Christian Discussion Thread V

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Why not?

And I mean that I think positively of you.

I don't want the idea of us splitting away from the others because we're doing "weird stuff". Rather, we're trying to make things right.

Yes I believe that is how Protestants would see themselves, there no ambiguity here on that matter

[Winnopolis]

I don't want the idea of us splitting away from the others because we're doing "weird stuff". Rather, we're trying to make things right.

Yes I believe that is how Protestants would see themselves, there no ambiguity here on that matter

Meh,

[Menassa]

The Hebrew Scriptures as well in Deuteronomy 13 state that False Prophets can preform miracles.

Which begs the questions: By what power? And how can one tell a true Prophet from a false one if that is the case?

The Bible declares openly and clearly what constitutes a False Prophet vs a True prophet in Deuteronomy 13 and in Deuteronomy 18.

What do you guys think about us? I'm a born-again Christian.

Depends on you as a person really, I try my best not to generalize.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

Yes I believe that is how Protestants would see themselves, there no ambiguity here on that matter

Meh,

There's no need for dissonance. Nobody here is has any illusions on why the Protestant's aim to do. No one here thinks they're witches or anything like that. To us Catholics, you're simply wrong. Well intentioned but ultimately misqguided. There's no need for animosity.

[Weltschmerzen]

So, with becoming adult, and having a curiosity as a child, I decided to go and look for a church to become baptized in. I've learned a lot last year, as I was a student in Catholic catechism, and I've come to a sad conclusion that I do not like Catholicism in our nation (Northern Europe). In Italy it feels warm, I admit, but with many reforms that, in my opinion, go a little bit too far and with the current pope I would like to look a bit further.

Sadly, I live in a small village with two different churches; one Roman Catholic one and a Protestant (Reformed) Church. Maybe I will take the decision later when I live in a somewhat larger town where there are more churches, the Anglican church seems interesting to me.

May I ask what kind of reformed church it is? Does it describe itself as say, Presbyterian for example, or just Swiss reformed?

Dutch Reformed, AFAIK

So, with becoming adult, and having a curiosity as a child, I decided to go and look for a church to become baptized in. I've learned a lot last year, as I was a student in Catholic catechism, and I've come to a sad conclusion that I do not like Catholicism in our nation (Northern Europe). In Italy it feels warm, I admit, but with many reforms that, in my opinion, go a little bit too far and with the current pope I would like to look a bit further.

Sadly, I live in a small village with two different churches; one Roman Catholic one and a Protestant (Reformed) Church. Maybe I will take the decision later when I live in a somewhat larger town where there are more churches, the Anglican church seems interesting to me.

Well, as you noted, that means you may need to wait until you have access to more churches, since right now it's either A or B, with nowhere to go if you have serious objections to both...

However, if you are looking for something more traditionalist than Catholicism, I would strongly recommend that you consider the Orthodox Church. Unfortunately, Orthodox parishes in Northern Europe are quite rare, so your ability to visit one may depend on where you eventually end up living (there's always a few in large cities, but outside of them, not so much).

I visited a service to an Orthodox church one time, I would say that it was very interesting but there is not really a national ''bound'' to it. My ancestors weren't Orthodox so I see no reason to become Orthodox myself.

So, with becoming adult, and having a curiosity as a child, I decided to go and look for a church to become baptized in. I've learned a lot last year, as I was a student in Catholic catechism, and I've come to a sad conclusion that I do not like Catholicism in our nation (Northern Europe). In Italy it feels warm, I admit, but with many reforms that, in my opinion, go a little bit too far and with the current pope I would like to look a bit further.

Sadly, I live in a small village with two different churches; one Roman Catholic one and a Protestant (Reformed) Church. Maybe I will take the decision later when I live in a somewhat larger town where there are more churches, the Anglican church seems interesting to me.

Not a fan of Protestant Reformed?

I've had a Reformed neighbour for a time, the church didn't allow him to have a television.

