a city's fully intergrated transport network, except of coasre, a few tourist lines, but those small tourists lines would be there own issue, and they would use historical trams

I didn't say, or at least did not intend to say, that they aren't part of a network of some kind of public transportation - only that they aren't inherently part of a network of other streetcar routes. They readily link up with buses, train stations, and docks, but there's no requirement that there be a full network of "trams" to support them. Consider transit in Jerusalem, Angers, or Casablanca. They can easily be a cog in a machine without a dozen matching cogs nearby.

[Australian rePublic]

And the term "streetcar" is 100% total and utterly non-existent outside of the USA and Canada. Everywhere around the world, from Europe to Oceania, they're exclusively called "trams" 100% of the time in all circumstances (except for light rail, which is another manner in and of itself). What's your point?

My point is that I have a different experience than you, and am writing from that experience. Since North America has more than three times the number of native English speakers as the rest of the world combined, it seems like North American vocabulary ought to be at least equally-valid as any other for something written in English. A word is not right or wrong because it is more used in NA, or more used in Europe, or more used anywhere else. Also, fwiw, Light Rail can be called a "streetcar" here as well, in some contexts.

More importantly though, I am not willing to use the word "tram" here, because it means something so completely different for a large portion of the audience. If it were just neutral or unused in NA English, I wouldn't mind, but it isn't - it means something very different from public transit. In NA, a tram is the little thing kids ride on at the mall, or that a person takes from the parking lot to the entrance of a theme park. It is a reasonable point that "streetcar" might be unfamiliar to some portions of the audience though, so how about a third option. Would "Trolley" be acceptable, in your mind, for British-English usage? I'm aware it has a meaning similar to our "shopping cart" in some contexts, but does it also exist in usage for a public local rail-based transit system? Given that apparently Streetcar Named Desire was already referenced in a recent issue title, by you yourself I'm told, I'm not as attached to that specific term as I would otherwise be.

1. "Tram" is used in most European languages, not just English
2. "Streetcar McStreetcarface" is too long and bulky. "Tramy McTramface" just flows better. That's my oposition to it, not the unfamiliarity of the word "streetcar". Most people know what a streetcars.
3. This is a trolley everywhere except the USA (including other languages)

[img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Trådbuss_Landskrona.JPG/1280px-Trådbuss_Landskrona.JPG[/img]

If not trolley buses, what do you call them?

MOST tram systems are part of a full network of public transport. The case you are describing is virtually (if not, completely) non-existent everywhere outside of the USA. I've never even heard of a tram network which wasn't part of a city's fully intergrated transport network, except of coasre, a few tourist lines, but those small tourists lines would be there own issue, and they would use historical trams

I didn't say, or at least did not intend to say, that they aren't part of a network of some kind of public transportation - only that they aren't inherently part of a network of other streetcar routes. They readily link up with buses, train stations, and docks, but there's no requirement that there be a full network of "trams" to support them. Consider transit in Jerusalem, Angers, or Casablanca. They can easily be a cog in a machine without a dozen matching cogs nearby.[/quote]
Yes, but you don't name every cog, especially if there are thousands of them. Melbourne, for example, has approx. 1400 trams. Why would they name every single one of them?

[Sacara]

This argument is pointless; issues are written from the author's perspective, and I would wage to say that tram, trolley, or streetcar would work in this instance. Stop hassling the author as suggestions are just that: suggestions. He has no obligation to take any one person's suggestions, as it's his draft.

Anyways, onto the draft itself:

For the premise, I like it. However, there are a few things that need to be addressed. First, the last sentence is redundant and can be cut. Also, how widespread is the idea of naming things by vote that it needs to be addressed on the national issue? You'll need to add why, because of one minor vote in @@CAPITAL@@ that this should go to @@LEADER@@'s office. Once you find a way to nationalize this issue more, I think you should stick a high political freedoms validity on it.

In regards to options, option one rigs the elections, option two cuts the funding if it isn't what the government likes, option three prohibits public voting, and option four keeps the current policy in place (but where was this decided)? That's three authoritarian options and one libertarian option. Personally, I think you can cut option two and make one stronger. I also think you should extend option three to allow voting for names on everyting the government does.

In option one, you need to add a hyphen between 'government' and 'approved'. Also, I think it's best to avoid dialogue that continues from the first part past the dialogue tag; it just looks messy, and it really doesn't add anything to the issue itself. For option three, I've heard the word 'invitation' used before with 'an', but I think it's more formal if you include it. Also, is 'schoolboard' one word?

[Verdant Haven]

Ok, 2nd draft up!

