>look up source
>check out appendix
turns out US Muslims are pretty great, scoring above the median in everything we'd like them to score above the median in
Maybe the big problem lies outside of religion?
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by Kubra » Tue Jun 02, 2015 12:59 am
>look up source
by Iberonia » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:04 am
by Kubra » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:06 am
>take this data at face value, assume no other factorsIberonia wrote:Kubra wrote: >look up source
>check out appendix
turns out US Muslims are pretty great, scoring above the median in everything we'd like them to score above the median in
Maybe the big problem lies outside of religion?
They behave because this country is extremely weary of their beliefs and faith. They see the two routes: Become a part of the American identity and embrace a better life, or embrace your religion and make it the focal point of your existence. The former gives them more opportunities, the latter segregates them from the rest of the nation and creates a difficult to remove social barrier. In Europe they have been welcomed and tolerated, to the point that governments attempt to cater to their political and cultural whims. It is an absurd mess, and it is fortune that the U.S attracts the less orthodox Muslims, but part of that is also coercion by threat of force. If Muslims in the U.S caused the same type of problems they did in Europe, political correctness wouldn't stop them from getting a good kick from the general public.
by Iberonia » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:08 am
Kubra wrote:>take this data at face value, assume no other factorsIberonia wrote:
They behave because this country is extremely weary of their beliefs and faith. They see the two routes: Become a part of the American identity and embrace a better life, or embrace your religion and make it the focal point of your existence. The former gives them more opportunities, the latter segregates them from the rest of the nation and creates a difficult to remove social barrier. In Europe they have been welcomed and tolerated, to the point that governments attempt to cater to their political and cultural whims. It is an absurd mess, and it is fortune that the U.S attracts the less orthodox Muslims, but part of that is also coercion by threat of force. If Muslims in the U.S caused the same type of problems they did in Europe, political correctness wouldn't stop them from getting a good kick from the general public.
>but don't do that for this data, assume other factors, never mind that they're both from the same source!
bro srsly
by The Third Nova Terra of Scrin » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:09 am
Iberonia wrote:Kubra wrote: >look up source
>check out appendix
turns out US Muslims are pretty great, scoring above the median in everything we'd like them to score above the median in
Maybe the big problem lies outside of religion?
They behave because this country is extremely weary of their beliefs and faith. They see the two routes: Become a part of the American identity and embrace a better life, or embrace your religion and make it the focal point of your existence. The former gives them more opportunities, the latter segregates them from the rest of the nation and creates a difficult to remove social barrier. In Europe they have been welcomed and tolerated, to the point that governments attempt to cater to their political and cultural whims. It is an absurd mess, and it is fortune that the U.S attracts the less orthodox Muslims, but part of that is also coercion by threat of force. If Muslims in the U.S caused the same type of problems they did in Europe, political correctness wouldn't stop them from getting a good kick from the general public.
by The Romulan Republic » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:14 am
The Alma Mater wrote:The Romulan Republic wrote:
1. Statistics are known to be unreliable. In any case, I very much doubt that they actually polled every Muslim in the world. So I figure that they're combining results from various polls and/or they're extrapolating and may be off.
True, but they do fit the results of immigrant pollings in European nations. So while perhaps the overwhelming majority of muslims globally disagrees with these, disagreement is not what people who will actually talk to muslims in Europe are likely to hear.
Did I mention muslims have a PR problem ?
by The Romulan Republic » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:16 am
Iberonia wrote:The Romulan Republic wrote:
1. Statistics are known to be unreliable. In any case, I very much doubt that they actually polled every Muslim in the world. So I figure that they're combining results from various polls and/or they're extrapolating and may be off.
2. I see a wide range of opinions with the pro-murder opinions being a distinct minority.
3. Even if a majority of Muslims have been indoctrinated to think vile things, that does not mean all of them think that way or that all of them are bad people. People should be judged as individuals.