[The Archregimancy]

I visited a service to an Orthodox church one time, I would say that it was very interesting but there is not really a national ''bound'' to it. My ancestors weren't Orthodox so I see no reason to become Orthodox myself.

Ancestry doesn't define Orthodoxy. I'm British; it didn't stop me from becoming Orthodox.

The 19th-century tendency to turn Orthodoxy into a series of ethnically based 'national' churches no doubt diminished Orthodoxy in the eyes of many non-Orthodox by making it look like something you had to be born into to fully appreciate. Alas, many Orthodox parishes in non-traditionally Orthodox parishes perpetuate this perception by making themselves a stronghold of Greek and Russian (or other) communities in a particular area.

But this has never really been the case. Like Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy claims to be the one universal Church.

As a result, most parish priests will welcome serious enquiry from the non-Orthodox.

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're Dutch. If you're seriously interested, then the Orthodox church in Amsterdam has a Dutch priest (English; Nederlands) who's himself a convert, and would likely be happy to discuss Orthodoxy with you.

[Weltschmerzen]

I visited a service to an Orthodox church one time, I would say that it was very interesting but there is not really a national ''bound'' to it. My ancestors weren't Orthodox so I see no reason to become Orthodox myself.

Ancestry doesn't define Orthodoxy. I'm British; it didn't stop me from becoming Orthodox.

The 19th-century tendency to turn Orthodoxy into a series of ethnically based 'national' churches no doubt diminished Orthodoxy in the eyes of many non-Orthodox by making it look like something you had to be born into to fully appreciate. Alas, many Orthodox parishes in non-traditionally Orthodox parishes perpetuate this perception by making themselves a stronghold of Greek and Russian (or other) communities in a particular area.

But this has never really been the case. Like Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy claims to be the one universal Church.

As a result, most parish priests will welcome serious enquiry from the non-Orthodox.

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're Dutch. If you're seriously interested, then the Orthodox church in Amsterdam has a Dutch priest (English; Nederlands) who's himself a convert, and would likely be happy to discuss Orthodoxy with you.

I understand, and yes I am Dutch. I've been in Russia last month and visited two Orthodox churches, in which one we were allowed to take pictures; I'll upload them later here (both in Kazan). I've also studied Catholic catechism last year and, as I'm not baptized and raised without religion, so to say. And after a year I've learned a lot about Christianity. Especially the church history is very interesting, but what I disliked to hear is that everything is in communion. Don't get me wrong, I understand the fact that faith cannot be acquired on your own, but I thought Christianity would be more a somewhat more peaceful, individual quest. And I got the impression that in Catholicism faith is bounded in communion, nothing you can do on your own. It's what I somewhat disliked and I am afraid the same goes for Orthodoxy.

[The BlAAtschApen]

I visited a service to an Orthodox church one time, I would say that it was very interesting but there is not really a national ''bound'' to it. My ancestors weren't Orthodox so I see no reason to become Orthodox myself.

Ancestry doesn't define Orthodoxy. I'm British; it didn't stop me from becoming Orthodox.

The 19th-century tendency to turn Orthodoxy into a series of ethnically based 'national' churches no doubt diminished Orthodoxy in the eyes of many non-Orthodox by making it look like something you had to be born into to fully appreciate. Alas, many Orthodox parishes in non-traditionally Orthodox parishes perpetuate this perception by making themselves a stronghold of Greek and Russian (or other) communities in a particular area.

But this has never really been the case. Like Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy claims to be the one universal Church.

As a result, most parish priests will welcome serious enquiry from the non-Orthodox.

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're Dutch. If you're seriously interested, then the Orthodox church in Amsterdam has a Dutch priest (English; Nederlands) who's himself a convert, and would likely be happy to discuss Orthodoxy with you.

Ah, that explains the whole Russian vs Greek vs Bulgarian etc. orthodoxy thing.


I've also visited various Orthodox churches, but mostly for tourism reasons (Moscow, Saint Petersburg, Ekaterinenburg, Crete).

[The Archregimancy]

Ancestry doesn't define Orthodoxy. I'm British; it didn't stop me from becoming Orthodox.

