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NS Military Realism Consultation Thread Vol. 11.0

A place to put national factbooks, embassy exchanges, and other information regarding the nations of the world. [In character]

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Gallia-
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Mon Mar 19, 2018 1:04 pm

Prosorusiya wrote:Have you met him?


No he's been dead for like 10 years.

Prosorusiya wrote:He’s a pompous, self important ass


*Was, and so what. Plenty of intelligent and prodigious people were pompous, self important asses. Honestly that just makes him sound better since he was smashing the Japanimation Ceiling in 1985 and probably explains why.

Prosorusiya wrote:Prime time, general audience anime started with AstroBoy and Gigantor,


And it would have ended there without Robotech or whatever butchered anime takes Robotech's place. So you get Bowdlerized anime for like 10 years anyway. Robotech was necessarily a product of its time.

You're just mad about it because you like Macross I think. It's the only reasonable position. Being mad about a creation because "the creator was annoying" isn't a position. It's absurdity.

Prosorusiya wrote:but it’s “creator” overstates it’s importance massively.


I doubt he did. He probably understated it. Robotech itself was massively important. It was literally the biggest anime of the 1980s. If Robotech doesn't appear, either something else does, or anime dies in America for a few years. Then it comes back with Bowdlerized Sailor Moon that cuts out the friendships and romance elements or something because they're "too mature for 7 year olds". Which were the target audience of shows like Speed Racer and Astroboy. And any Japanimation before Robotech, TBH. Which is why Robotech was important. It raised the bar both artistically and plot-wise to something that teenagers could enjoy.

The actual prototype of shows like Sailor Moon in the first place!

Prosorusiya wrote:Sailor Moon, for example, has had a much larger impact on popular culture overall and Pokémon


And you think it would have had such an impact had television executives decided to butcher either of these shows instead of Robotech? Did you not stop to consider that Robotech was both an unavoidable consequence of its time and a groundbreaking series that paved the way for future shows to come later? No, of course not. Without Robotech you end up with the 1990s resembling the 1980s and people will say it's hip to hate Sailor Moon or Pokemon because "it's not the original" whatever. OTOH you'd have a prototype for the first truly massive arc-spanning animes to come.

Prosorusiya wrote:Whereas I didn’t even know it existed prior to my unfortunate encounter.


You can't judge it properly at all because you didn't experience it at the time. Neither can anyone judge it properly who experienced it at the time. You're the opposite of rose tinted glasses and just as bad or worse.

I, however, can judge it because I never experienced it period (I only know about it in passing and its history), so I am not blinded by bias towards its creator because he said something mean to me nor blinded by nostalgia because I watched it in my childhood. I'm a totally neutral observer who is pointing out that the alternative to Robotech is either some incomprehensible Engrish thing that no red-blooded Reagan-era TV executive would show on their network to 10 year olds, or doing the whole "Macross butchering" 10 years later with something like Sailor Moon, perhaps to much less warm of a reception.

Robotech raised the bar for American audiences' expectations of anime. It went from "hey this is something little Timmy can watch" to "15 year olds". An almost doubling of the intended age audience! Majestic achievement. Mr. Macek basically laid the ground work for American television showing things like Sailor Moon, which because of Robotech, were considered prime material for targeting the "teenage" audience. He did this by cutting up and stitching together three series about spaceships. So what.

I have no love for either Robotech or Macross, so I actually don't give a fuck about what happened between the two, I just know that Mr. Macek made an influential anime that changed the way American audiences and executives saw "Japanimation" and basically paved the way for modern form of "anime".

Robotech wasn't a show for kids which is important because everything before Robotech was literal children's shows.

Prosorusiya wrote:Not all anime fans in the mainstream audience are heterosexual white males who were preteens in the 1980s. Check that privilege, bro.


Astonishing. The only thing you got right is that I'm white and that's not even difficult considering 3/4ths of Americans are white. :roll:

e: Oh yeah and I have a dick I guess but that's not hard to guess either. How many people post on NSMRC who are female? You can count on one hand.

Prosorusiya wrote:that to me is a “bad” anime if there ever was one.


Does this mean that Metal Gear Solid is a bad video game? I guess it must! If the "creator" (Macek was more like the "facilitator" TBH; the "creator" was literally the "collective consciousness of the American public in the mid 1980s") is somewhat unpalatable to one person, it must make anything he touches "bad". That's not a valuable opinion or anything it's just a very basic bias.

Prosorusiya wrote:Now speaking artistically?


