[Abortion][REVISED POLL] If you had the power...

[Martian Commonwealths]

The Martian Empire lays the issue out like this:

1. It's the child's right to be born.

2. However there are uncontrollable cases where the mother's right to abort come first, such as rape, because the baby could grow up to become a rapist or in general a terrible person because of the father. Mother's health is the second case in which abortion should be allowed, assuming of course that it's an either or scenario, our goal will be to save both of them to the best of our abilities. Incest is the last and final case in which abortion should be a right due to birth defects in the child that could occur.

3. For financially struggling women who want their child but can't pay for it, the federal government will set aside $10-$100 a month in the mother's savings account. If more money is required she can sign up for a maternity loan of $250-$500 if she meets the criteria.

4. If she wants to have the child but doesn't want to keep it we have an online program that would allow a family wanting to adopt to find the child.

5. We are experimenting with our healthcare system currently. We have several areas like Family Spending where the government invests in the well being of growing families, or Senior Aid, where another investment is made to help the elderly. It's just a group of investments that hopefully will cover all martians who need immediate service. Of course this means we'd have to have a flat tax on top of other taxes of 2% of an individual martians income to put money in our federal savings account

[Keshiland]

That is what he said and that is what I'm referencing. This is what you replied to with your strawman statement of this statement above somehow equals rape culture. Which is ridiculous and completely unrelated.

K so clearly you don't know what a strawman is.

a strawman is taking ones argument and using the most extreme example you can find or an outlier that's what you did you took sex and made it rape.

[Genivaria]

The Martian Empire lays the issue out like this:

1. It's the child's right to be born.

2. However there are uncontrollable cases where the mother's right to abort come first, such as rape, because the baby could grow up to become a rapist or in general a terrible person because of the father. Mother's health is the second case in which abortion should be allowed, assuming of course that it's an either or scenario, our goal will be to save both of them to the best of our abilities. Incest is the last and final case in which abortion should be a right due to birth defects in the child that could occur.

3. For financially struggling women who want their child but can't pay for it, the federal government will set aside $10-$100 a month in the mother's savings account. If more money is required she can sign up for a maternity loan of $250-$500 if she meets the criteria.

4. If she wants to have the child but doesn't want to keep it we have an online program that would allow a family wanting to adopt to find the child.

5. We are experimenting with our healthcare system currently. We have several areas like Family Spending where the government invests in the well being of growing families, or Senior Aid, where another investment is made to help the elderly. It's just a group of investments that hopefully will cover all martians who need immediate service. Of course this means we'd have to have a flat tax on top of other taxes of 2% of an individual martians income to put money in our federal savings account

The Martian Empire lays the issue out like this:

Stop right there, General is IRL not in-game.

[New haven america]

The Martian Empire lays the issue out like this:

General is OOC.

[Genivaria]

K so clearly you don't know what a strawman is.

a strawman is taking ones argument and using the most extreme example you can find or an outlier that's what you did you took sex and made it rape.

No.
A strawman is misrepresenting someone's argument.
What I did was make an analogy using your logic.

[New haven america]

That is what he said and that is what I'm referencing. This is what you replied to with your strawman statement of this statement above somehow equals rape culture. Which is ridiculous and completely unrelated.

K so clearly you don't know what a strawman is.

A lot don't, it's just their go-to thing because they don't know about other fallacies.

[Vassenor]

I still don't understand why women should not have the right to control their own bodies.

[The Grande Republic 0f Arcadia]

The Martian Empire lays the issue out like this:

1. It's the child's right to be born.

2. However there are uncontrollable cases where the mother's right to abort come first, such as rape, because the baby could grow up to become a rapist or in general a terrible person because of the father. Mother's health is the second case in which abortion should be allowed, assuming of course that it's an either or scenario, our goal will be to save both of them to the best of our abilities. Incest is the last and final case in which abortion should be a right due to birth defects in the child that could occur.

-snip-

I would like to add two points on two, on the fact that you should also allow abortions if they are under 18 or the contraceptives failed aswell, and while I agree with your point , it wouldnt be able to be enforced, and would push people to have illegal abortions outside of a KFC type of situation where the woman could very well die from a botched abortion. So thats why choice is the best option right now.

[New haven america]

I still don't understand why women should not have the right to control their own bodies.

Because they obviously don't know what's best for them. *nod*

[Omakhandia]

If you anti-abortion wingnuts really thought babies were the same as fetuses, you'd be blowing yourselves up at the clinics all the time. Deep down, you know they're not people, so you relegate much of your activism to online message boards.

[Salus Maior]

Logic: If you don't want babies, best way to not have them is to not have sex = Don't dress like a slut if you don't want to get raped.

