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Embassy of the South Pacific | New Treaty with 10000 Islands

Talk about regional management and politics, raider/defender gameplay, and other game-related matters.
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Farengeto
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 105
Founded: Jun 22, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Farengeto » Wed Jul 25, 2018 8:53 pm

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Cabinet of the South Pacific
Proscriptions


The Cabinet has unanimously agreed to enact the following proscriptions. Initially announced in June 2018 by the previous Cabinet, these proscriptions were never officially put into effect. After being left in the Assembly for a month for debate, the Cabinet has voted to put these proscriptions into effect. Any individual, region or organization listed in these proscriptions is prohibited from having a nation in TSP, as well as accessing off-site resources including these forums and the regional Discord.

Under Article 3.3 of the Proscription Act, members of any region or organization affected by these proscriptions have 7 days to renounce their association.

The following regions and individuals will be immediately proscribed. The criteria mentioned below relate to Article 1 of the Proscription Act, which lay out the Acts of Hostility that establish eligibility for proscription.

Ever-Wandering Souls of The Black Hawks (criteria 1, 3, 4)
Outright considers TSP an enemy force as-is
Attempted to manipulate the SPSF in 2016 by using unrelated incidents to coerce Imki into firing SPSF soldiers deemed detrimental to TBH using SPSF for its operations, to the detriment of the well-being of SPSF
Is the singular reason why TWP proscribed his entire region, relating to ill-suited conduct during a joint raid.
Is the singular reason why TEP (an ally) proscribed his entire region, relating to blackmailing the EPSA military commander
Sensitive intelligence suggests he has conspired, or is conspiring to, overthrow the Coalition and "cleanse" it.

Funkadelia of Lone Wolves United (criteria 1, 2, 5)
Pattern of gaining citizenship in regions to promote factional politics, including in 2016 when he gained Legislator status to promote defender politics
Pattern of voter importation in at least Lazarus dating back to at least 2016
Couped and griefed Lazarus

Lamb Stone of Lone Wolves United (criteria 1, 5)
Co-conspirator of Funkadelia's various efforts starting in 2016
Couped and griefed Lazarus

Evil Wolf of Lone Wolves United (criteria 1, 5)
Pattern of GCR subversion and invasion dating back a decade
Couped and griefed Lazarus

McMannia of HYDRA Command and The Ragerian Imperium (criteria 1, 2, 3, 4, 5)
The founder of HYDRA Command
Mastermind of all hostilities towards TSP emanating from HYDRA Command or TRI, and does not fear utilizing any and all resources of those regions for such purposes.

The organization HYDRA Command (also known as H Y D R A) and its successor organization The Ragerian Imperium (criteria 1, 2, 3)
Last Summer, HYDRA Command launched a direct attack on TSP, attempting to displace Delegate Drugged Monkeys in order to distract the South Pacific from its efforts in fighting against the coup of Lazarus supported by HYDRA Command.
Intel suggests that hatred of the South Pacific is deliberately fostered within HYDRA Command and TRI amongst new members.
Sensitive Intel suggests that HYDRA Command/TRI had a Legislator planted in TSP for the purpose of stealing internal logs and information.
Last edited by Farengeto on Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6375
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:19 pm

Farengeto wrote:The criteria mentioned below relate to Article 1 of the Proscription Act, which lay out the Acts of Hostility that establish eligibility for proscription.


Stating it again does not make it more accurate.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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RiderSyl
Senator
 
Posts: 4802
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:23 pm

Transparency is dead in the Pacifics. It's especially erroneous in TSP, a self-proclaimed democracy. News flash: You can't be a beacon of democracy when you act like an oligarchy.

inb4 Roavin's spin
EDIT: oops, i think he saw me call that
Last edited by RiderSyl on Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
R.I.P. Dyakovo
Sylvia Montresor

Ashmoria
Karpathos
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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6375
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:30 pm

My proscription contains 4/5 claims that are utterly irrelevant to the proscription act, and one claim that has no evidence attached, and that I've denied.

TRI's/McMannia's proscriptions contain a fair core argument for proscription as per TSP's laws, but contain numerous serious factual errors.

EW et al's proscriptions are probably most justified, but still amusing from a viewpoint of "TSP has allies known to do the exact same."

A day later, no one has given me an official reply, attempted to back TSP's claims, nor taken me up on helping me to file a case disputing these claims in TSP's preferred manner.