The 19th-century tendency to turn Orthodoxy into a series of ethnically based 'national' churches no doubt diminished Orthodoxy in the eyes of many non-Orthodox by making it look like something you had to be born into to fully appreciate. Alas, many Orthodox parishes in non-traditionally Orthodox parishes perpetuate this perception by making themselves a stronghold of Greek and Russian (or other) communities in a particular area.

But this has never really been the case. Like Roman Catholicism, Orthodoxy claims to be the one universal Church.

As a result, most parish priests will welcome serious enquiry from the non-Orthodox.

If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're Dutch. If you're seriously interested, then the Orthodox church in Amsterdam has a Dutch priest (English; Nederlands) who's himself a convert, and would likely be happy to discuss Orthodoxy with you.

Ah, that explains the whole Russian vs Greek vs Bulgarian etc. orthodoxy thing.

The thing is, the Greeks, Russians, and Bulgarians are all part of the same Orthodox Church; the distinction lies in the territories they administer, not in differences of doctrine.

The issue is muddied outside of traditionally Orthodox countries in that immigrant communities tend to set up their own individual Orthodox churches rather than look to cooperate as part of a single pan-Orthodox structure (the pan-Orthodox church in Edinburgh is a rare exception), which makes it look like there are different national Orthodox churches. It can make it difficult for those of us who aren't from traditional Orthodox backgrounds, and struggle to find a church offering the liturgy in our own language (less of a problem for North Americans, but often a problem for Western Europeans).

Hypothetically speaking, it would be a bit like Catholics setting up individual Polish Catholic, Italian Catholic, French Catholic, and German Catholic churches in Greece, all offering the Catholic mass in their own language.

[Herskerstad]

May I ask what kind of reformed church it is? Does it describe itself as say, Presbyterian for example, or just Swiss reformed?

Dutch Reformed, AFAIK

The great question then becomes if it is Arminian or Calvinist.

[Salus Maior]

Why not?

And I mean that I think positively of you.

I don't want the idea of us splitting away from the others because we're doing "weird stuff". Rather, we're trying to make things right.

LOL, what "weird stuff"? We're not that different from Catholics and Orthodox.

I've had a Reformed neighbour for a time, the church didn't allow him to have a television.

I guess that'd do it Although, I've never heard of Reformed Churches (or Churches in general) in my area that would demand stuff like that, are Reformed Churches in Europe more....Strict?

[Living Stones]

Dutch Reformed, AFAIK

The great question then becomes if it is Arminian or Calvinist.

Wait, there are Arminian Reformed Churches? That would be news to me. Perhaps you're thinking of the Remonstrants?

[Tutukerala]

The great question then becomes if it is Arminian or Calvinist.

Wait, there are Arminian Reformed Churches? That would be news to me. Perhaps you're thinking of the Remonstrants?

Reformed Churches are basically Calvinists. Arminians are a minority in this tradition. Most Arminians are Pentecostals or Non-denotimail.

[Salus Maior]

The great question then becomes if it is Arminian or Calvinist.

Wait, there are Arminian Reformed Churches? That would be news to me. Perhaps you're thinking of the Remonstrants?

By the way, it's Arminian, not Armenian if that's what you're confused about.

[The Alexanderians]

Wait, there are Arminian Reformed Churches? That would be news to me. Perhaps you're thinking of the Remonstrants?

By the way, it's Arminian, not Armenian if that's what you're confused about.

I thank you for that distinction I thought it was a typo.

[Constantinopolis]

I understand, and yes I am Dutch. I've been in Russia last month and visited two Orthodox churches, in which one we were allowed to take pictures; I'll upload them later here (both in Kazan). I've also studied Catholic catechism last year and, as I'm not baptized and raised without religion, so to say. And after a year I've learned a lot about Christianity. Especially the church history is very interesting, but what I disliked to hear is that everything is in communion. Don't get me wrong, I understand the fact that faith cannot be acquired on your own, but I thought Christianity would be more a somewhat more peaceful, individual quest. And I got the impression that in Catholicism faith is bounded in communion, nothing you can do on your own. It's what I somewhat disliked and I am afraid the same goes for Orthodoxy.

