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Could the Nazis have Won ?!?

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Shikihara
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Postby Shikihara » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:09 am

The Transhuman Union wrote:He could have won if he listened to his generals, but no, he thought he was Napoleon (II).


Only in the universe of Downfall and the self-serving post-war memoirs of German generals desperate to preserve their reputations.
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Len Hyet
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Postby Len Hyet » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:10 am

The Transhuman Union wrote:
Xmara wrote:
Didn’t he even make the same mistake Napoleon made and attacked Russia in the winter?


He attacked Russia on June 22 1941.
If I am correct, that's not winter in the Northern Hemisphere.

True, but if you'll allow a History nerd to drop some learnin' on the thread:

1. Hitler in fact chose a fairly good time to invade Russia. It was as early as conceivably possible for the roads to be passable.

2. Where the Nazis fucked up was in their assumption of a quick victory. In their defense during the Winter War with Finland the numerically and logistically inferior Finns managed to inflict casualties completely at odds with their strength, inflicting somewhere around 5 casualties for every one sustained despite being outnumbered somewhere around 3 to 1. The numerically inferior but logistically, tactically, and technologically superior Wehrmacht should have been able to steamroll the Russians and gain a quick victory.

3. Unfortunately for the Nazis, the Soviets instead rallied around "the motherland" and despite numerous early losses dug in at strategic points that you've all heard of, launched numerous spoiling attacks that slowed the Nazi advance to the point where they could wait until winter. The Nazi logistics train unraveled rapidly, leaving men without the necessary supplies to fight any war, much less a war in winter against a numerically superior foe fighting on their home territory.

So basically like 90% of historical fuck-ups it can be attributed to a failure of logistics.

Now if you all will excuse me there's a 90A0 friend of mine who needs an ego puncturing.
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Shikihara
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Postby Shikihara » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:16 am

Xmara wrote:
The Empire of Pretantia wrote:He thought he was better than Napoleon.


Didn’t he even make the same mistake Napoleon made and attacked Russia in the winter?


Neither of them invaded Russia in the winter, both invaded in June. Len explained the rest pretty good, but this myth about Napoleon is a historical pet peeve of mine.
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Chestaan
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Postby Chestaan » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:51 am

Constantinopolis wrote:
Kennlind wrote:If they never invaded the USSR, yes.

Guelder wrote:Yes they could have won, but they decided to invade the USSR

Chestaan wrote:Maybe if they didn't attack Russia

Bear in mind that attacking and conquering Russia was an integral and essential part of Nazi ideology. They believed that Germany needed Lebensraum in the east, and that the greatest enemy of the Aryan master race was the Global Jewish-Communist Conspiracy headquartered in Moscow.

The only way the Nazis could have refrained from invading the Soviet Union was by not being Nazis.

And this is the great dilemma of the German war effort: Nazi ideology was the reason they started the war in the first place, but it was also the same Nazi ideology that made it impossible for them to win the war, by setting insanely unrealistic goals.


What the Nazis perhaps could have done would be to deal with Britain and THEN attack the USSR. Now again this obviously wouldn't guarantee success but avoiding a two-front war would be a big start. Another thing they could have done was either attack Russia earlier, which they had planned but this was delayed due to having to help the Italians in Greece or wait another year to attack. They could also have went through Turkey and attacked the USSR from two sides, Poland on one and the Caucuses on the other.
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The Transhuman Union
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Postby The Transhuman Union » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:56 am

What the Nazis perhaps could have done would be to deal with Britain and THEN attack the USSR. Now again this obviously wouldn't guarantee success but avoiding a two-front war would be a big start. Another thing they could have done was either attack Russia earlier, which they had planned but this was delayed due to having to help the Italians in Greece or wait another year to attack. They could also have went through Turkey and attacked the USSR from two sides, Poland on one and the Caucuses on the other.


You realise attacking through the Caucasus and Anatolia means attacking through mountains and hills, right?
They wouldn't be able to utilize their blitzkrieg advantage. In fact, this is one of the main reasons why the Germans lost at Stalingrad (because it was urban and didn't allow panzer attacks).
Also, Turks wouldn't be happy with their land once again being occupied.

I don't know what you mean by "attack Russia earlier", you mean by attackin them when? In 1940? And how would the Germans deal with the British?
Last edited by The Transhuman Union on Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby The Conez Imperium » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:07 pm

Shikihara wrote:
The Transhuman Union wrote:He could have won if he listened to his generals, but no, he thought he was Napoleon (II).