All around, not the best showing.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

Reploid Productions wrote:Raiders are endlessly creative

How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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RiderSyl
Senator
 
Posts: 4802
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:32 pm

Who cares if it's legal? It proscribes raiders. Clearly that's all that matters.

I hated this sort of partisan hackery as a raider, and I hate it as a defender now too.
R.I.P. Dyakovo
Sylvia Montresor

Ashmoria
Karpathos
~ You may think I’m small, but I have a universe inside my mind. ~

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RiderSyl
Senator
 
Posts: 4802
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:40 pm

And I'll try to get this in before TSP's oligarchs do: If you truly don't care what anyone but your allies think, then why post it in the NSGP forum? Keep it within your echo-chamber if all you want to hear is echos.
Last edited by RiderSyl on Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
R.I.P. Dyakovo
Sylvia Montresor

Ashmoria
Karpathos
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Kringalia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 788
Founded: Feb 03, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Kringalia » Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:55 pm

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:nor taken me up on helping me to file a case disputing these claims in TSP's preferred manner.

In accordance with our Proscription Act, any individual who has been subject to a proscription "may challenge the issuing authority's determination" before our High Court. Here are some tips on how to approach the Court:

  • Generally, individuals are given wide latitude on how they want to structure their cases, but the Court expects, at a minimum, that you cite the relevant laws that support your case and explain why your case has merit.
  • If you have evidence in the form of telegrams, logs, posts or any form of communication, screenshots tend to be preferred over plain text.
  • Obviously the preferred venue for filing a case would be our regional forum. If you cannot (or will not) file a case personally, however, you can send your case filing directly to the Chief Justice, who would post it on the forum, or hire a defence counsel who could file and argue a case on your behalf.
If you have additional questions on the procedures of the Court or the filing of cases, I would be happy to answer them. It should go without saying, but the High Court does not follow a government agenda, nor does it have any vested interest in either upholding or overturning the proscriptions. If you (or anyone else) contests their proscriptions, you and the Cabinet will both get a fair hearing.

Kris Kringle
Chief Justice of the South Pacific
Last edited by Kringalia on Wed Jul 25, 2018 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Delegate of the South Pacific (x2) | Vice Delegate (x1) | Minister of Regional Affairs (x2) | Minister of Foreign Affairs (x1) | Deputy Minister of Regional Affairs (x3) | Member of the Committee for State Security (Current)
Federal Constitutional Republic | President Todd Wilcox | GDP $834 billion | Population 19 million | Founding Member of the Southern Cooperation Organisation

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RiderSyl
Senator
 
Posts: 4802
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:02 pm

Kringalia wrote:It should go without saying, but the High Court does not follow a government agenda, nor does it have any vested interest in either upholding or overturning the proscriptions.


Image
R.I.P. Dyakovo
Sylvia Montresor

Ashmoria
Karpathos
~ You may think I’m small, but I have a universe inside my mind. ~

User avatar
Kringalia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 788
Founded: Feb 03, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Kringalia » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:10 pm

The Court has ruled both for and against the Government in the past, depending on how well a case was argued, so unless you have actual evidence of a case being decided in an undue manner...
Delegate of the South Pacific (x2) | Vice Delegate (x1) | Minister of Regional Affairs (x2) | Minister of Foreign Affairs (x1) | Deputy Minister of Regional Affairs (x3) | Member of the Committee for State Security (Current)
Federal Constitutional Republic | President Todd Wilcox | GDP $834 billion | Population 19 million | Founding Member of the Southern Cooperation Organisation

User avatar
RiderSyl
Senator
 
Posts: 4802
Founded: Jan 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby RiderSyl » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:14 pm

Sorry. The evidence contains classified info. :hug:
R.I.P. Dyakovo
Sylvia Montresor

Ashmoria
Karpathos
~ You may think I’m small, but I have a universe inside my mind. ~

User avatar
Kringalia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 788
Founded: Feb 03, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Kringalia » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:21 pm

Damn...I knew I should've kept my security clearance. >_<
Delegate of the South Pacific (x2) | Vice Delegate (x1) | Minister of Regional Affairs (x2) | Minister of Foreign Affairs (x1) | Deputy Minister of Regional Affairs (x3) | Member of the Committee for State Security (Current)
Federal Constitutional Republic | President Todd Wilcox | GDP $834 billion | Population 19 million | Founding Member of the Southern Cooperation Organisation