Is all you can speak about, TBH. Using the creator as a proxy for creation is the lowest of lows. Successful, smart people tend to be dicks. So what? You probably just don't understand what he was saying since the man had decades of experience in television and knew things you didn't, was probably annoyed at explaining, and maybe even tired since con question panels can be exhausting for the people who have to endure them. I'd be a dick too.

It reflects absolutely nothing on his work or his ability to accomplish things. Otherwise Amazon and Tesla Motors are absolutely unsuccessful, trash companies that did nothing relevant whatsoever.

Theodosiya wrote:It distracts from more important things...


Nothing is more important than waifus.
Last edited by Gallia- on Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:10 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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The Corparation
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Postby The Corparation » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:17 pm

Gallia- wrote:
Theodosiya wrote:It distracts from more important things...


Nothing is more important than waifus.

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Crookfur
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Postby Crookfur » Mon Mar 19, 2018 2:19 pm

Theodosiya wrote:Why do people like anime? It distracts from more important things...

Why does anyone like any television or cinematic entertainment?

Really there is such a wide range of "anime" that there is more or less something for everybody if you can remove the "Japanese cartoons" stigma from your thoughts
Although obviously if you like sci-fi/fantasy and action you are likely going to find more you like particularly if you rely on english dubs/translations.

Anyway the means by which various western audiences were introduced to anime are quite interesting as they differ a lot from nation to nation. The UK got relatively few of the early Americanized kids shows and one of the biggest profile ones was thunderbirds 2049 which got the main Saturday morning BBC slot for a season. Anime was driven more by the BBC and channel 4 treating the studio ghibly stuff and Akira as high profile foreign cinema as part of thier public service remit although channel 4 did show the more "adult" early 90s series like fist of the north star in late night weekend slots. Of course then Pokemon happened and the cable/satellite cartoon channels went mad for dragon ball etc.
An interesting contrast is France where apparently they got pretty much all of Gundam in regular weeknight early evening slots and as such anime is seen as far less geeky in France than it is in the UK/US.
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Prosorusiya
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Prosorusiya » Mon Mar 19, 2018 3:52 pm

Galia, I am not sure now we are talking about the same person now, since whoever I met was very much alive five years ago. Whoever they were they were connected with the production of Robotech, though.

Also, I didn’t intend to attack you as an individual, but rather the view of mainstream anime viewers as white neck beards. Although the stereotype isn’t undeserved, there are a lot female fans out there, in fact at the same con this last year I saw many of them as the theme was Magical Girl vs Giant Robots. Got my Japan -purchased English language manga signed by the Sailor Chibi Moon VA.

Incidentally, I approve of and envy your choice of waifu, Holo is best sarcastic wolf.

I’m not sure what my own waifu would be... I do quite like both Erwin and Kay from Girls und Panzer though.

—-

Back on topic here for a change, and relating partly to governmental structure as well as plausible deniability, I am beginning to wonder if my Union Republic of the USSR ought to have its Spetznav controlled by the KGB rather than the MVD, as it would give them the ability to go to fight abroad clandestinely, as they did irl in Afghanistan. On the other hand, given any such op would be clandestine anyhow, maybe the MVD could get away with it too?

Would Interpol ever help coordinate an international operation involving letting foreign police into another country to apprehend a terrorist threat or is that beyond their power?

On the subject of PMCs, I wonder how an avowedly Communist nation would justify creating their own, given that such organizations exist solely to profit from war? Dub the freedom fighters, export the revolution, drink the cognitive dissonance juice?
Last edited by Prosorusiya on Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:43 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:05 pm

Prosorusiya wrote:Galia, I am not sure now we are talking about the same person now, since whoever I met was very much alive five years ago. Whoever they were they were connected with the production of Robotech, though.


Carl Macek died in April 2010. If you saw this person after that, it obviously couldn't have been him.
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Prosorusiya
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Prosorusiya » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:26 pm

Ok, clearly it must have been someone else involved with production. Which is even worse, since that person not only would have not really been involved in the shows sucesses but would be making the work of a deceased colluege look bad in the process.

Edit: Ok credit where credit is due... I believe the person I dealt with was/is a man by the name of Kevin McKeever, who has worked on Robotech but was not involved in its creation, at least in its original form (there have been many sequels to the original 1980s run). Apparently, he was merely involved in taking the demographics figures for the program during its original run during the 1980s. Which goes a long way towards explaining why not only he couldn’t answer my question intelligently (not actually being part of the production staff) but wouldn’t shut up about how good the shows ratings where. So not only is he a blowhard, he apparently is a unimportant blowhard. Appropriately he has a production credit for Jackass.

