Free public colleges

[Neutraligon]

An interesting question about college. Should public colleges be free to students? In my personal opinion all public schools should be free to all students at the point of the student (ie paid by taxpayers). That is, all books, supplies (calculators if needed for a class, labs, etc), parking spaces, etc should be free to the student. This includes public colleges. While public colleges would still be able to select which students enter them, and can be as selective as they wish the instate students should not have to pay (and I am debating about out of state). This does not include the stuff professors are working on, who will still need the grants and the such they currently need and get, but would apply to say "tuition." The only one I think students would need to pay for themselves would be housing and that only since some campuses simply do not have the space to house all those students.

So what do you all think?

[MERIZoC]

You can go further. Denmark pays students to attend school. It's one of the forms of welfare there. I think it's great.

[Genivaria]

100% yes.
Make them maintain a certain GPA and they'll get all the funding they need.

[Saiwania]

This will only cause credential inflation because if everyone has a degree, employers will just expect a 4 year degree instead of a high school diploma for a minimum wage job. People will take junk degrees because there is no student debt consequence for running up a five to six figure tab on the taxpayer's dime. Plenty of college graduates in the US never found a job relating to their major and still work at McDonalds, Walmart, or whatever to this day.

[Noraika]

An interesting question about college. Should public colleges be free to students? In my personal opinion all public schools should be free to all students at the point of the student (ie paid by taxpayers). That is, all books, supplies (calculators if needed for a class, labs, etc), parking spaces, etc should be free to the student. This includes public colleges. While public colleges would still be able to select which students enter them, and can be as selective as they wish the instate students should not have to pay (and I am debating about out of state). This does not include the stuff professors are working on, who will still need the grants and the such they currently need and get, but would apply to say "tuition." The only one I think students would need to pay for themselves would be housing and that only since some campuses simply do not have the space to house all those students.

So what do you all think?

I would hope that we could make housing as available as possible, and at least subsidize the costs, or completely cover it, on a needs based basis (or maybe they work for the university in exchange for housing or the like). Overall, I'd like to see housing expanded and available to the student population, but I understand it will take quite a bit of finagling in order to secure that.

Plus we should follow Denmark and Sweden and pay students a stipend for attending school, as was said before.

Otherwise, I couldn't agree more!

[Soldati Senza Confini]

An interesting question about college. Should public colleges be free to students? In my personal opinion all public schools should be free to all students at the point of the student (ie paid by taxpayers). That is, all books, supplies (calculators if needed for a class, labs, etc), parking spaces, etc should be free to the student. This includes public colleges. While public colleges would still be able to select which students enter them, and can be as selective as they wish the instate students should not have to pay (and I am debating about out of state). This does not include the stuff professors are working on, who will still need the grants and the such they currently need and get, but would apply to say "tuition." The only one I think students would need to pay for themselves would be housing and that only since some campuses simply do not have the space to house all those students.

So what do you all think?

I don't think that free public colleges are economically feasible, personally. Although I am not sure of the data because you didn't offer an economic analysis on it either, and I am willing to change my position with data presented, it seems that to make colleges and universities cheap for taxpayers in the end you would have to either cut several programs off of universities, or more importantly, use some mathematical fuckery to deal with it.

Ultimately, I do think we can further subsidize public state universities, but making it free? I don't think we can, but again, I could be wrong.

[Neutraligon]

This will only cause credential inflation because if everyone has a degree, employers will just expect a 4 year degree instead of a high school diploma for a minimum wage job. People will take junk degrees because there is no student debt consequence for running up a five to six figure tab on the taxpayer's dime. Plenty of college graduates in the US never found a job relating to their major and still work at McDonalds, Walmart, or whatever to this day.

Given that I included that colleges could still select who would enter how would this cause credential inflation? What do you mean by jun degrees, and since these colleges are already providing them how is this not already happening? Why are you assuming more students would be accepted?

[Genivaria]

This will only cause credential inflation because if everyone has a degree, employers will just expect a 4 year degree instead of a high school diploma for a minimum wage job. People will take junk degrees because there is no student debt consequence for running up a five to six figure tab on the taxpayer's dime. Plenty of college graduates in the US never found a job relating to their major and still work at McDonalds, Walmart, or whatever to this day.

I'm sorry what the fuck are you talking about?
You know you don't need a HS diploma to work a minimum wage job right?
And are you aware that a HS diploma gets you almost nowhere anymore?