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Roavin
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1025
Founded: Apr 07, 2016
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Roavin » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:33 pm

RiderSyl wrote:inb4 Roavin's spin
EDIT: oops, i think he saw me call that


Yup. Hello, Gameplay. It's been a while. And hi, Syl, your love of hating TSP is always lovely <3

You know what's nice though? No longer being in Cabinet. Which means I have to think less about how I word things.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:-snip-


It should generally be said that several of these bullet points don't necessarily relate to the criteria, but provide context.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:>Even taken at face value, item A is more relevant to the region The Black Hawks, as "The South Pacific is considered hostile in terms of Gameplay by The Black Hawks" is a statement of formal TBH position, not particularly of my personal views. It's odd, therefore to see it applied only to me, unlike later line items in this proscription list which are applied to entire invader regions.


So are you saying your statement should be taken as the official view of the Council of the Hawks? I'm sure Farengeto will be happy to expand it to the entire organization, if so. Would be a shame, there are quite a few TBHers hanging out in our Discord.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:>Item B (besides being an incomplete, nonsense sentence, I can only assume) is nonsense. As Discussed Previously, concerns regarding the at the time pending possibility of TBH and the SPSF working together were raised with their military leader at the time, who then validated said concerns, apologized, and said the causes for concern would not happen again. I know that Roavin has enjoyed twisting that interaction for years now, but I continue to be happy to share the actual content of that conversation to easily disprove the more salacious claims stemming from it.


I don't mind, because it's quite clear what you were doing. Imki wanted an independent military that works with both sides. You knew this. Unfortunately, I got in the way, because at the time I was SPSF's best soldier and rather defender-leaning. So you used an incident that was in no way related to you to basically blackmail Imki into saying "kick Roavin or don't work with us" so that SPSF can be another obsequious piler force for your ops. Good thing Imki has a spine.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:>I'd love to dispute the claims being made in items C and D. As was requested of the regions in question many times without delivery, details specific claims there and I'll be happy to counter them. Item D, "blackmail," is particularly disingenuous. Whether you're referring to GreyGhost (who was the deputy MOFA during most of these incidents, afaik) or Elfin, I doubt either would still be my friends today if I'd had a habit of blackmailing them.


Hmm, let's see. Oh, I'm sorry, Grey stated she was "bullied", not "blackmailed" (and you didn't refute that characterization). The details aren't there but there was something there that made them think there was enough reasons to do it in the first place, no matter how frivolous you think the full blacklisting was.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:>Item E, as with Item A, taken at face value should apply to the region, not to me as an individual. I do not generally individually conspire to overthrow any regions, but rather organize operations on behalf of The Black Hawks. And, to additionally note, Rai has been head of the Talon Division of TBH for quite some time, placing him in charge of any and all TBH sleeper operations, infiltration, etc etc. My roles in Terra Division are mainly technical these days, mucking with forum conversion and recruitment namely.

>I'd love to see evidence of this item. As far as I know, I'm not currently orchestrating any large or small scale efforts with the aim of overthrow the government of TSP, or even like, influencing votes there, or hell even just to make anyone there particularly ill and annoyed. I've enjoyed rumors of y'alls internal politics being a toxic mess recently, but that's about as far as my catharsis against your region has gone.


The evidence explicitly suggests you doing it, not TBH or even just another Council member. That's why the proscription focuses on you - it didn't show TBH doing anything, or you using TBH resources to do anything (unlike in HYDRA's case, where McMannia did use the entire organization to move against TSP). We're not as dumb or irrational or nonsensical as most of GP (and especially Syl <3) seems to think we are.

And no, we're not telling you what the evidence is, because then we won't get more of that juicy intel.

Evil Wolf wrote:Oh, I didn't even notice this gem until now.

Last Summer, HYDRA launched a direct attack on TSP, attempting to displace Delegate Drugged Monkeys in order to distract the South Pacific from its efforts in fighting against the HYDRA-backed coup of Lazarus


I was rolling.

TSP rewrites history harder than Unibot does.


Did they or did they not pile on Funkadelia last summer? I can probably find statements of support by McMannia too.

I suppose you're riding on a technicality here, so the current version Farengeto posted edited that from "HYDRA-backed" to "supported by HYDRA Command". Which is ... undeniably true.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:The facts of the matter are, 4/5 of the claims made against me do not even accuse me of requisite hostile acts for proscription.