I don't see the connection outside of making a more convenient argument for yourself in a disingenuous way. He didn't make any remarks on women, or rape culture at all, he made the actually true statement for both men and women that sex can lead to pregnancy. Dress or rape culture is irrelevant to that statement.

Here's the explanation: "Don't do X if you don't want Y" is a very toxic and destructive line of thinking.

Don't have sex if you don't want kids, don't dress like a slut if you don't want to get raped, just make money if you want to stop being poor, don't be abused if you don't want to be abused, etc... all pretty much mean the same thing, it's only your fault if something you don't want happens, you only have yourself to blame, deal with the consequences. It dehumanizes others and gives the people who support this view a warped vision of life.

You can't choose not to be poor, you can't choose to not be raped when it happens, you can't choose not to be abused if you're stuck in that situation. You can choose to not have consensual sex. It's not comparable to the above situations. People do it literally all the time.

As it is in the description, consensual sex implies consent and choice to do the act and therefore an acceptance of certain risks and possible consequences. Does this mean that people who choose to make a mistake should be abused and shamed? No, that's not helpful. And besides we're all guilty of making mistakes and foolish decisions. That doesn't make it ok to destroy a life.

[Katganistan]

The Martian Empire lays the issue out like this:

1. It's the child's right to be born.

2. However there are uncontrollable cases where the mother's right to abort come first, such as rape, because the baby could grow up to become a rapist or in general a terrible person because of the father. Mother's health is the second case in which abortion should be allowed, assuming of course that it's an either or scenario, our goal will be to save both of them to the best of our abilities. Incest is the last and final case in which abortion should be a right due to birth defects in the child that could occur.

3. For financially struggling women who want their child but can't pay for it, the federal government will set aside $10-$100 a month in the mother's savings account. If more money is required she can sign up for a maternity loan of $250-$500 if she meets the criteria.

4. If she wants to have the child but doesn't want to keep it we have an online program that would allow a family wanting to adopt to find the child.

5. We are experimenting with our healthcare system currently. We have several areas like Family Spending where the government invests in the well being of growing families, or Senior Aid, where another investment is made to help the elderly. It's just a group of investments that hopefully will cover all martians who need immediate service. Of course this means we'd have to have a flat tax on top of other taxes of 2% of an individual martians income to put money in our federal savings account

This is not a roleplaying thread, nor a roleplaying forum. This is an 'in real life' board.

[Salus Maior]

If you anti-abortion wingnuts really thought babies were the same as fetuses, you'd be blowing yourselves up at the clinics all the time. Deep down, you know they're not people, so you relegate much of your activism to online message boards.

Or maybe some people realize that blowing people up isn't the most effective way to deal with problems. Or the most moral.

[Verenigde Staten van Amerika]

I don't understand why the hell there is only one abortion clinic in the whole damn state. You conservatives should stop trying to tell people what to do with their non-living zygotes.

[Salus Maior]

I still don't understand why women should not have the right to control their own bodies.

Because they obviously don't know what's best for them. *nod*

Ironically, I've heard Pro-Choice advocates use that phrase in reference to pro-life women many, many times.

Funnily little world, innit?

[New haven america]

Here's the explanation: "Don't do X if you don't want Y" is a very toxic and destructive line of thinking.

Don't have sex if you don't want kids, don't dress like a slut if you don't want to get raped, just make money if you want to stop being poor, don't be abused if you don't want to be abused, etc... all pretty much mean the same thing, it's only your fault if something you don't want happens, you only have yourself to blame, deal with the consequences. It dehumanizes others and gives the people who support this view a warped vision of life.

1.You can't choose not to be poor, 2. you can't choose to not be raped when it happens, 3.you can't choose not to be abused if you're stuck in that situation. 4.You can choose to not have consensual sex. It's not comparable to the above situations. People do it literally all the time.

5. As it is in the description, consensual sex implies consent and choice to do the act and therefore an acceptance of certain risks and possible consequences. 6. Does this mean that people who choose to make a mistake should be abused and shamed? No, that's not helpful. And besides we're all guilty of making mistakes and foolish decisions. 7.That doesn't make it ok to destroy a life.

1. Yes you can, you can just choose not to work
2. Sure you can, by not dressing like a slut
3. Sure you can, don't be around abusive people
4. And you shouldn't be punished with something you don't want if you do
5. That is true
6. Oh the irony in this
7. It's not a life though, it's basically a parasite or a virus (That's basically how the mother's body tends to view fetuses, especially if they have a different blood type than the mother) with no conscience or sense of awareness. You see, you yourself are using reproduction as a punishment for people doing something you don't agree with.