Only in the universe of Downfall and the self-serving post-war memoirs of German generals desperate to preserve their reputations.


If Hitler had listened to his generals, Hitler probably wouldn't have had the authority to invade Poland.
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:12 pm

Constantinopolis wrote:
Kennlind wrote:If they never invaded the USSR, yes.

Guelder wrote:Yes they could have won, but they decided to invade the USSR

Chestaan wrote:Maybe if they didn't attack Russia

Bear in mind that attacking and conquering Russia was an integral and essential part of Nazi ideology. They believed that Germany needed Lebensraum in the east, and that the greatest enemy of the Aryan master race was the Global Jewish-Communist Conspiracy headquartered in Moscow.

The only way the Nazis could have refrained from invading the Soviet Union was by not being Nazis.

And this is the great dilemma of the German war effort: Nazi ideology was the reason they started the war in the first place, but it was also the same Nazi ideology that made it impossible for them to win the war, by setting insanely unrealistic goals.

Turning 95% of all Russian civilians against the Nazis from atrocity after atrocity wasn't a very good long-term strategy no.
But then it seems to be part of extremist ideology to underestimate your enemies resolve.
Last edited by Genivaria on Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Community Values » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:37 pm

read this as "should the Nazis have won?"
When a country declares war on the two premiere super powers within a few months of each other, there's no 'could'
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Postby Liriena » Sun Nov 26, 2017 2:55 pm

No, they couldn't have. It was them and a small handful of allies with varying degrees of competence against the collective strength of some of the most powerful nations on Earth. The Axis had very limited resources and manpower compared to their foes.
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:01 pm

Liriena wrote:No, they couldn't have. It was them and a small handful of allies with varying degrees of competence against the collective strength of some of the most powerful nations on Earth. The Axis had very limited resources and manpower compared to their foes.

If they refined their rhetoric and goals to be almost purely anti-bolshevik they'd have much better luck.
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Postby Liriena » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:04 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Liriena wrote:No, they couldn't have. It was them and a small handful of allies with varying degrees of competence against the collective strength of some of the most powerful nations on Earth. The Axis had very limited resources and manpower compared to their foes.

If they refined their rhetoric and goals to be almost purely anti-bolshevik they'd have much better luck.

Probably, but whether Hitler and his accomplices would have had the presence of mind to do so...
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Postby Chestaan » Sun Nov 26, 2017 3:06 pm

The Transhuman Union wrote:
What the Nazis perhaps could have done would be to deal with Britain and THEN attack the USSR. Now again this obviously wouldn't guarantee success but avoiding a two-front war would be a big start. Another thing they could have done was either attack Russia earlier, which they had planned but this was delayed due to having to help the Italians in Greece or wait another year to attack. They could also have went through Turkey and attacked the USSR from two sides, Poland on one and the Caucuses on the other.


You realise attacking through the Caucasus and Anatolia means attacking through mountains and hills, right?
They wouldn't be able to utilize their blitzkrieg advantage. In fact, this is one of the main reasons why the Germans lost at Stalingrad (because it was urban and didn't allow panzer attacks).
Also, Turks wouldn't be happy with their land once again being occupied.

I don't know what you mean by "attack Russia earlier", you mean by attackin them when? In 1940? And how would the Germans deal with the British?


Its true that it wouldn't have been easy, but it would have offered them another avenue for attack. And true, the Turks wouldn't be happy, but neither were the Polish, Dutch, Belgians or French but that doesn't mean that attacking them left the Germans at a disadvantage.

I mean as a separate plan, if they absolutely had to attack Russia rather than focusing on Britain and the West they could have launched an attack at the time when they had originally planned.
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Postby Greed and Death » Sun Nov 26, 2017 4:50 pm

To win the Nazis would have needed to do 3 things.

1st Not invade Russia, rule one on page one of the book of war is do not invade Russia. Seriously Just don't Russians burn their fields, retreat, and let general winter attack.

2nd Develop a long range bomber. The inability to utilize strategic bombing on the UK's means of production was crippling once the war became a long term drag down knock out fight.

3rd Have a vastly larger aircraft Carrier fleet. This would be needed if you were going to subdue British supply lines, and push home an amphibious assault.
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Kazakstotzka
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Postby Kazakstotzka » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:12 pm

If Hitler didn't backstab Stalin then sure, they could've won.