Given his limited involvement with the series, though, I’ll guess I’ll give Robotech a pass. No point in tar and feathering it if its creator isn’t actually a jerk.
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Hayo
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Ex-Nation

Postby Hayo » Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:52 pm

What's the best way of organizing and controlling artillery on a divisional level? Also, to what extent should the divisional commander control the fire support plan? Should fires be driven in a more decentralized manner by forward observers, or should it be a more top-down sort of thing?
Last edited by Hayo on Mon Mar 19, 2018 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kanugues Wed
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Ex-Nation

Postby Kanugues Wed » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:35 pm

What do you think of the idea of having both design bureaus and private MIC competing for military contracts? I'm thinking of it as a way to hopefully reduce development costs.
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Taihei Tengoku
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Postby Taihei Tengoku » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:50 pm

Hayo wrote:What's the best way of organizing and controlling artillery on a divisional level? Also, to what extent should the divisional commander control the fire support plan? Should fires be driven in a more decentralized manner by forward observers, or should it be a more top-down sort of thing?

Both. Fires should be organized at the lowest possible level for the intended scope of the effect, either by formal distribution or by attachment/detachment. In an operation assets can be held by the commander during certain times and released to subordinates for others.

Kanugues Wed wrote:What do you think of the idea of having both design bureaus and private MIC competing for military contracts? I'm thinking of it as a way to hopefully reduce development costs.

That's just having R&D labs compete with each other.
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Gallia-
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:12 pm

Prosorusiya wrote:Galia, I am not sure now we are talking about the same person now,


It doesn't really matter because Carl Macek is dead and the only thing that is true is that Robotech was the most important Westernization of anime of the 1980s. Without Robotech, you don't have the foundation to build upon for Sailor Moon in the first place. It's likely something else besides Macross would be butchered to fit the bill of TV executives in the 1980s, though, so it's not impossible that you get something like Robotech, but maybe with Dragonball Z or something similar.

I could rant about how trite Sailor Moon is but it doesn't make me look smart because Sailor Moon was the prototype for magical girl fanservice anime. Robotech was the prototype for true source material adaptation, though, in the sense that it tried to retain the tone and visceral nature of Macross, even though it stapled together three different but similarly named series. It's a bit like Azumanga's English dub and something that never caught on with the "Comic Book Guy" crowd of anime fandom.

The CBG anime fandom are the people who complain about it being "not Macross q_q" if you haven't caught that already.

Prosorusiya wrote:Apparently, he was merely involved in taking the demographics figures for the program during its original run during the 1980s. Which goes a long way towards explaining why not only he couldn’t answer my question intelligently (not actually being part of the production staff) but wouldn’t shut up about how good the shows ratings where. So not only is he a blowhard, he apparently is a unimportant blowhard.


He had the 2nd most important job after "bringing mature anime to white civilization" and that job is: "confirming Robotech was making money".

Still an important role because without Robotech making money or if he'd cooked the books or something then Robotech would have failed and you'd be spinning your wheels with Speed Racer and Astroboy trashime for 10 years. Imagine if Sailor Moon were targeted at 5 year olds instead of 15 year olds. Oh wait. So even though Sailor Moon was a flop, Mr. Macek had the TREMENDOUS BRASS BALLS needed to assume that anime would be enjoyed by 14-18 year old sci-fi fans instead of Y7 babs. Anyone who worked for him presumably shared that idea and so they were also heroes to civilization TBH.

Macek was a legend really and IDK who is "McKeever" is but his job at least is important.

Prosorusiya wrote:Back on topic here for a change, and relating partly to governmental structure as well as plausible deniability, I am beginning to wonder if my Union Republic of the USSR ought to have its Spetznav controlled by the KGB rather than the MVD, as it would give them the ability to go to fight abroad clandestinely, as they did irl in Afghanistan. On the other hand, given any such op would be clandestine anyhow, maybe the MVD could get away with it too?


You would use the GRU surely. They would be ethnic battalions controlled by white men, much like the Gurkhas.