Ah. Well, ancient Christianity is most definitely not an individual quest. "One can be damned alone, but saved only with others", as the old saying goes. The concept of communion is at the very heart of the ancient Christian faith, both Catholic and Orthodox. That doesn't mean that people can't have "alone time", or even spend most of their lives in solitary contemplation. After all, monks and nuns do separate themselves from the world, and spend a lot of their time in solitude. In the Orthodox tradition, some of the more "advanced" ascetics can even decide to leave the monastery and spend the rest of their lives alone in the wilderness. So it's perfectly fine, and sometimes even spiritually beneficial, to do things on your own.

However, even if we are not physically in the presence of other people, we must always keep other people in our thoughts and prayers, and seek to be in spiritual union with them. That is indeed a core part of Orthodoxy, just as it is for Catholicism. God is love, and we cannot follow God without having a bond of love between us and the rest of mankind. We cannot be saved as individuals, we can only be saved in communion.

Of course, there is one branch of Christianity that disagrees with all this: Protestantism. It is the Protestants - for example the Reformed Churches - that consider faith to be an individual quest.

[Constantinopolis]

I visited a service to an Orthodox church one time, I would say that it was very interesting but there is not really a national ''bound'' to it. My ancestors weren't Orthodox so I see no reason to become Orthodox myself.

Well, as Arch pointed out, Orthodoxy isn't supposed to be a national thing at all, although some communities have turned it into that.

Ancestry really should not matter. After all, since you are Dutch, there is a good chance your ancestors fought hard against Spanish Catholics, but that has no bearing on whether you should become a Catholic or not.

What do you guys think about us? I'm a born-again Christian.

Well, I think your theology is mistaken, but other than that, everything depends on the specific person we're talking about.

The thing is, the Greeks, Russians, and Bulgarians are all part of the same Orthodox Church; the distinction lies in the territories they administer, not in differences of doctrine.

The issue is muddied outside of traditionally Orthodox countries in that immigrant communities tend to set up their own individual Orthodox churches rather than look to cooperate as part of a single pan-Orthodox structure (the pan-Orthodox church in Edinburgh is a rare exception), which makes it look like there are different national Orthodox churches. It can make it difficult for those of us who aren't from traditional Orthodox backgrounds, and struggle to find a church offering the liturgy in our own language (less of a problem for North Americans, but often a problem for Western Europeans).

Yes, from the statistics I have seen, the majority of Orthodox parishes in North America offer the Divine Liturgy in English (or French in the case of Québec, and the native languages in Alaska are also used, although by a minority of parishes).

In Western Europe, however, the majority of Orthodox parishes still hold the Liturgy in the language of a local immigrant community.

Hypothetically speaking, it would be a bit like Catholics setting up individual Polish Catholic, Italian Catholic, French Catholic, and German Catholic churches in Greece, all offering the Catholic mass in their own language.

Of course, in the beginning, Catholic immigrants who arrived in majority-Protestant parts of the New World - especially in the United States - did precisely this. There were separate Italian Catholic, Irish Catholic and Polish Catholic parishes in the United States for a long time, serving the Mass in... well, in Latin, actually, but the conversation afterward was presumably in their own national languages. Eventually, however, as the various immigrant communities were assimilated into broader American culture, the national identities of the parishes faded away.

The exact same thing is happening to Orthodox parishes in North America, starting in the last 40-50 years. Many of them were originally set up by an immigrant community and served the Liturgy in their own language, but have since then switched to English, and no longer draw their membership from the original immigrant community.

Western Europe, however, has only recently become a destination for mass immigration, so most immigrants are still in the first or second generation, and therefore most of the Orthodox churches they've set up are still very strongly connected to one specific ethnic community.

[The Alexanderians]

I visited a service to an Orthodox church one time, I would say that it was very interesting but there is not really a national ''bound'' to it. My ancestors weren't Orthodox so I see no reason to become Orthodox myself.