[Sanctissima]

I think tuition should be free at public colleges (provided students meet a base level of academic performance), but not other things associated with them. Students should still have to pay for textbooks, residence, parking and other add-ons. The government shouldn't be expected to provide everything.

[Palmyrion]

100% yes.
Make them maintain a certain GPA and they'll get all the funding they need.

That would be a good balance between quality and being paid to study.

Take for example, Philippine Science High School: they pay your stipends according to your socio-economic class (the rich kids get only Php 500; the one at the bottom get nearly Php 2,500). You have to maintain a GWA (General Weighted Average) though, or have no failing grades (nothing between 2.75-5.00)*, if you want to stay in Pisay (the colloquial name) and enjoy the benefits of free schoolbooks and dormitory, latter only for a few whose residences are quite far from Pisay or want to learn "how to be independent".

*For more questions about PSHS's grading system, you are free to ask from someone with firsthand experience in the student end.

[Noraika]

I don't think that free public colleges are economically feasible, personally. Although I am not sure of the data because you didn't offer an economic analysis on it either, and I am willing to change my position with data presented, it seems that to make colleges and universities cheap for taxpayers in the end you would have to either cut several programs off of universities, or more importantly, use some mathematical fuckery to deal with it.

Ultimately, I do think we can further subsidize public state universities, but making it free? I don't think we can, but again, I could be wrong.

To be honest, if Denmark and Sweden, much smaller countries with even less resources per capita, are able to not only cover top-class education but also PAY A STIPEND to their students for attending public higher education, and virtually every other developed nation (other than Anglophone ones) offers free public university to the entirety of EU citizens, America really has no excuse.

[Neutraligon]

An interesting question about college. Should public colleges be free to students? In my personal opinion all public schools should be free to all students at the point of the student (ie paid by taxpayers). That is, all books, supplies (calculators if needed for a class, labs, etc), parking spaces, etc should be free to the student. This includes public colleges. While public colleges would still be able to select which students enter them, and can be as selective as they wish the instate students should not have to pay (and I am debating about out of state). This does not include the stuff professors are working on, who will still need the grants and the such they currently need and get, but would apply to say "tuition." The only one I think students would need to pay for themselves would be housing and that only since some campuses simply do not have the space to house all those students.

So what do you all think?

I would hope that we could make housing as available as possible, and at least subsidize the costs, or completely cover it, on a needs based basis (or maybe they work for the university in exchange for housing or the like).

I would have no problem with giving students housing on a needs based basis. For instance those that are unable to drive/walk/take a bus/etc within a certain time period to reach the school, those whose parents have kicked them out of the house, etc would get priority.

Overall, I'd like to see housing expanded and available to the student population, but I understand it will take quite a bit of finagling in order to secure that.

That is why I excluded it. I was on a campus that was having a serious issue housing the students, it had to kick seniors to off campus housing which was more expensive. And this was a state school.

Plus we should follow Denmark and Sweden and pay students a stipend for attending school, as was said before.

Otherwise, I couldn't agree more!

Not sure we could get people to agree to paying students.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I think tuition should be free at public colleges (provided students meet a base level of academic performance), but not other things associated with them. Students should still have to pay for textbooks, residence, parking and other add-ons. The government shouldn't be expected to provide everything.

I think the program we have in Texas is great for books. We actually have a lot of say in what the content of books are for publishers because we are the greatest buyer of books in the United States, all because we made sure to setup a fund to cover for books.

If this could be expanded to college books to be partially subsidized, to where the University matches a dollar or two for each dollar the student has to pay for that book it'd make books that would otherwise be far too expensive to buy more affordable for students.

[Palmyrion]

This will only cause credential inflation because if everyone has a degree, employers will just expect a 4 year degree instead of a high school diploma for a minimum wage job. People will take junk degrees because there is no student debt consequence for running up a five to six figure tab on the taxpayer's dime. Plenty of college graduates in the US never found a job relating to their major and still work at McDonalds, Walmart, or whatever to this day.

I'm sorry what the fuck are you talking about?
You know you don't need a HS diploma to work a minimum wage job right?
And are you aware that a HS diploma gets you almost nowhere anymore?

Why not go full Philippines and issue certificates of having undergone training as a skilled laborer? Skilled labor is becoming a fad nowadays...besides, it's not just college education that can land you a job. I ain't trusting a mechanical engineer to be in the visual design department of my company.