Prosorusiya wrote:On the subject of PMCs, I wonder how an avowedly Communist nation would justify creating their own, given that such organizations exist solely to profit from war? Dub the freedom fighters, export the revolution, drink the cognitive dissonance juice?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_Faction

It wouldn't "profit from war". It would just kill people. It would actually be much simpler, because "profit from war" is almost an oxymoron.
Last edited by Gallia- on Mon Mar 19, 2018 7:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Iltica
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Iltica » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:26 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Iltica wrote:This is a terrible idea, but instead of thinking of it as a state-owned 'P'MC, you could view it as "renting out" small portions of the regular armed forces to other nations for a fee. Essentially you're an "ally for hire", making other nations pay you to fight for them.
You would, in many people's eyes, be invading and attacking other nations every time you do this. Then again, I've never really understood why that isn't the case when a normal PMC does anything on foreign soil so maybe no one will care idk.


Being an "ally for hire" is pretty bad as it gives the impression that your nation is a pushover, plus your people would be pretty angry if you sent your soldiers to fight in some foreign war that your nation has no actual part in.
Hence it being a terrible idea, but why does that make you look like a pushover?
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:27 pm

The deadliest soldiers are the biggest POGs. So there may be some merit to the statement.
Last edited by Gallia- on Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Zhouran
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Postby Zhouran » Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:04 pm

Iltica wrote:why does that make you look like a pushover?
"Hey, that fellow over there kills people for money. He must be a complete pussy."

Because it's foreign money from a foreign client. Your soldiers would be getting paid by some wealthy dude from abroad to go overseas in some war-torn nation and fight in some conflict that their nation isn't even a part of in the first place. They're fighting for the interests of others. In the homeland, people would be pretty angry to know that their brothers, fathers or sons are being sent to a war they have no business in, not for national interest like a normal armed intervention but for money paid by a foreign client. Money can easily sway people.
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:22 am

Image

The filename is "sven-and-ole-join-the-army.png".

Because "Sven and Ole" are the most :Minnesota: names I could think of.
Last edited by Gallia- on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:25 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Theodosiya
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Postby Theodosiya » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:29 am

Why outnumbered? Why US deploy smaller number of troops? IF I'm a leader I'll make sure that the ratio is 4 enemy troops to one mine
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Gallia-
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:30 am

One American is worth like 10 foreigners though so it is actually the Russians who are outnumbered.

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Zhouran
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Postby Zhouran » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:49 am

Gallia- wrote:(Image)

>Fictional meme war

>Donnie T. not siding with Vlad to undermine American sovereignty as part of a convoluted le-based 69D Hungry-Hungry Hippos match to defeat the DNC for the 2020 election and get re-elected
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The Akasha Colony
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Postby The Akasha Colony » Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:33 am

Zhouran wrote:Because it's foreign money from a foreign client. Your soldiers would be getting paid by some wealthy dude from abroad to go overseas in some war-torn nation and fight in some conflict that their nation isn't even a part of in the first place. They're fighting for the interests of others. In the homeland, people would be pretty angry to know that their brothers, fathers or sons are being sent to a war they have no business in, not for national interest like a normal armed intervention but for money paid by a foreign client. Money can easily sway people.


This is literally what ODS was.
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New Vihenia
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Postby New Vihenia » Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:45 am

I guess we are still not in the age where EM-railgun become portable. I mean the one having real military utility instead of hobby purpse
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Gallia-
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Postby Gallia- » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:06 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Gallia- wrote:(Image)

>Fictional meme war


>Fictional.

Meanwhile the United States and the Western world are literally at war with Russia and have been since about 1918. :roll:

Zhouran wrote:>Donnie T. not siding with Vlad


He already has, but he's easily impressed by both words and parades so all the U.S. Army has to do to keep him loyal is give him a five minute speech on responsibility every few hours with a brass band playing on a podium. Trump is really the ultimate globalist. No loyalties and no real sense of patriotism to his motherland with a gifted tongue of presenting the opposite. A true Silicon Valley magnate. In reality he's only impressed by shiny things so he will probably go to Russia (much like Steven Seagall and Ron Paul) when he realizes America can't make hypersonic missiles or to the PRC when he realizes they make all his clothes.

But that won't be obvious until the mid-2020s and by then Trump will be out of office and writing a book about his presidency or something.

Clinton would naturally have started Operation Power Drive in 2014 by deploying V US Corps and two armored divisions to Poland on a permanent forward deployment, plan for airland battle, and initiate it in 2018 as part of a comprehensive retaliation attack on Russia's attempt to encroach on NATO borders. Because Clinton was possibly the most excellent foreign policy minder in the entire American government TBH. She understood the true threat of Russia and China, how they think, and what they're doing.