The mentioned criteria were:

(1) Any individual, region or organization that was or is actively involved or complicit in an attempt, successful or otherwise, to illegally overthrow the legitimate government of The South Pacific or its allies and partners, shall be considered hostile.


You did. And we have the evidence supporting it. I'm looking at it as I type on my second monitor.

(3) Any individual, region or organization that has engaged in or has attempted to engage in coordinated espionage against The South Pacific or its allies and partners shall be considered hostile.


See above.

(4) Any individual, region or organization that has or has attempted to sabotage military operations of The South Pacific, outside of normal raiding and defending dynamics, shall be considered hostile.


The Imki/Roavin thing.

So ... I'm not sure what you're on about.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:If this is not the correct forum for such an appeal, please hand hold me through the proper forum for such an appeal as described in your laws, preferably in a way that doesn’t involve giving you my IP.

Ever-Wandering Souls wrote:The Proscription act also explicitly gives me, as an "Individual subject to a proscription," the right to challenge the "determination of hostility," with "Acts of Hostility" being defined by aforementioned requirements of, you know, actual acts. I intend to exercise that right.


Indeed, that is your right, and I refer you to Chief Justice Kringalia's post above for details. Though really, it'd take me negligibly more effort to get your IP than it would be for you to get mine anyway.

Vulturret wrote:Admiral McMannia does not have access to the Founder nation of the Ragerian Imperium. If you bothered to learn your shit before making this statement, you'd realize that I, Vulturret, am the Emperor of the Ragerian Imperium. This can be found in a variety of means including, but not limited to: my forum signatures across various NS forums and the one this post is on, the Imperium's World Factbook Entry, or the forum header of the Imperium's off-site forums. Thusly, because I am Emperor I am the founder of the Imperium. The Constitution of Rageria could not be clearer: "The Emperor must be the Founder of the on-site region." This on-site region is legally defined in the Appendix, as "http://www.nationstates.net/region-the_ragerian_imperium/." As if it couldn't be clearer, McMannia isn't the founder. If he was, he would be in clear violation of Ragerian law.


Mmkay, fair enough, a simple oversight that doesn't at all undermine the basic points. Farengeto's statement above already corrected that, even

Vulturret wrote:
Mastermind of all hostilities towards TSP emanating from HYDRA and TRI, and does not fear using any and all resources of those regions for such purposes.


This is another complete fabrication of the truth. I may be willing to cut you some slack on this one because you don't have the same limitless access to HYDRA and TRI command forums and chats that I enjoy, but I assume that from actions you claim occurred, you'd be able to figure out that McMannia doesn't lead everything or force our troops to do anything. Admiral McMannia has done limitless incredible work for both HYDRA and TRI, and has come up with numerous awesome ideas for our intelligence and counter-intelligence missions pertaining to the South Pacific and other regions, but to suggest that he is the "mastermind of all hostilities" is laughable.

The Ragerian Armada and HYDRA (at the time it existed) were never run unilaterally, nor are currently run in that manner. There has never (to my knowledge, which includes significant research of HYDRA command chats dating back several years) a single mastermind of anything. Any and all actions, whether they be a simple banjection or these grand-scale intelligence operations are (and were) never made without first consulting the rest (or at least another member of) the Imperial War Command (or the Directorate, at the time, Heads in the case of the DoT). The choice of the word "mastermind" was undoubtedly poor and false. Now, not going to lie, Admiral McMannia has come up with a fair portion of the ideas of our intelligence operations, but to suggest that "all" of them were his idea or on his orders is, again, extremely false. Again, orders are given with bilateral consensus. As for ideas, many members of the Directorate and the Imperial War Command have had brilliant ideas related to intelligence missions and in general. Who knows? Maybe even I have a good idea once or twice in a blue moon.


You forget that you and Aav were misguided enough to give me officers-level access to the HYDRA Ops Discord server a while back. I was very kind and didn't even steal any logs (and even left a very nice message), but McMannia fostering a hostile stance towards TSP could not have been clearer.

Vulturret wrote:Moving on, we should address your claims that [he/us] "does not [/do not] fear using any and all resources of those regions for such purposes." This part, unlike the first two I addressed is half-true. HYDRA no longer has resources, as all of them have been transferred to The Ragerian Armada. McMannia doesn't have un-restricted access to all resources of the Imperium, such as our founder nation (as I mentioned), server, admin panel, etc. You're not recognizing the diferrence between the main region and the Armada. I will say McMannia, in his capacity as a member of The Imperial War Command, does have un-restricted access to military resources, including but not limited to: piling orders, telegram stamps, sleeper lists, intelligence info and the like.


