The Transhuman Union wrote:He could have won if he listened to his generals, but no, he thought he was Napoleon (II).
Only in the universe of Downfall and the self-serving post-war memoirs of German generals desperate to preserve their reputations.
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by Shikihara » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:09 am
The Transhuman Union wrote:He could have won if he listened to his generals, but no, he thought he was Napoleon (II).
Hegel wrote:“Spirit certainly makes war upon itself - consumes its own existence; but in this very destruction it works up that existence into a new form, and each successive phase becomes in its turn a material, working on which it exalts itself to a new grade..”
by Len Hyet » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:10 am
by Shikihara » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:16 am
Hegel wrote:“Spirit certainly makes war upon itself - consumes its own existence; but in this very destruction it works up that existence into a new form, and each successive phase becomes in its turn a material, working on which it exalts itself to a new grade..”
by Chestaan » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:51 am
Constantinopolis wrote:Kennlind wrote:If they never invaded the USSR, yes.Guelder wrote:Yes they could have won, but they decided to invade the USSRChestaan wrote:Maybe if they didn't attack Russia
Bear in mind that attacking and conquering Russia was an integral and essential part of Nazi ideology. They believed that Germany needed Lebensraum in the east, and that the greatest enemy of the Aryan master race was the Global Jewish-Communist Conspiracy headquartered in Moscow.
The only way the Nazis could have refrained from invading the Soviet Union was by not being Nazis.
And this is the great dilemma of the German war effort: Nazi ideology was the reason they started the war in the first place, but it was also the same Nazi ideology that made it impossible for them to win the war, by setting insanely unrealistic goals.
by The Transhuman Union » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:56 am
What the Nazis perhaps could have done would be to deal with Britain and THEN attack the USSR. Now again this obviously wouldn't guarantee success but avoiding a two-front war would be a big start. Another thing they could have done was either attack Russia earlier, which they had planned but this was delayed due to having to help the Italians in Greece or wait another year to attack. They could also have went through Turkey and attacked the USSR from two sides, Poland on one and the Caucuses on the other.
by The Conez Imperium » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:07 pm
by Genivaria » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:12 pm
Constantinopolis wrote:Kennlind wrote:If they never invaded the USSR, yes.Guelder wrote:Yes they could have won, but they decided to invade the USSRChestaan wrote:Maybe if they didn't attack Russia
Bear in mind that attacking and conquering Russia was an integral and essential part of Nazi ideology. They believed that Germany needed Lebensraum in the east, and that the greatest enemy of the Aryan master race was the Global Jewish-Communist Conspiracy headquartered in Moscow.
The only way the Nazis could have refrained from invading the Soviet Union was by not being Nazis.
And this is the great dilemma of the German war effort: Nazi ideology was the reason they started the war in the first place, but it was also the same Nazi ideology that made it impossible for them to win the war, by setting insanely unrealistic goals.
by Community Values » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:37 pm
by Liriena » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:55 pm
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by Genivaria » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:01 pm
Liriena wrote:No, they couldn't have. It was them and a small handful of allies with varying degrees of competence against the collective strength of some of the most powerful nations on Earth. The Axis had very limited resources and manpower compared to their foes.
by Liriena » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:04 pm
Genivaria wrote:Liriena wrote:No, they couldn't have. It was them and a small handful of allies with varying degrees of competence against the collective strength of some of the most powerful nations on Earth. The Axis had very limited resources and manpower compared to their foes.
If they refined their rhetoric and goals to be almost purely anti-bolshevik they'd have much better luck.
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by Chestaan » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:06 pm
The Transhuman Union wrote:What the Nazis perhaps could have done would be to deal with Britain and THEN attack the USSR. Now again this obviously wouldn't guarantee success but avoiding a two-front war would be a big start. Another thing they could have done was either attack Russia earlier, which they had planned but this was delayed due to having to help the Italians in Greece or wait another year to attack. They could also have went through Turkey and attacked the USSR from two sides, Poland on one and the Caucuses on the other.
You realise attacking through the Caucasus and Anatolia means attacking through mountains and hills, right?
They wouldn't be able to utilize their blitzkrieg advantage. In fact, this is one of the main reasons why the Germans lost at Stalingrad (because it was urban and didn't allow panzer attacks).