Trump is just stuck in 1995 and can never leave. He thinks America can recover its industrial position from China. He thinks Russia isn't our enemy anymore. He thinks North Korea and Iran are still the biggest threats. Clinton would have built a free trade agreement with the Western world and possibly been able to build the basis for instituting a pan-democratic autarky (something that would take decades of negotiation which is why TTIP and TPP were important), but that's impossible now, so the PRC has more or less won everything it could ever want. Soon Western Europe will collapse, America will retreat to North America, and I guess the PRC moves south like the Japanese did, but without America to stop them.

This is going to be in the next 15-20 years, or next three presidents, you'll see that, but it's on the horizon today since the world is flattening and becoming broadly easier to predict. The only thing that can stand up to the PRC is a unified Free World, and we now have the opposite of that, so the PRC and Russia simply divides and conquers the West. Which is easy when your main enemy does all the hard work of breaking down decades of alliances and friendships for you. The world is literally turning into Why We Fight with all of Eurasia and Africa and Polynesia as the Slave World and North and maybe South America as the Free World tbh.

e: OTOH Canada might collapse to "PRC slave state" status, much as the UK is doing, so that would give them a powerful REE foothold.

Really America's best allies are found in Japan and...really nowhere else. Japan is it. Maybe Poland is OK but Poland is going to become an OBOR member soon enough. Australia, UK, and Germany are all more or less enemies due to their investment in AIIB and funding the spread of autocracy throughout the world. It's hard to think of an ally of America that isn't really as staunch as Japan has been, TBH. Poland is sort of like the Japan of the East I guess re: Russia. Everyone else is somewhere between "probable enemy" to "mediocre".
Last edited by Gallia- on Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:31 pm, edited 7 times in total.

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Iltica
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Postby Iltica » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:36 pm

Zhouran wrote:
Iltica wrote:why does that make you look like a pushover?
"Hey, that fellow over there kills people for money. He must be a complete pussy."

Because it's foreign money from a foreign client. Your soldiers would be getting paid by some wealthy dude from abroad to go overseas in some war-torn nation and fight in some conflict that their nation isn't even a part of in the first place. They're fighting for the interests of others. In the homeland, people would be pretty angry to know that their brothers, fathers or sons are being sent to a war they have no business in, not for national interest like a normal armed intervention but for money paid by a foreign client. Money can easily sway people.

So... they must be easy to defeat... because they will risk their own soldiers' lives out of greed..? :blink:
That seems more threatening to me. Are you talking about seeming weak to other nations or to your own citizens?
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Gallia-
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Tue Mar 20, 2018 12:39 pm

The Akasha Colony wrote:
Zhouran wrote:Because it's foreign money from a foreign client. Your soldiers would be getting paid by some wealthy dude from abroad to go overseas in some war-torn nation and fight in some conflict that their nation isn't even a part of in the first place. They're fighting for the interests of others. In the homeland, people would be pretty angry to know that their brothers, fathers or sons are being sent to a war they have no business in, not for national interest like a normal armed intervention but for money paid by a foreign client. Money can easily sway people.


This is literally what ODS was.


No it wasn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimony

It was literally tugging on the heartstrings of bleeding hearts, like Bush Sr., with actual lies. Americans and the West duped into fighting a war of "liberation" between a Hitler worshiper and literal medieval slave states? The truth revealed.

The Kuwaitis and Saudis were the real villains of Desert Storm? Possibly. At least Saddam didn't bother hiding behind propaganda to UN Security Council members. He was pretty bluntly honest about what he wanted.

On March 15, 1991, shortly after Kuwait was liberated, John Martin, an ABC reporter, reported that "patients, including premature babies, did die, when many of Kuwait's nurses and doctors stopped working or fled the country"


Oops we've been invaded. Better not work and let all my patients die. OTOH the Iraqis probably weren't much better in 2003 since they immediately descended into chaos without Saddam's strong hand to guide them.

The ideal solution to Desert Storm would have been to land Marines in Saudi Arabia, use Desert Shield as a pretext for force buildup, and then topple the Saudi government by nuking major metropolitan areas with B83s, destroying the Saudi/Qatari/Yemeni/whatever armies in the field because they can't fight at all and have poor equipment anyway, and pushing towards Baghdad to oust Saddam Hussein. Once all the slave trading/owning/using states of the Gulf and Saddam are eliminated, the real work begins: establishing a UN Trust Territory over the now actually free Middle East to ensure the Western World has continual access to oil resources until it can transition to an atomic economy.