[Keshiland]

I would consede defeat on the matter if all clinics needed to play on loop babies crying while people ask wait and perform abortions. Hey maybe people should set up huge stereos outside clinics of crying babies and babies saying mommy.

[Katganistan]

I still don't understand why women should not have the right to control their own bodies.

Because men said so, and because they're too stupid/irresponsible/evil to make their own decisions, and because their only purpose is to have children and serve men.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

Here's the explanation: "Don't do X if you don't want Y" is a very toxic and destructive line of thinking.

Don't have sex if you don't want kids, don't dress like a slut if you don't want to get raped, just make money if you want to stop being poor, don't be abused if you don't want to be abused, etc... all pretty much mean the same thing, it's only your fault if something you don't want happens, you only have yourself to blame, deal with the consequences. It dehumanizes others and gives the people who support this view a warped vision of life.

You can't choose not to be poor, you can't choose to not be raped when it happens, you can't choose not to be abused if you're stuck in that situation. You can choose to not have consensual sex. It's not comparable to the above situations. People do it literally all the time.

As it is in the description, consensual sex implies consent and choice to do the act and therefore an acceptance of certain risks and possible consequences. Does this mean that people who choose to make a mistake should be abused and shamed? No, that's not helpful. And besides we're all guilty of making mistakes and foolish decisions. That doesn't make it ok to destroy a life.

Careful. Carry on down that line, and you'll grant de facto privileges to gays, and I'm sure you wouldn't that.

[Omakhandia]

If you anti-abortion wingnuts really thought babies were the same as fetuses, you'd be blowing yourselves up at the clinics all the time. Deep down, you know they're not people, so you relegate much of your activism to online message boards.

Or maybe some people realize that blowing people up isn't the most effective way to deal with problems. Or the most moral.

If the government was indeed running baby-killing facilities, as anti-abortion activists seem to think, that is far past the line of authoritarian evil. Violence would certainly be called for, assuming they were actually killing babies. Thankfully, they're not.

[Martian Commonwealths]

The Martian Empire lays the issue out like this:

1. It's the child's right to be born.

2. However there are uncontrollable cases where the mother's right to abort come first, such as rape, because the baby could grow up to become a rapist or in general a terrible person because of the father. Mother's health is the second case in which abortion should be allowed, assuming of course that it's an either or scenario, our goal will be to save both of them to the best of our abilities. Incest is the last and final case in which abortion should be a right due to birth defects in the child that could occur.

-snip-

I would like to add two points on two, on the fact that you should also allow abortions if they are under 18 or the contraceptives failed aswell, and while I agree with your point , it wouldnt be able to be enforced, and would push people to have illegal abortions outside of a KFC type of situation where the woman could very well die from a botched abortion. So thats why choice is the best option right now.

Under 18 I can understand that too, I'm not informed on contraceptives so no comment, well I mean if we are pronounced dead when the heart stops pumping, why aren't we considered alive when the heart starts pumping? For the women who don't want the baby there should be healthcare options they can take or some plan you know?

[Katganistan]

I would consede defeat on the matter if all clinics needed to play on loop babies crying while people ask wait and perform abortions. Hey maybe people should set up huge stereos outside clinics of crying babies and babies saying mommy.

Nice. Why don't you just scream at them that they're baby-murdering sluts? I mean, do you really think emotional abuse is appropriate?

[Omakhandia]

I would consede defeat on the matter if all clinics needed to play on loop babies crying while people ask wait and perform abortions. Hey maybe people should set up huge stereos outside clinics of crying babies and babies saying mommy.

Fetuses can't cry, so this isn't even remotely relevant. But sure, play whatever you want. Crying babies are better than muzak.

[Keshiland]

I would consede defeat on the matter if all clinics needed to play on loop babies crying while people ask wait and perform abortions. Hey maybe people should set up huge stereos outside clinics of crying babies and babies saying mommy.

Nice. Why don't you just scream at them that they're baby-murdering sluts? I mean, do you really think emotional abuse is appropriate?

Its not abuse its tapping into the maternal instinked and it would stop a huge amount of people from getting an abortions.

Playing things like crying babies, I want my mommy, mommy please no, and crying while saying mommy.

[New haven america]

Nice. Why don't you just scream at them that they're baby-murdering sluts? I mean, do you really think emotional abuse is appropriate?

Its not abuse its tapping into the maternal instinked and it would stop a huge amount of people from getting an abortions.

Playing things like crying babies, I want my mommy, mommy please no, and crying while saying mommy.

If I was a women who want an abortion that would just make me want to get one even more.

Also, what's an "Instinked"?