McMannia continues to be part of the Imperial War Command, as you stated, is responsible for intelligence and counter-intelligence work as you stated, some of which has targeted The South Pacific as you admitted above, so even just based on your statements alone, the proscription is entirely justified. And even if he checks in with others first, nonetheless McMannia was the one that ordered, for example, the (cute) attempt to displace the TSP Delegate last summer.

Vulturret wrote:To address the second part of your point, not only is McMannia and the entire War Command not afraid to use our resources on The South Pacific should it be necessary, we are prepared to use our resources on any hostile region for any reason. This isn't something I speak about lightly, we don't wish to have to unleash fury on any region or organization. Provocation, however, does (and in the case of the South Pacific has) occur, and that is one reason why missions against an enemy could occur. Said missions could also occur to defend our security, support and defend our allies, and the like. However, such offensive actions are utilized with caution, we're not stupid and recognize the chances of retaliation for specific actions we may be considering taking. To sum it up, we only take offensive actions against enemies, people, regions, or organizations who engage in unwarranted provocation, to defend our own security, or to protect our allies.


So basically you're agreeing with the proscription.

Vulturret wrote:Now, moving onto TRI's proscription.

Last summer, HYDRA launched a direct attack on TSP in order to distract the South Pacific from its efforts in fighting against the HYDRA-backed coup of Lazarus


I wasn't present on the operation in question (nor was I on NS at the time), but the operation was merely defensive, obviously. The logic for this is pretty basic: Prior to the time of the operation in question, then Prime Minister Roavin had announced the region's supports for La Resistance, an informal military/political organization trying to push the Celestial Union's government (which was deemed illegal by Funkadelia at the time, [which was a view shared by HYDRA's leadership] following the establishment of the Undead Dominion) back into power. The South Pacific Special Forces routinely engaged in attrition runs that sought to unnecessarily diminish the influence of the rightful delegate and the Border Control officers.

Due to the fact that HYDRA and Lazarus were informal allies (as mentioned, HYDRA was assisting Funkadelia's government with endorsement count), HYDRA's leadership viewed TSP's statement in support of (as well as the mentioned attrition operations) as a direct hostility against a region that HYDRA was friendly with at the time. Thusly, in an effort to support a friendly partner, HYDRA engaged in a military operation designed solely for the purpose of protecting what was (at the time) the legitimate government of Lazarus. The operation was not meant to undermine TSP, specifically, nor was it a direct attack, it was actually used as a scapegoat for a bigger problem. So, yes, maybe you do have reason to proscribe us. But your facts still aren't entirely correct...


... you just stated what we stated, with a bit more detail. So basically, yes, you attacked TSP. Plain and simple. Proscription justified.

Vulturret wrote:
Sensitive Intel suggests that HYDRA/TRI had a legislator planted in TSP for the purpose of stealing internal logs and information.


I can honestly say without a tug at my conscience that I was not privy to the origins or information acquired from this so-called "operation" that allegedly happened and cannot confirm its existence. I also will not speculate on the chances that this happened under HYDRA leadership prior to my introduction to the directorate. I can confirm that none of this happened during my tenure as Commander-in-Chief of the Ragerian Armada.


Ask McMannia. He knows.

Vulturret wrote:Regardless of whether or not this did occur, I can confirm that Cabinet level leadership of the South Pacific has planted sleeper agents in the Ragerian Armada before. With this in mind, if the actions did occur, they were most certainly warranted.


Oh? See, if that did happen, I'd know about it, and I don't (and honestly, TRI isn't important enough to send agents to). I'd argue that's a lie.

Vulturret wrote:Now that I have addressed all of Farengeto’s points, I’d love to make some of my own. Firstly, TSP legislators should be ashamed of their executive government. Farengeto has realized that it is futile to attack the Land of Kings and Emperors and Balder and moved his campaign onto Lone Wolves United, The Black Hawks, and The Ragerian Imperium. Secondly, TSP’s executive government fails to complete the most basic research tasks.


That's ... an interesting spin. Not one I've heard before, either.