Well, as Arch pointed out, Orthodoxy isn't supposed to be a national thing at all, although some communities have turned it into that.

Ancestry really should not matter. After all, since you are Dutch, there is a good chance your ancestors fought hard against Spanish Catholics, but that has no bearing on whether you should become a Catholic or not.

What do you guys think about us? I'm a born-again Christian.

Well, I think your theology is mistaken, but other than that, everything depends on the specific person we're talking about.

The thing is, the Greeks, Russians, and Bulgarians are all part of the same Orthodox Church; the distinction lies in the territories they administer, not in differences of doctrine.

The issue is muddied outside of traditionally Orthodox countries in that immigrant communities tend to set up their own individual Orthodox churches rather than look to cooperate as part of a single pan-Orthodox structure (the pan-Orthodox church in Edinburgh is a rare exception), which makes it look like there are different national Orthodox churches. It can make it difficult for those of us who aren't from traditional Orthodox backgrounds, and struggle to find a church offering the liturgy in our own language (less of a problem for North Americans, but often a problem for Western Europeans).

Yes, from the statistics I have seen, the majority of Orthodox parishes in North America offer the Divine Liturgy in English (or French in the case of Québec, and the native languages in Alaska are also used, although by a minority of parishes).

In Western Europe, however, the majority of Orthodox parishes still hold the Liturgy in the language of a local immigrant community.

Hypothetically speaking, it would be a bit like Catholics setting up individual Polish Catholic, Italian Catholic, French Catholic, and German Catholic churches in Greece, all offering the Catholic mass in their own language.

Of course, in the beginning, Catholic immigrants who arrived in majority-Protestant parts of the New World - especially in the United States - did precisely this. There were separate Italian Catholic, Irish Catholic and Polish Catholic parishes in the United States for a long time, serving the Mass in... well, in Latin, actually, but the conversation afterward was presumably in their own national languages. Eventually, however, as the various immigrant communities were assimilated into broader American culture, the national identities of the parishes faded away.

The exact same thing is happening to Orthodox parishes in North America, starting in the last 40-50 years. Many of them were originally set up by an immigrant community and served the Liturgy in their own language, but have since then switched to English, and no longer draw their membership from the original immigrant community.

Western Europe, however, has only recently become a destination for mass immigration, so most immigrants are still in the first or second generation, and therefore most of the Orthodox churches they've set up are still very strongly connected to one specific ethnic community.

It's worth noting that some parishes at least in the diocese of New York and New Jersey do their services in more than one language. Usually English and the immigrant community that established it (though most of it is in English anyway). For example St. Vladimir's in Trenton does Mass in English and Russian. Especially when the bishop is visiting.

[Salus Maior]

Of course, there is one branch of Christianity that disagrees with all this: Protestantism. It is the Protestants - for example the Reformed Churches - that consider faith to be an individual quest.

Hmm, we still value communing with fellow Christians though. I mean, even as a Protestant, I have to say that I wouldn't have gotten to the place I am in my faith if it weren't for the many discussions I've had with my fellow believers. In fact, I think it'd be fairly difficult to keep a doctrine of "individual faith quest" and "Sola Scriptura" at the same time, considering how often it says in the Bible that communion is important.

[Herskerstad]

The great question then becomes if it is Arminian or Calvinist.

Wait, there are Arminian Reformed Churches? That would be news to me. Perhaps you're thinking of the Remonstrants?

They are one branch, yes, but you will indeed find Arminian reformed churches.

[Salus Maior]

Wait, there are Arminian Reformed Churches? That would be news to me. Perhaps you're thinking of the Remonstrants?

They are one branch, yes, but you will indeed find Arminian reformed churches.

I think he mistook it for Armenian

Which I have also done more than once...

[The Alexanderians]

So I wanted to throw something out there a bit different for NS but kind of frequent to see else where. Suicide. I want it to be known that this is not a cry for help or an attempt to seek attention as that is prohibited in the forums. I simple want it to be discussed from (the many) Christian points of view.