4. A lot of non-Muslims think some pretty horrible things too.
Now, if you want to disagree with Islam, that's fine with me. I don't demand that you agree with beliefs that are not your own. But Muslims are individual people and should be treated accordingly. And as with all people, their religion, right or wrong or a bit of both, is only part of what defines them.
Statistics are reliable, you don't need to poll everyone to get accurate results. That is statistics 101. Pew gets very good stats and has a reputation of reliability in accumulating and analyzing them. Islam is a danger to the West and needs to be handled harshly, there is no alternative. I refuse to let that degenerate ideology make it's way into the U.S after seeing it destroy the home of my grandparents.
by Kubra » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:19 am
>I use objective data and ignore everything else only when it suits me, when objective data doesn't suit me I use anecdotal evidence!Iberonia wrote:Kubra wrote: >take this data at face value, assume no other factors
>but don't do that for this data, assume other factors, never mind that they're both from the same source!
bro srsly
I'll rely on my interaction with the Muslim community to make up my mind, and the statistics pew reports are a good way of backing what I've dealt with. Continue making a defense for them, I don't really care.
by Iberonia » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:23 am
The Romulan Republic wrote:Iberonia wrote:
Statistics are reliable, you don't need to poll everyone to get accurate results. That is statistics 101. Pew gets very good stats and has a reputation of reliability in accumulating and analyzing them. Islam is a danger to the West and needs to be handled harshly, there is no alternative. I refuse to let that degenerate ideology make it's way into the U.S after seeing it destroy the home of my grandparents.
Statistics are not universally reliable. In any case, even if Pew is trustworthy, that does not invalidate my other points.
And when you say "Islam... needs to be handled harshly...", what does that mean? I presume it means handling Muslim people harshly. In which case, at best, you're arguing for discrimination. The only question is where on the spectrum you fall from "typical moderate conservative" to "Nazi".
Kubra wrote:>I use objective data and ignore everything else only when it suits me, when objective data doesn't suit me I use anecdotal evidence!Iberonia wrote:
I'll rely on my interaction with the Muslim community to make up my mind, and the statistics pew reports are a good way of backing what I've dealt with. Continue making a defense for them, I don't really care.
We're all guilty of this at one point or another, but no one is so cavalier about it as you
It's quite obvious you don't care for stats in the first place, you just want formulations you can fire from the barrel of a gun.
by The Alma Mater » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:23 am
The Romulan Republic wrote:The Alma Mater wrote:
True, but they do fit the results of immigrant pollings in European nations. So while perhaps the overwhelming majority of muslims globally disagrees with these, disagreement is not what people who will actually talk to muslims in Europe are likely to hear.
Did I mention muslims have a PR problem ?
Its hard to have good PR when people like ISIS tend to get the headlines and bigots are doing everything they can to portray such monsters as typical of Muslims.
by The Romulan Republic » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:25 am
Iberonia wrote:The Romulan Republic wrote:
Statistics are not universally reliable. In any case, even if Pew is trustworthy, that does not invalidate my other points.
And when you say "Islam... needs to be handled harshly...", what does that mean? I presume it means handling Muslim people harshly. In which case, at best, you're arguing for discrimination. The only question is where on the spectrum you fall from "typical moderate conservative" to "Nazi".
Putting their religion into the dustbin of history and finding a more appropriate alternative. Those that resist that change belong in the same dustbin.
by Kubra » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:30 am
careful I served over 300 tours of duty as a navy SEALIberonia wrote:Kubra wrote: >I use objective data and ignore everything else only when it suits me, when objective data doesn't suit me I use anecdotal evidence!
We're all guilty of this at one point or another, but no one is so cavalier about it as you
It's quite obvious you don't care for stats in the first place, you just want formulations you can fire from the barrel of a gun.
The barrel of a gun does wonders for making otherwise difficult to address problems into "addressed" problems. Interpret that as you will.
by The Romulan Republic » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:32 am
The Alma Mater wrote:The Romulan Republic wrote:
Its hard to have good PR when people like ISIS tend to get the headlines and bigots are doing everything they can to portray such monsters as typical of Muslims.