Vulturret wrote:Thirdly, I feel the need to address the bans McMannia and I have received from TSP’s Discord server. Under the Proscription Act, this is debatably illegal. Section 3.3 states “(3) Upon proscription of a region or organization, any members of the South Pacific affected by that proscription will have 7 days to demonstrably renounce their association to the satisfaction of the issuing authority before the proscription is enforced.” The law is plain, what is debatable is whether or not McMannia and I are members of the South Pacific, solely be residency, but regardless the move was petty. Just because the administration of the Discord is in line with Farengeto’s policies, doesn’t mean that TSP’s other Legislators don’t have a right to know the other side of the issue.


I refer you to the Chief Justice's post above. If you wish to submit an appeal, it is your right to do so.

Vulturret wrote:It shows TSP’s cowardliness extends far beyond their attacks on TRI, TBH, Balder, and the LKE. He is pushing defender politics into TSP, and its Legislators do not deserve for this to happen.


I was wondering when the D-word would drop, and it took a fat non-sequitur to do so. What does complying with the law (i.e. applying off-site bans in response to full proscriptions) have to do with defender politics? Did you know that Balder does the same?

RiderSyl wrote:Who cares if it's legal? It proscribes raiders. Clearly that's all that matters.

I hated this sort of partisan hackery as a raider, and I hate it as a defender now too.


Note that these proscriptions were being formulated during the previous Cabinet (in which I was Prime Minister). Had it been defender or independent or reverse goat-cheese-presbyterian regions exhibiting this, it would have been just the same (and indeed I'm waiting for Enadia, formerly defender and now independent-ish, to step out of line).

And also, it's legal, see above.

RiderSyl wrote:And I'll try to get this in before TSP's oligarchs do: If you truly don't care what anyone but your allies think, then why post it in the NSGP forum? Keep it within your echo-chamber if all you want to hear is echos.


To (less verbosely) paraphrase something that Onder once said: To not offer the counterpoint to enemy rhetoric is to let the enemies win. I think, for once, he said a very sensible thing.




TL;DR: Souls is wrong, Syl hates TSP, and Vulturret basically agrees with the proscription but can't get himself to say it out loud.
Last edited by Roavin on Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RoavinMinister of Military Affairs in the South Pacific

“Better die a Cormac than live an Onder.”

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Vincent Drake
Envoy
 
Posts: 326
Founded: Dec 08, 2016
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Vincent Drake » Wed Jul 25, 2018 10:39 pm

"Cabinet of the South Pacific
Proscriptions"

In my wildly sleep-deprived from RL work state, I misread this as TSP having an entire cabinet/division of government just for proscriptions. :lol:
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Founder of European Union

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Ever-Wandering Souls
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6375
Founded: Jan 01, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ever-Wandering Souls » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:17 pm

I'll be pursuing this though the proper channels from here, rather than in GP, until such a time as said channels may break down.

...or, as the saying goes, "see you in court!"
Last edited by Ever-Wandering Souls on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Proud Raider; General of The Black Hawks
TG me anytime; I'm always happy to talk about anything!

The Alicorns (Equestria) wrote:Let them stay, no need to badmouth them...From our view a bunch of nations just came in, seized the delegate position, and changed a few superficial things...we play NationStates differently...there's really no reason for us to be butthurt.
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8944227
http://www.nationstates.net/page=rmb/postid=8951258

Misley wrote:
Hobbesistan wrote:Don't think I understand the question.
The color or what?..

Jesus, Hobbes, it's 2015. You can't just call someone "the color".

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How Do I Telegram API?

Omnis delenda est.

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Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9025
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:32 am

Vincent Drake wrote:"Cabinet of the South Pacific
Proscriptions"

In my wildly sleep-deprived from RL work state, I misread this as TSP having an entire cabinet/division of government just for proscriptions. :lol:

Just another one of my masterminded plots. I’m becoming Prime Minister by process of elimination.

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Evil Wolf
Minister
 
Posts: 2007
Founded: Apr 28, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Evil Wolf » Thu Jul 26, 2018 5:44 am

Farengeto wrote:Funkadelia of Lone Wolves United (criteria 1, 2, 5)
Pattern of gaining citizenship in regions to promote factional politics, including in 2016 when he gained Legislator status to promote defender politics
Pattern of voter importation in at least Lazarus dating back to at least 2016


So in that case, we should expect TSP to Proscribe Benevolent Thomas very soon, eh?