[Othelos]

So I wanted to throw something out there a bit different for NS but kind of frequent to see else where. Suicide. I want it to be known that this is not a cry for help or an attempt to seek attention as that is prohibited in the forums. I simple want it to be discussed from (the many) Christian points of view.

suicide is a personal choice, god gave freedom of choice.

[Liberty and Linguistics]

So I wanted to throw something out there a bit different for NS but kind of frequent to see else where. Suicide. I want it to be known that this is not a cry for help or an attempt to seek attention as that is prohibited in the forums. I simple want it to be discussed from (the many) Christian points of view.

Well, some christians are morally opposed to the idea of suicide as it conflicts with a supposed god given idea that all life cannot be taken away, unless it is justified. To do otherwise is sinful. I've met many christians and even priests with this mindset. After a suicide attempt sophomore year, I talked to my local priest. Sure, I was an adamant atheist, but I needed a "wise" man to talk to. He told me that god doesn't intend for any creation to take their life away on their own volition, or in an unjustifiable circumstance. However, he also said that if one attempts suicide or succeeds, they have not committed a grave, unforgivable sin, and that god understands.

Now, I took it with a grain of salt, since I was a pretty firm atheist then. I'm still agnostic, but I find myself rejecting outright atheism more and more. But, that's besides the point. I thought it was an interesting discussion. To me, it seems that the christian view boils down to "God doesn't intend for any of us to commit suicide, but god is understanding and forgiving if we do commit suicide."

Hopefully that's a decent enough response. I've attempted suicide on a few occasions, so this is a bit of a touchy subject for me, and one where I may seem hypocritical. I think suicide is never the ethical choice, unless to save the lives of others, or to avoid a slow death or unbearable pain. I've been told by some NSGers "well, you've tried it, so who are you to say this?" I suppose it's a good point, but I think it's a mistake to commit suicide. Life has plenty to give, you just have to look for it. That often involves a lot of hardship and help seeking, but my point still stands.

[Tarsonis Survivors]

So I wanted to throw something out there a bit different for NS but kind of frequent to see else where. Suicide. I want it to be known that this is not a cry for help or an attempt to seek attention as that is prohibited in the forums. I simple want it to be discussed from (the many) Christian points of view.

Well, some christians are morally opposed to the idea of suicide as it conflicts with a supposed god given idea that all life cannot be taken away, unless it is justified. To do otherwise is sinful. I've met many christians and even priests with this mindset. After a suicide attempt sophomore year, I talked to my local priest. Sure, I was an adamant atheist, but I needed a "wise" man to talk to. He told me that god doesn't intend for any creation to take their life away on their own volition, or in an unjustifiable circumstance. However, he also said that if one attempts suicide or succeeds, they have not committed a grave, unforgivable sin, and that god understands.

Now, I took it with a grain of salt, since I was a pretty firm atheist then. I'm still agnostic, but I find myself rejecting outright atheism more and more. But, that's besides the point. I thought it was an interesting discussion. To me, it seems that the christian view boils down to "God doesn't intend for any of us to commit suicide, but god is understanding and forgiving if we do commit suicide."

Hopefully that's a decent enough response. I've attempted suicide on a few occasions, so this is a bit of a touchy subject for me, and one where I may seem hypocritical. I think suicide is never the ethical choice, unless to save the lives of others, or to avoid a slow death or unbearable pain. I've been told by some NSGers "well, you've tried it, so who are you to say this?" I suppose it's a good point, but I think it's a mistake to commit suicide. Life has plenty to give, you just have to look for it. That often involves a lot of hardship and help seeking, but my point still stands.

Mostly this. It's a case by case basis really. It used to be thought that all Suicides were damned, but that was before the advent of mental diseases and the like. Is a man who jumped out of the WTC tower to avoid burning to death, committing a grave sin? What about Robin Williams who due to Parkinson's, had symptoms of psychosis, and its questionable of how lucid he was when he committed suicide. Is it a sin to escape the ever present torture of Madness?

It all depends.