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Postby Sanctissima » Sun Nov 26, 2017 6:54 pm

Really, the only way I'd foresee the Nazis somehow pulling off a total victory against all odds is twofold:

1) If they didn't divert massive army columns towards ill-fated operations against Leningrad and Stalingrad, rather concentrating on a full-on march towards Moscow after taking the Baltics and Ukraine. Their only real hope against the USSR was to strike at their heart.

Granted, a better option might have been not to invade the USSR at all, but given the two country's diametrically opposed ideological views, and the Soviet Union's current military weakness after Stalin's purges and the operational failure of the Red Army in the Winter War, I'm inclined to say that Hitler was correct in beginning an inevitable war when the odds were in his favour, rather than later. His failings in this regard were moreso in the strategic planning of the later phases of the war, rather than prosecuting the war itself.

2) Caring more about killing Jews, Slavs and other "Untermensch" than prosecuting the war effort. My god did the Nazis waste a lot of resources with death camps and sadistic nonsense. Logistically they were fucking idiots.

Other honourable mentions are:

- wasting precious time and resources with V2 rockets and other stupid projects
- wasting resources on battleships when they should have just invested in more subs
- declaring war on America (should have just left Japan to its inevitable fate after Pearl Harbour)
- the Blitz
- taking on Italy as an ally
- trusting Goering and the Luftwaffe to handle Dunkirk more or less single-handedly
- not investing in more paratroopers, which could have assisted immensely in a potential aerial invasion of the UK, coupled with diversionary naval attacks
- several other things I'm probably forgetting

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Postby Kubra » Sun Nov 26, 2017 7:35 pm

Sanctissima wrote:2) Caring more about killing Jews, Slavs and other "Untermensch" than prosecuting the war effort. My god did the Nazis waste a lot of resources with death camps and sadistic nonsense. Logistically they were fucking idiots.
This in particular. It's often forgot that the germans of ww1 straight up rolled Russia, who before the reds sign brest-litovsk were moving on petrograd virtually unopposed, and had spent the past years campaign in all weather. The germans then didn't have to tie up a bunch of resources and manpower on population purging and partisan defense. Literally the worst approach one can have to a russian front.
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Postby Proctopeo » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:07 pm

Maybe. Assuming the world stage was the exact same, if Germany went to war with either the Allies or the Soviets, and didn't bother with the Americans, a victory could have happened.
Especially if they decided to land in Edinburgh; the Royal Navy never protects that coast.
If they did much less genocide as well, they would've done better.
Now, of course, once the Germans dealt with one enemy, the United States would likely have decided to intervene, helping either the Allies or the Soviets, depending on who's left. That's a war I don't see them winning, although it certainly would last a while.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Nov 26, 2017 8:13 pm

If they didn't invade Russia and Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, then they would have a better shot.
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Postby Herador » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:17 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:If they didn't invade Russia and Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, then they would have a better shot.

Japan would have forced the US to act at some point just because of their overall goals, it was just a matter of when.

As for Germany? They would have had to do so many things differently that it may as well have just been a different country and conflict altogether.
  • Don't break the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.
  • Failing that, don't invade Russia with a plan so bad a group of toddlers could have done better
  • Don't war crime your way through Eastern Europe and create a whole partisan situation that takes time and effort to deal with when there could have been a huge pool of volunteers to recruit from
  • Listen to Rommel
  • Listen to any of the General Staff at any point ever
  • Actually don't listen to Herman Meyer
  • Just don't bother with the SS
  • If the SS is absolutely necessary, don't put Himmler in charge and don't let them delude themselves with ideas of Occultism and Knighthood
  • Don't invent tanks in the most unnecessarily dumb way possible
  • Don't get fooled into thinking an attack is coming through Scandinavia and keep it defended for so long
  • Don't lose Africa and all the oil
  • Don't fuck up the Battle of Britain in the dumbest way possible
  • Don't let your plans to invade the US fall into US hands, like Jesus fucking christ this is basic shit come on
  • Don't give Britain and it's allies four fucking years to plan and execute an invasion while doing basically nothing at all
  • Don't have a leader so far up their own ass that their staff is afraid of waking them up when the country is being invaded by a massive invasion force
  • Don't let idiot allies pick a fight with a country that has a higher GDP than you and all your allies combined
  • If the idiots do pick a fight with said country, stay the hell out of it
  • Maybe try to talk that ally into not committing a shitzillion war crimes too, while we're on the subject
  • Don't go into Russia and then listen to Fred when he says "Let's split up, gang!"
  • Don't get stuck in a city fight on a river when you aren't prepared for a long fight with an enemy you know won't give up
  • If you have to retreat from said city fight and there is an obvious solution your man on the ground believes he can make work, don't go with the stupidly complicated plan an idiot who's failed multiple times pitches you
  • I mean, just don't let Hitler lead the country, honestly
  • Don't be Nazi Germany
  • Don't start a war
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:34 pm