I somehow rather doubt TSP won't apply their famous double standard that has gained them so much infamy and distrust amongst the GCRs.
It's ok! You can trust me! I've been Commended!

Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.

Mallorea and Riva should be a Game Moderator Game Administrator.

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Roavin
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1025
Founded: Apr 07, 2016
Scandinavian Liberal Paradise

Postby Roavin » Thu Jul 26, 2018 9:53 am

Evil Wolf wrote:
Farengeto wrote:Funkadelia of Lone Wolves United (criteria 1, 2, 5)
Pattern of gaining citizenship in regions to promote factional politics, including in 2016 when he gained Legislator status to promote defender politics
Pattern of voter importation in at least Lazarus dating back to at least 2016


So in that case, we should expect TSP to Proscribe Benevolent Thomas very soon, eh?

I somehow rather doubt TSP won't apply their famous double standard that has gained them so much infamy and distrust amongst the GCRs.


Can't speak for the current government, obviously, but in my opinion, if BT was in on Funk's shenanigans, then it's worth talking about.
RoavinMinister of Military Affairs in the South Pacific

“Better die a Cormac than live an Onder.”

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Fratt
Attaché
 
Posts: 79
Founded: Mar 20, 2011
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Fratt » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:16 am

Evil Wolf wrote:I somehow rather doubt TSP won't apply their famous double standard that has gained them so much infamy and distrust amongst the GCRs.


But they are allied with half of them. :P
A spambot wrote:
You said that the NPO should not change it's core culture.

Literally everyone else, including the NPO, realizes and understands that NPO culture is the problem.
I'm sure these are the best towel warmers and it will come in handy here.
So you either don't realize that the NPO's core culture caused a war and the subversion of countless regions, or you just don't care.

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Devi Vytherin
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 135
Founded: Mar 12, 2018
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Devi Vytherin » Thu Jul 26, 2018 10:36 am

Roavin wrote:
Evil Wolf wrote:
So in that case, we should expect TSP to Proscribe Benevolent Thomas very soon, eh?

I somehow rather doubt TSP won't apply their famous double standard that has gained them so much infamy and distrust amongst the GCRs.


Can't speak for the current government, obviously, but in my opinion, if BT was in on Funk's shenanigans, then it's worth talking about.


Whoosh :roll:
~Devi Skollvaldr
Subversive Userite Raider

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Queen Yuno
Diplomat
 
Posts: 636
Founded: Dec 30, 2015
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Queen Yuno » Thu Jul 26, 2018 12:53 pm

Roavin wrote:
Hmm, let's see. Oh, I'm sorry, Grey stated she was "bullied", not "blackmailed" (and you didn't refute that characterization). The details aren't there but there was something there that made them think there was enough reasons to do it in the first place, no matter how frivolous you think the full blacklisting was.


My reaction upon reading this:

"OH shit, Grey getting bullied by Souls?!"

I needed to see this so.

I looked through that log, there is only 1 instance where it mentions the word "bully"


Grey - 12/24/2017
That's why I'm being so harsh here. But I do admit this could've been handled better and that's why I understand your concerns to this matter. It will be taken into consideration as long as I'm breathing in TEP. But we won't be bullied, either.
That was the main note we ended on
we were satisfied, and we also took away to let it go a bit


No, *she* is not getting bullied by Souls.
*we* as in the group/gov/region.
TBH sent some ridiculous, ominously brash telegrams to TEP's MoFA (idiotic move there) that burned their bridges (which they can publicize the telegrams if they want at this point, it makes no difference since the worst stuff was already leaked)
Keep in mind this why TEP did not leak any "heat of the moment" logs to gameplay, because it gets taken apart and misattributed and misstated just like this. Souls has made various gameplay blunders and can grind on your nerves with his posts, but he is nowhere near "bully" or "harasser", or whatnot.

Other than that, idk about the rest, just defending a friend in this 1 instance that I'm well informed about.
Supreme Loligarchy
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"Vote early, vote often." -Pallaith
Sierra Lyricalia wrote:
Galiantus III wrote:


...is there a reason the logo for the anti-NPO New Year's jumpers looks like the butt and legs of a kneeling naked lady? :unsure:


Imperium Anglorum wrote:Lol badge hunting accusations against people who already have the badge. You don't get your whole page covered in badges when you pass more resolutions, you know.