Also, Turks wouldn't be happy with their land once again being occupied.
I don't know what you mean by "attack Russia earlier", you mean by attackin them when? In 1940? And how would the Germans deal with the British?
by Greed and Death » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:50 pm
by Kazakstotzka » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:12 pm
by Sanctissima » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:54 pm
by Kubra » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:35 pm
This in particular. It's often forgot that the germans of ww1 straight up rolled Russia, who before the reds sign brest-litovsk were moving on petrograd virtually unopposed, and had spent the past years campaign in all weather. The germans then didn't have to tie up a bunch of resources and manpower on population purging and partisan defense. Literally the worst approach one can have to a russian front.Sanctissima wrote:2) Caring more about killing Jews, Slavs and other "Untermensch" than prosecuting the war effort. My god did the Nazis waste a lot of resources with death camps and sadistic nonsense. Logistically they were fucking idiots.
by Proctopeo » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:07 pm
by Outer Sparta » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:13 pm
by Herador » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:17 pm
Outer Sparta wrote:If they didn't invade Russia and Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, then they would have a better shot.
by Genivaria » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:34 pm
Herador wrote:Outer Sparta wrote:If they didn't invade Russia and Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, then they would have a better shot.
Japan would have forced the US to act at some point just because of their overall goals, it was just a matter of when.
As for Germany? They would have had to do so many things differently that it may as well have just been a different country and conflict altogether.
- Don't break the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.
- Failing that, don't invade Russia with a plan so bad a group of toddlers could have done better
- Don't war crime your way through Eastern Europe and create a whole partisan situation that takes time and effort to deal with when there could have been a huge pool of volunteers to recruit from
- Listen to Rommel
- Listen to any of the General Staff at any point ever
- Actually don't listen to Herman Meyer
- Just don't bother with the SS
- If the SS is absolutely necessary, don't put Himmler in charge and don't let them delude themselves with ideas of Occultism and Knighthood
- Don't invent tanks in the most unnecessarily dumb way possible
- Don't get fooled into thinking an attack is coming through Scandinavia and keep it defended for so long
- Don't lose Africa and all the oil
- Don't fuck up the Battle of Britain in the dumbest way possible
- Don't let your plans to invade the US fall into US hands, like Jesus fucking christ this is basic shit come on
- Don't give Britain and it's allies four fucking years to plan and execute an invasion while doing basically nothing at all
- Don't have a leader so far up their own ass that their staff is afraid of waking them up when the country is being invaded by a massive invasion force
- Don't let idiot allies pick a fight with a country that has a higher GDP than you and all your allies combined
- If the idiots do pick a fight with said country, stay the hell out of it
- Maybe try to talk that ally into not committing a shitzillion war crimes too, while we're on the subject
- Don't go into Russia and then listen to Fred when he says "Let's split up, gang!"
- Don't get stuck in a city fight on a river when you aren't prepared for a long fight with an enemy you know won't give up
- If you have to retreat from said city fight and there is an obvious solution your man on the ground believes he can make work, don't go with the stupidly complicated plan an idiot who's failed multiple times pitches you
- I mean, just don't let Hitler lead the country, honestly
- Don't be Nazi Germany
- Don't start a war
by Herador » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:40 pm
Genivaria wrote:This. You see this right here?
You just got Awesome Quoted.
by Washington Resistance Army » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:48 pm
Outer Sparta wrote:If they didn't invade Russia and Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, then they would have a better shot.
by Kubra » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:18 pm
Even if Stalin wasn't fixing on having a go at Germany, Germany was fixing to go to war with it anyways, and there was really no better time. Like, shit, given the soviets military and political situation, Hitler had been handed eastern europe on a silver platter. And he fucked it up.
by Herador » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:30 pm
Kubra wrote:Even if Stalin wasn't fixing on having a go at Germany, Germany was fixing to go to war with it anyways, and there was really no better time. Like, shit, given the soviets military and political situation, Hitler had been handed eastern europe on a silver platter. And he fucked it up.Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Invading Russia was a very good choice, the Soviets were going to attack eventually so it's better to start the fight on your terms.
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