Because, here in the Philippines, if you want to enter a position of skilled labor, all you need is a TESDA (Technical Education and Skilled Development Authority) issued National Certificate, plus some other credentials the company demands (college degree is too much for a credential for a skilled laborer IMHO).

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I don't think that free public colleges are economically feasible, personally. Although I am not sure of the data because you didn't offer an economic analysis on it either, and I am willing to change my position with data presented, it seems that to make colleges and universities cheap for taxpayers in the end you would have to either cut several programs off of universities, or more importantly, use some mathematical fuckery to deal with it.

Ultimately, I do think we can further subsidize public state universities, but making it free? I don't think we can, but again, I could be wrong.

To be honest, if Denmark and Sweden, much smaller countries with even less resources per capita, are able to not only cover top-class education but also PAY A STIPEND to their students for attending public higher education, and virtually every other developed nation (other than Anglophone ones) offers free public university to the entirety of EU citizens, America really has no excuse.

Yes, however, I must ask, how many people go to college in these countries, in raw numbers and as a percentage of the population.

See, over here it is not unknown to see universities with 25,000+ students attending. My uni is actually 26,000+ people attending it as of 2016, and UT in Austin has more than 50,000 people attending.

[Genivaria]

I'm sorry what the fuck are you talking about?
You know you don't need a HS diploma to work a minimum wage job right?
And are you aware that a HS diploma gets you almost nowhere anymore?

Why not go full Philippines and issue certificates of having undergone training as a skilled laborer? Skilled labor is becoming a fad nowadays...besides, it's not just college education that can land you a job. I ain't trusting a mechanical engineer to be in the visual design department of my company.

Because, here in the Philippines, if you want to enter a position of skilled labor, all you need is a TESDA (Technical Education and Skilled Development Authority) issued National Certificate, plus some other credentials the company demands (college degree is too much for a credential for a skilled laborer IMHO).

I do also think that we need to encourage more Trade classes in High School.
I tried to take an Auto-shop class to learn something useful but the class was completely full so I got stuck with fucking Woodshop.

[Sanctissima]

I think tuition should be free at public colleges (provided students meet a base level of academic performance), but not other things associated with them. Students should still have to pay for textbooks, residence, parking and other add-ons. The government shouldn't be expected to provide everything.

I think the program we have in Texas is great for books. We actually have a lot of say in what the content of books are for publishers because we are the greatest buyer of books in the United States, all because we made sure to setup a fund to cover for books.

If this could be expanded to college books to be partially subsidized, to where the University matches a dollar or two for each dollar the student has to pay for that book it'd make books that would otherwise be far too expensive to buy more affordable for students.

Eh, public colleges do still need to off-set their costs somewhat, since the alternative is very substantial increases in taxes. Texas' program for textbooks works well when students are still paying for tuition, but it would probably just be an added burden in a system where public post-secondary tuition is free.

[Neutraligon]

I think tuition should be free at public colleges (provided students meet a base level of academic performance), but not other things associated with them. Students should still have to pay for textbooks, residence, parking and other add-ons. The government shouldn't be expected to provide everything.

I think the program we have in Texas is great for books. We actually have a lot of say in what the content of books are for publishers because we are the greatest buyer of books in the United States, all because we made sure to setup a fund to cover for books.

If this could be expanded to college books to be partially subsidized, to where the University matches a dollar or two for each dollar the student has to pay for that book it'd make books that would otherwise be far too expensive to buy more affordable for students.

Sorry but I really don't like how big a say Texas has in that given the issue they have when it comes to religion. That being said a fund which was self funding for the textbooks would be a possibility.

I was told by my mom that her public schools at the below college level used to pay for all additions, including books, pens paper etc. I think I might exclude laptops (have the school provide computers in the library and the such) but I do think that the basics for the classes like the books and pens and notebooks should be payed for by the school.

[Noraika]

Not sure we could get people to agree to paying students.

It's usually for living expenses. In Sweden, for example, you receive a small stipend and financial aid "intended to make it easier to study and thereby contribute to a high level of participation in education. Moreover, it is intended to level out the differences between individuals and groups in the population so as to make society fairer. Financial aid is primarily intended to cover a student's living costs during their education."

[Source: Government Offices of Sweden]

[Sanctissima]

I don't think that free public colleges are economically feasible, personally. Although I am not sure of the data because you didn't offer an economic analysis on it either, and I am willing to change my position with data presented, it seems that to make colleges and universities cheap for taxpayers in the end you would have to either cut several programs off of universities, or more importantly, use some mathematical fuckery to deal with it.