Vancouvia wrote:
Vancouvia wrote:

Alright my bad I guess I'll check back in December 21st


No way

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Evil Wolf
Minister
 
Posts: 2007
Founded: Apr 28, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Evil Wolf » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:00 pm

Roavin wrote:Can't speak for the current government, obviously, but in my opinion, if BT was in on Funk's shenanigans, then it's worth talking about.


As you well know, Roavin, BT did all that vote rigging in Lazarus as part of his own plans, and not part of Funk's "shenanigans". If anything, it was the other way around.

Difference being that TSP likes BT and TGW and I am sure privately approved of his actions at the time. Funk, on the other hand, turned raider, and not just any raider, but LWU. So Funk gets proscribed and BT gets off scot-free.

Because that's how TSP rolls. Self-proclaimed champions of democracy indeed.
Last edited by Evil Wolf on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
It's ok! You can trust me! I've been Commended!

Kryozerkia wrote:In the good old days raiding was illegal
Crazy Girl wrote:Invading was never illegal
[violet] wrote:There is supposed to be an invasion game.

Mallorea and Riva should be a Game Moderator Game Administrator.

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Escade
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1019
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Escade » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:02 pm

I'm fine with the proscriptions themselves; it's the subpar presentation and lack of conviction or any sort of respectable authority that is galling here. I don't even think elaborate reasons always need to be given but at least stand by your convictions (I'm proscribed in three regions after all, at the very least, without really knowing why).

I think though we've entered an era where the cabinet of TSP is not even at a subpar level at actually playing the game and fueled by insecurity, incompetence and lack of adequate communication skills. That's unfortunate.


Carry on then.
Last edited by Escade on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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McManniaa
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 110
Founded: Feb 24, 2014
Father Knows Best State

Postby McManniaa » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:14 pm

Evil Wolf wrote:
Roavin wrote:Can't speak for the current government, obviously, but in my opinion, if BT was in on Funk's shenanigans, then it's worth talking about.


As you well know, Roavin, BT did all that vote rigging in Lazarus as part of his own plans, and not part of Funk's "shenanigans". If anything, it was the other way around.

Difference being that TSP likes BT and TGW and I am sure privately approved of his actions at the time. Funk, on the other hand, turned raider, and not just any raider, but LWU. So Funk gets proscribed and BT gets off scot-free.

Because that's how TSP rolls. Self-proclaimed champions of democracy indeed.


I think we need to convene at the Hague. That burn was so white hot it was practically a war crime. :clap:
Last edited by McManniaa on Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Escade
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1019
Founded: Apr 11, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby Escade » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:24 pm

McManniaa wrote:
Evil Wolf wrote:
As you well know, Roavin, BT did all that vote rigging in Lazarus as part of his own plans, and not part of Funk's "shenanigans". If anything, it was the other way around.

Difference being that TSP likes BT and TGW and I am sure privately approved of his actions at the time. Funk, on the other hand, turned raider, and not just any raider, but LWU. So Funk gets proscribed and BT gets off scot-free.

Because that's how TSP rolls. Self-proclaimed champions of democracy indeed.


I think we need to convene at the Hague. That burn was so white hot it was practically a war crime. :clap:


Or perhaps you lack the wit to go beyond the merely basic. This is NSGP, whether something is presented as a coup, or a revolution or a liberation, sometimes merely depends on how much people like or don't like the people, places, and things involved.

I see the celebration of the mediocre and banal spreading like a disease.

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The Church of Satan
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1004
Founded: Apr 15, 2013
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby The Church of Satan » Thu Jul 26, 2018 2:25 pm

Evil Wolf wrote:As you well know, Roavin, BT did all that vote rigging in Lazarus as part of his own plans, and not part of Funk's "shenanigans". If anything, it was the other way around.

It's not like he couped a GCR or anything. Funny how this only matters to you because Funk is was one of the (few) pawns in your dead region. >_>

Evil Wolf wrote:Difference being that TSP likes BT and TGW and I am sure privately approved of his actions at the time. Funk, on the other hand, turned raider, and not just any raider, but LWU. So Funk gets proscribed and BT gets off scot-free.

Because that's how TSP rolls. Self-proclaimed champions of democracy indeed.

Funk was proscribed for couping one of TSPs allies. When BT coups a GCR feel free to make a stink about it. At least then you might have a legitimate grievance. But probably not because couping GCRs is your thing, right? You don't even have any regard for the rule of law in NS anyways. :roll:
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