You maintain the moral high ground by destroying the real foes of freedom (i.e. "literally everyone involved in that dumpster fire besides democracy") and keep the oil flowing by conquering the oil fields themselves.

Getting paid cash money by the Saudis and Kuwaitis would have been better than what the USA actually did in ODS. Miles better. Arabs literally lied to the faces of Westerners and got away with it.

Crookfur wrote:as such anime is seen as far less geeky in France than it is in the UK/US.


This explains so much.

Also speaking of France, my favorite Eurasian stereotypes of Americans are being yee haw cowboys who shoot each other all the time instead of reasonable people who are also a bit snooty (kind of like Anglophone Frenchmen).

New Vihenia wrote:I guess we are still not in the age where EM-railgun become portable. I mean the one having real military utility instead of hobby purpse


It will never happen.
Last edited by Gallia- on Tue Mar 20, 2018 2:03 pm, edited 14 times in total.

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Zhouran
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Founded: Feb 09, 2013
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Zhouran » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:40 am

Gallia- wrote:
Zhouran wrote:>Fictional meme war


>Fictional.

Meanwhile the United States and the Western world are literally at war with Russia and have been since about 1918. :roll:

For a war that's a hundred years old, the two really haven't slit each other's throats, except for a few times.

He already has, but he's easily impressed by both words and parades so all the U.S. Army has to do to keep him loyal is give him a five minute speech on responsibility every few hours with a brass band playing on a podium. Trump is really the ultimate globalist. No loyalties and no real sense of patriotism to his motherland with a gifted tongue of presenting the opposite. A true Silicon Valley magnate. In reality he's only impressed by shiny things so he will probably go to Russia (much like Steven Seagall and Ron Paul) when he realizes America can't make hypersonic missiles or to the PRC when he realizes they make all his clothes.

But that won't be obvious until the mid-2020s and by then Trump will be out of office and writing a book about his presidency or something.

Clinton would naturally have started Operation Power Drive in 2014 by deploying V US Corps and two armored divisions to Poland on a permanent forward deployment, plan for airland battle, and initiate it in 2018 as part of a comprehensive retaliation attack on Russia's attempt to encroach on NATO borders. Because Clinton was possibly the most excellent foreign policy minder in the entire American government TBH. She understood the true threat of Russia and China, how they think, and what they're doing.

Trump is just stuck in 1995 and can never leave. He thinks America can recover its industrial position from China. He thinks Russia isn't our enemy anymore. He thinks North Korea and Iran are still the biggest threats. Clinton would have built a free trade agreement with the Western world and possibly been able to build the basis for instituting a pan-democratic autarky (something that would take decades of negotiation which is why TTIP and TPP were important), but that's impossible now, so the PRC has more or less won everything it could ever want. Soon Western Europe will collapse, America will retreat to North America, and I guess the PRC moves south like the Japanese did, but without America to stop them.

Going on some sort of offensive against Russia would lead to some sort of nuclear war, depending on how much sacrifice one side would make just for a fruitless war. Clinton isn't some master tactician diplomat, she's a corporate-backed bureaucrat, basically your typical politician but with a hawkish view on diplomacy. We shouldn't give her much credit since tbf other hawkish politicians in the US like McCain basically have the same interventionist views as Clinton. As for Trump, well he's a businessman. Plus his speaking skills are ideal for politics, basically a skilled liar like any politician. He's a globalist who pandered to a nationalist base by using the power of speech and charisma, and even now he still has loyal supporters that'll deflect all criticisms away from him. Clinton would wish she had such a loyal fanbase, and if she did have such fanbase maybe she would of won instead.

I'm ok with the path we're all going in since the world needs a bit of waking up. The 2008 Great Recession wasn't enough.
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Gallia-
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Founded: Oct 09, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Gallia- » Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:53 am

Zhouran wrote:For a war that's a hundred years old, the two really haven't slit each other's throats, except for a few times.


Uh...what the fuck lol? The Western world literally invaded Russia less than 100 years ago and was locked in an eternal death struggle with it ever since.

Oh right, you're completely ignorant of the most obvious histories. Don't worry. I'm sure KGB Lieutenant Colonel V.V. Putin and President of the Russian Federation, a name not only used by modern Russia to describe itself, but also by the Soviet era Russian Federation to describe itself, has completely forgotten Russia's extremely recent history with the Western world. Just because the Western world and its collective population has a memory that makes a goldfish look like an elephant doesn't mean everyone else does. In fact it's quite the opposite. Russia remembers Siberia. It also remembers 70 years of warfare with the West. And the invasion of Russia by Germany. And the re-armament and reunification of Germany. It connects these things are a contiguous whole, as they should be connected, because it's not willfully ignorant.