Ultimately, I do think we can further subsidize public state universities, but making it free? I don't think we can, but again, I could be wrong.

To be honest, if Denmark and Sweden, much smaller countries with even less resources per capita, are able to not only cover top-class education but also PAY A STIPEND to their students for attending public higher education, and virtually every other developed nation (other than Anglophone ones) offers free public university to the entirety of EU citizens, America really has no excuse.

If you're fine with having taxes set at more than 50% of your income, then yes, you can do what Denmark and Sweden do.

If not, you need some moderation with your welfare state.

[Palmyrion]

Why not go full Philippines and issue certificates of having undergone training as a skilled laborer? Skilled labor is becoming a fad nowadays...besides, it's not just college education that can land you a job. I ain't trusting a mechanical engineer to be in the visual design department of my company.

Because, here in the Philippines, if you want to enter a position of skilled labor, all you need is a TESDA (Technical Education and Skilled Development Authority) issued National Certificate, plus some other credentials the company demands (college degree is too much for a credential for a skilled laborer IMHO).

I do also think that we need to encourage more Trade classes in High School.
I tried to take an Auto-shop class to learn something useful but the class was completely full so I got stuck with fucking Woodshop.

Wait...in America, there ain't much people taking Tech-Voc training?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

I think the program we have in Texas is great for books. We actually have a lot of say in what the content of books are for publishers because we are the greatest buyer of books in the United States, all because we made sure to setup a fund to cover for books.

If this could be expanded to college books to be partially subsidized, to where the University matches a dollar or two for each dollar the student has to pay for that book it'd make books that would otherwise be far too expensive to buy more affordable for students.

Eh, public colleges do still need to off-set their costs somewhat, since the alternative is very substantial increases in taxes. Texas' program for textbooks works well when students are still paying for tuition, but it would probably just be an added burden in a system where public post-secondary tuition is free.

Actually, Texas' program for textbooks only covers compulsory K-12 education.

What I am proposing is a sort of additional fund to give block grants to colleges so they can match certain students' dollar amount, or all students' dollar amounts, to the amount they have to pay for the book. That way you can bring down the cost of an 800 dollar book to, say, 600, or even 400, which is far more affordable to the student.

[Saiwania]

I'm sorry what the fuck are you talking about? You know you don't need a HS diploma to work a minimum wage job right? And are you aware that a HS diploma gets you almost nowhere anymore?

You don't need one strictly speaking but let's be real, almost nobody wants to hire someone who doesn't at least have a GED. They have a higher unemployment rate than those who didn't graduate K-12 statistically speaking. You can make up for a lack of college if you have relevant work experience for whatever you're applying for.

How HR tends to work is simple, you have a room of 20+ people all competing for the same job, if all of them don't have relevant experience, the ones with college education will be chosen instead. It doesn't matter if the person with less education has the right work ethic or has more informal experience, all education is really used for is as a narrowing tool for if too many people are applying and a decision has to be made for settling on only a handful, of which only one will ultimately win out for a job.

[Randsbeik]

I don't think that free public colleges are economically feasible, personally. Although I am not sure of the data because you didn't offer an economic analysis on it either, and I am willing to change my position with data presented, it seems that to make colleges and universities cheap for taxpayers in the end you would have to either cut several programs off of universities, or more importantly, use some mathematical fuckery to deal with it.

Ultimately, I do think we can further subsidize public state universities, but making it free? I don't think we can, but again, I could be wrong.

To be honest, if Denmark and Sweden, much smaller countries with even less resources per capita, are able to not only cover top-class education but also PAY A STIPEND to their students for attending public higher education, and virtually every other developed nation (other than Anglophone ones) offers free public university to the entirety of EU citizens, America really has no excuse.

The combined population of Denmark and Sweden is about 14.3 Million. That is nowhere near close to the US population of 318 million. Education can't just "work the same" as it does in the Nordic countries.

Also, I have to ask, why do people need "free" college in the first place? What justifies the taxation?

[Genivaria]

To be honest, if Denmark and Sweden, much smaller countries with even less resources per capita, are able to not only cover top-class education but also PAY A STIPEND to their students for attending public higher education, and virtually every other developed nation (other than Anglophone ones) offers free public university to the entirety of EU citizens, America really has no excuse.

If you're fine with having taxes set at more than 50% of your income, then yes, you can do what Denmark and Sweden do.

If not, you need some moderation with your welfare state.

That's TOP income tax rate actually.