Herador wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:If they didn't invade Russia and Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, then they would have a better shot.

Japan would have forced the US to act at some point just because of their overall goals, it was just a matter of when.

As for Germany? They would have had to do so many things differently that it may as well have just been a different country and conflict altogether.
  • Don't break the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.
  • Failing that, don't invade Russia with a plan so bad a group of toddlers could have done better
  • Don't war crime your way through Eastern Europe and create a whole partisan situation that takes time and effort to deal with when there could have been a huge pool of volunteers to recruit from
  • Listen to Rommel
  • Listen to any of the General Staff at any point ever
  • Actually don't listen to Herman Meyer
  • Just don't bother with the SS
  • If the SS is absolutely necessary, don't put Himmler in charge and don't let them delude themselves with ideas of Occultism and Knighthood
  • Don't invent tanks in the most unnecessarily dumb way possible
  • Don't get fooled into thinking an attack is coming through Scandinavia and keep it defended for so long
  • Don't lose Africa and all the oil
  • Don't fuck up the Battle of Britain in the dumbest way possible
  • Don't let your plans to invade the US fall into US hands, like Jesus fucking christ this is basic shit come on
  • Don't give Britain and it's allies four fucking years to plan and execute an invasion while doing basically nothing at all
  • Don't have a leader so far up their own ass that their staff is afraid of waking them up when the country is being invaded by a massive invasion force
  • Don't let idiot allies pick a fight with a country that has a higher GDP than you and all your allies combined
  • If the idiots do pick a fight with said country, stay the hell out of it
  • Maybe try to talk that ally into not committing a shitzillion war crimes too, while we're on the subject
  • Don't go into Russia and then listen to Fred when he says "Let's split up, gang!"
  • Don't get stuck in a city fight on a river when you aren't prepared for a long fight with an enemy you know won't give up
  • If you have to retreat from said city fight and there is an obvious solution your man on the ground believes he can make work, don't go with the stupidly complicated plan an idiot who's failed multiple times pitches you
  • I mean, just don't let Hitler lead the country, honestly
  • Don't be Nazi Germany
  • Don't start a war

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Herador
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Postby Herador » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:40 pm

Genivaria wrote:This. You see this right here?
You just got Awesome Quoted.

Really, thanks man, glad you liked it
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Postby Washington Resistance Army » Sun Nov 26, 2017 10:48 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:If they didn't invade Russia and Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, then they would have a better shot.


Invading Russia was a very good choice, the Soviets were going to attack eventually so it's better to start the fight on your terms.
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Postby Kubra » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:18 pm

Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:If they didn't invade Russia and Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, then they would have a better shot.


Invading Russia was a very good choice, the Soviets were going to attack eventually so it's better to start the fight on your terms.
Even if Stalin wasn't fixing on having a go at Germany, Germany was fixing to go to war with it anyways, and there was really no better time. Like, shit, given the soviets military and political situation, Hitler had been handed eastern europe on a silver platter. And he fucked it up.
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Herador
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Postby Herador » Sun Nov 26, 2017 11:30 pm

Kubra wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Invading Russia was a very good choice, the Soviets were going to attack eventually so it's better to start the fight on your terms.
Even if Stalin wasn't fixing on having a go at Germany, Germany was fixing to go to war with it anyways, and there was really no better time. Like, shit, given the soviets military and political situation, Hitler had been handed eastern europe on a silver platter. And he fucked it up.

A few months earlier and if he'd have just let the people he hired to do a job do their job and he would have been the proud owner of a whole shit load of real estate.

Maybe.

You're right though.
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Founded:

Postby Donut section » Mon Nov 27, 2017 12:33 am

No. Socialism always implodes.

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