The PRC remembers the 19th century and the Opium Wars. It also remembers the invasion of China by the Japanese. And the current re-armament of the Japanese military by the Abe government. It also connects these things, but not quite as strongly as Russia. Honestly, to both Russia and the PRC, the fact that the Western World cuddled up to Japan and Germany so quickly looks a lot less like genuine change and more like Hitlerism and militant Shintoism or whatever have subverted whatever Western values existed prior to WW2. Or the Western world is a complete moral mercenary with no real values except to whoever gives it money.

The latter is truer than the former, though, and probably an inexorable part of Western civilization.

When you start realizing that Russia is a "KGB/Soviet rump state" rather than "friend", you start seeing the world in actual clear terms. But for some reason capitalists can't see past the next three months or the past five minutes. IDK why Westerners have trouble picturing the simple concept: Russia was our enemy 100 years ago. Nothing has really changed since then (they got new flags?) so they remain our enemy. And China is our enemy now because the good guys (Taiwan) got pushed off the mainland and huddle around their last few M48 Pattons and M41 Walker Bulldogs to stave off invasion.

Zhouran wrote:Going on some sort of offensive against Russia would lead to some sort of nuclear war,


Yes. That's sort of implied by "in-kind nuclear warfare" in the infobox.

What's wrong with nuclear war though? It's perfect survivable. If you think otherwise you've been successfully duped by the KGB to believe that.

Our enemies believe otherwise, because they aren't idiots, and the CIA never had a highly developed propaganda apparatus capable of appropriating things like nuclear disarmament movements in the West.

"Nuclear war = end of world" is literally the earliest active measure deployed by the KGB. It's older than "WW1 = bad" even, since it's from the 1950s. It was literally designed to use the West's political vulnerabilities (democracy and public perception are key weak links) against it to get them to reduce armaments spending. It worked in the UK, Canada, and maybe a couple other countries. Not in Germany, not in the United States, not in France, not in Australia, though. Last time I checked, Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not smouldering uninhabitable craters. For that matter, neither are Tokyo, Dresden, or Berlin, which were also attacked with nuclear levels of firepower.

Russia saw two things after the atomic bomb, very rational and clear headed things:

1) Atomic bombs are just thousand bomber raids.
2) Thousand bomber raids are perfectly survivable.

It's not hard to extend this extremely clear logic to "atomic bombs are survivable". There's nothing magical about a nuclear bomb that kills you. It has rules and if you understand those rules you win. So Russians understand the rules, they win? Maybe Westerners, along with IQ drops since the late 19th century, had began to lose the concept of "rules-based reality" so they couldn't grok this concept? Possibly. Or perhaps Westerners, in their pursuit of "independence" and distrust of "elites" and other demagogue tactics have begun to dismiss "scientists" and "career military officers" as "legitimate" because "a gravelly voiced robo-man told me a 100 megaton bomb at the bottom of the Marianas Trench would create a new continent" in a Youtube video.

I'm not sure if there is a difference, though. "Distrust of elites" isn't intrinsically low IQ, especially when it really is true like in North Korea, but it leads Ordinaries towards the conclusions of low IQs when the Elites are right.

Which is true in the case of the Western world aside from surrenderist civilizations like Canada.

Zhouran wrote:other hawkish politicians in the US like McCain basically have the same interventionist views as Clinton


Go back to Russia. If you think a war, even nuclear war, is unwinnable, then you are just a dead weight plunging Western civilization into the abyss. Anyone who would actually throw down their rifle and flee rather than stand and fight in the next war is literally an enemy agent TBH. Clinton literally reflected the views of the U.S. defense apparatus in confronting America's two major enemies: Russia and China. If you think the U.S. military is bad for being "hawkish" or "interventionist" then you are either being paid in CNY or you're regurgitating KGB/FSB active measures. Which is to say you're either actively engaged in conspiracy with foreign agents or you're simply repeating their ideas as if they have any legitimacy.

They don't. If they did, do you think Russia would believe nuclear war was unwinnable? Stop repeating KGB memes LoL.

Soviet/Russian nuclear doctrine was basically "launch on imminent attack" and "open war with massive use of tactical nuclear weapons". Russian nuclear doctrine hasn't changed an iota since the KGB has appropriated the civilian government and economy for the 2nd time. They simply didn't have the same cultural/moral obstacles preventing them from realizing the utility of nuclear weapons.Whether those obstacles are self-imposed based on bleeding heart whinging from Nagasaki and Godzilla or foist upon the West by the KGB in a deliberate assault on its perception of reality is a question of serious study, though.