Here's the changelong:

- Since Streetcar Named Desire has already been referenced I changed the name to "The Trolley Problem" (which is a famous ethics thought experiment)
- As befits that, I replaced the term "Streetcar" with the term "Trolley"
- I changed the name issue to be for the whole transit line, rather than one specific car
- I simplified the end of the description
- I lessened the authoritarian-heavy choice load by removing the old Choice 2, and adjusting Choice 1 to be less corrupt, and more publicly involved
- I edited the text of the new Choice 2 and Fallout 2 to be a little more straightforward and, hopefully, amusing

(In response to previously posed questions, school board does appear to be heavily favored over schoolboard. Also, what is linked as a "trolley bus" is just a "bus" in the US, but that's fine. As long as it makes sense as a transit term, I'm happy).

[New Ladavia]

The trolly problem while a better name than what you had earlier makes me think of the morality thought experiment on utilitarianism than your current issue. If that's what you're going for then good.
But then again it's your issue so you can choose.

[USS Monitor]

The trolly problem while a better name than what you had earlier makes me think of the morality thought experiment on utilitarianism than your current issue. If that's what you're going for then good.
But then again it's your issue so you can choose.

A lot of issue titles sound like one thing, but then the issue is something else -- e.g. "Object Oriented Programming"

[Australian rePublic]

By "trolley" do you mean tram or trolley bus? I suppose it doesn't matter though, it works either way. Just out of curiosity, what do you guys call trolley buses in North America? (That is a bus with electrical overhesd wiring). Surely they're not just called buses

[USS Monitor]

By "trolley" do you mean tram or trolley bus? I suppose it doesn't matter though, it works either way. Just out of curiosity, what do you guys call trolley buses in North America? (That is a bus with electrical overhesd wiring). Surely they're not just called buses

Trolley or bus, but usually just one word or the other rather than sticking them together.

[Verdant Haven]

The trolly problem while a better name than what you had earlier makes me think of the morality thought experiment on utilitarianism than your current issue. If that's what you're going for then good.
But then again it's your issue so you can choose.

That's definitely the reference I was going for :-)

By "trolley" do you mean tram or trolley bus? I suppose it doesn't matter though, it works either way. Just out of curiosity, what do you guys call trolley buses in North America? (That is a bus with electrical overhesd wiring). Surely they're not just called buses

Just a bus is what I'd call that. Had them in a nearby city growing up, and they were just called buses. I've never heard the term "trolley bus" to be honest.

As you say though, so long as it works either way, that's the main thing.

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Great writing, of course, though personally I feel like the McBoatface thing has run its course as a primary meme for satire.

I'd be more interested in seeing a draft about the persistence of that meme. That is IRL, every time there is a naming competition now, somebody comes up with Noun McNounface, often displacing much funnier suggestions. It'd be more interesting narrative framing - in my opinion - to have Noun McNounface be a thing that has already happened, and to have people complaining that the meme just won't die, and has even become so uncool that politicians are referencing it in their speeches.

[Robosia]

By "trolley" do you mean tram or trolley bus? I suppose it doesn't matter though, it works either way. Just out of curiosity, what do you guys call trolley buses in North America? (That is a bus with electrical overhesd wiring). Surely they're not just called buses

Trams are called trams, trolley buses are called buses, and tourist trolleys are called shuttles.

[Australian rePublic]

Great writing, of course, though personally I feel like the McBoatface thing has run its course as a primary meme for satire.

I'd be more interested in seeing a draft about the persistence of that meme. That is IRL, every time there is a naming competition now, somebody comes up with Noun McNounface, often displacing much funnier suggestions. It'd be more interesting narrative framing - in my opinion - to have Noun McNounface be a thing that has already happened, and to have people complaining that the meme just won't die, and has even become so uncool that politicians are referencing it in their speeches.

I disagree. I think that it's so referenced that it deserves ro be its own issue. Besides, "should noun be called nouny mcnounface" still happens, no matter how often it's suggested

Hell, we had this debate atleast as recently as January
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-01- ... fmredir=sm

[Australian rePublic]

One of these options should say that the mayor is sour because his name lost

[Candlewhisper Archive]

Great writing, of course, though personally I feel like the McBoatface thing has run its course as a primary meme for satire.

I'd be more interested in seeing a draft about the persistence of that meme. That is IRL, every time there is a naming competition now, somebody comes up with Noun McNounface, often displacing much funnier suggestions. It'd be more interesting narrative framing - in my opinion - to have Noun McNounface be a thing that has already happened, and to have people complaining that the meme just won't die, and has even become so uncool that politicians are referencing it in their speeches.

I disagree. I think that it's so referenced that it deserves ro be its own issue. Besides, "should noun be called nouny mcnounface" still happens, no matter how often it's suggested

Hell, we had this debate atleast as recently as January
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-01- ... fmredir=sm

No, that's what I mean. The satirical observation to make at this time isn't to say "hey, wouldn't it be funny if someone suggested the name Boaty McBoatface for a naming competition", it's to say "will people ever stop suggesting Boaty McBoatface, it was funny the first time, but now it's wearing thin."

There's an important distinction there, and I think the latter is sharper satire and better comedy.