The important thing to keep in mind is that nuclear war is perfectly survivable and the idea that it isn't is a great way to let your enemies walk all over you like a doormat.

Zhouran wrote:Clinton would wish she had such a loyal fanbase, and if she did have such fanbase maybe she would of won instead.


She did win. She won the popular vote, for all it matters, which shows that most Americans did agree with her or at least believed her to be speaking more sense than Trump. Trump, OTOH, won the electoral vote, which got him the office position, and doesn't really prove all that much. The same thing happened with Mitt Romney and Barack Obama. It leads me to believe that most Americans distrust Russia and believe it to be an enemy, while most populous/high EC vote states are full of KGB huffing Ordinaries who vote for the guy who wants to push the big "Reset" button on "Russia" because they watch RT unironically? Maybe they're just terrified of a woman in power who is actually good at her job, though. Perhaps it's a bit of both.

Her foreign policy was spot on about America's enemies, much like Romney's, and she honestly was the president America needed.

It's not clear if America will be able to elect Romney or Clinton in 2020 and save it from another 4 years of retreat, though. Which would mark a good 30 years of retreat from the real enemy of Western civilization.

Zhouran wrote:I'm ok with the path we're all going in since the world needs a bit of waking up. The 2008 Great Recession wasn't enough.


I thought you were anti-PRC domination of the Pacific. What happened to being OK with America? :roll:

The "waking up" part will be when the world finds itself in another major war. ATM it's the West that will lose it, though, since that war is inevitable unless both Russia and the PRC collapse overnight and become liberal democracies. Since the West seems perfectly content to position itself to be ass destroyed by both the PRC and Russia the waking up will be under a Chinese flag or something I guess. But that's what Trump wants, so that's what Trump will get?
Last edited by Gallia- on Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:14 am, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
Zhouran
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 7515
Founded: Feb 09, 2013
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Zhouran » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:13 am

Gallia- wrote:
Zhouran wrote:For a war that's a hundred years old, the two really haven't slit each other's throats, except for a few times.


Uh...what the fuck lol? The Western world literally invaded Russia less than 100 years ago and was locked in an eternal death struggle with it ever since.

Oh right, you're completely ignorant of the most obvious histories. Don't worry. I'm sure KGB Lieutenant Colonel V.V. Putin and President of the Russian Federation, a name not only used by modern Russia to describe itself, but also by the Soviet era Russian Federation to describe itself, has completely forgotten Russia's extremely recent history with the Western world. Just because the Western world and its collective population has a memory that makes a goldfish look like an elephant doesn't mean everyone else does. In fact it's quite the opposite. Russia remembers Siberia. It also remembers 70 years of warfare with the West. And the invasion of Russia by Germany. And the re-armament and reunification of Germany. It connects these things are a contiguous whole, as they should be connected, because it's not willfully ignorant.

The PRC remembers the 19th century and the Opium Wars. It also remembers the invasion of China by the Japanese. And the current re-armament of the Japanese military by the Abe government. It also connects these things, but not quite as strongly as Russia. Honestly, to both Russia and the PRC, the fact that the Western World cuddled up to Japan and Germany so quickly looks a lot less like genuine change and more like Hitlerism and militant Shintoism or whatever have subverted whatever Western values existed prior to WW2. Or the Western world is a complete moral mercenary with no real values except to whoever gives it money.

The latter is truer than the former, though, and probably an inexorable part of Western civilization.

When you start realizing that Russia is a "KGB/Soviet rump state" rather than "friend", you start seeing the world in actual clear terms. But for some reason capitalists can't see past the next three months or the past five minutes. IDK why Westerners have trouble picturing the simple concept: Russia was our enemy 100 years ago. Nothing has really changed since then (they got new flags?) so they remain our enemy. And China is our enemy now because the good guys (Taiwan) got pushed off the mainland and huddle around their last few M48 Pattons and M41 Walker Bulldogs to stave off invasion.

There is no such things as "friends" or "good guys" in the real world. Humans are tribalistic, people only use those silly buzzwords so that their proxies could feel better about themselves and have a sense of worthiness.


I thought you were anti-PRC domination of the Pacific. What happened to being OK with America? :roll:

>He thinks being anti-PRC is pro-US

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