Oh, that would not be a problem whatsoever if muslims had a repution for being hardworking, useful members of society instead of that of lazy welfare recipient with out-of-control criminal children.
OR if there were not so many muslims living in the west who find it incredibly hard to just condomn IS outright, instead of immediately trying to blame Israel, the USA - or worse: state they support the ideals of IS, if not the methods.
What muslims need is something positive to show for themselves to balance the bad.
by Kubra » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:34 am
kurds are muslimThe Alma Mater wrote:The Romulan Republic wrote:
Its hard to have good PR when people like ISIS tend to get the headlines and bigots are doing everything they can to portray such monsters as typical of Muslims.
Oh, that would not be a problem whatsoever if muslims had a repution for being hardworking, useful members of society instead of that of lazy welfare recipient with out-of-control criminal children. OR if there were not so many muslims living in the west who find it incredibly hard to just condomn IS outright, instead of immediately trying to blame Israel, the USA - or worse: state they support the ideals of IS, if not the methods.
What muslims need is something positive to show for themselves to balance the bad.
by The Romulan Republic » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:50 am
by The Romulan Republic » Tue Jun 02, 2015 1:53 am
Kubra wrote:kurds are muslimThe Alma Mater wrote:
Oh, that would not be a problem whatsoever if muslims had a repution for being hardworking, useful members of society instead of that of lazy welfare recipient with out-of-control criminal children. OR if there were not so many muslims living in the west who find it incredibly hard to just condomn IS outright, instead of immediately trying to blame Israel, the USA - or worse: state they support the ideals of IS, if not the methods.
What muslims need is something positive to show for themselves to balance the bad.
everybody but the turks likes the kurds these days
by The Romulan Republic » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:10 am
Iberonia wrote:The Romulan Republic wrote:
Statistics are not universally reliable. In any case, even if Pew is trustworthy, that does not invalidate my other points.
And when you say "Islam... needs to be handled harshly...", what does that mean? I presume it means handling Muslim people harshly. In which case, at best, you're arguing for discrimination. The only question is where on the spectrum you fall from "typical moderate conservative" to "Nazi".
Putting their religion into the dustbin of history and finding a more appropriate alternative. Those that resist that change belong in the same dustbin.Kubra wrote: >I use objective data and ignore everything else only when it suits me, when objective data doesn't suit me I use anecdotal evidence!
We're all guilty of this at one point or another, but no one is so cavalier about it as you
It's quite obvious you don't care for stats in the first place, you just want formulations you can fire from the barrel of a gun.
The barrel of a gun does wonders for making otherwise difficult to address problems into "addressed" problems. Interpret that as you will.
by Ardoki » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:13 am
by Ardoki » Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:18 am
Threlizdun wrote:It's not purely the community. I rather highly respect many of the ideals of Islam. Much of its ethical foundation is appealing. The theology is the only issue I greatly differ on, but even still I have a strong attraction to it. No, just considering the possibility of converting to a certain faith is in no way the same as joining radical militias.Kubra wrote: dude if you're considering converting to a religion purely for community that's almost as bad as dudes joining sunni militia's for kicks and figuring out the qur'an on the plane
If you're gonna do something ridiculous like that in response to stress recite Nechayev's catechism's and fancy yourself the second coming of Ravachol, or go primmo. You won't have to subscribe to a worldview you don't actually hold, and with the latter you can have all the imagined community you want.
by Alsheb » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:06 am
Ardoki wrote:Threlizdun wrote:It's not purely the community. I rather highly respect many of the ideals of Islam. Much of its ethical foundation is appealing. The theology is the only issue I greatly differ on, but even still I have a strong attraction to it. No, just considering the possibility of converting to a certain faith is in no way the same as joining radical militias.
So you support crimes against humanity? The killing of LGBTQ+ people? The killing of those who exercise their right to free speech (blasphemy is punishable by death)? Those who de-convert (apostasy is punishable by death)? Women who are not slaves to men?
by Ardoki » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:07 am
Alsheb wrote:Ardoki wrote:So you support crimes against humanity? The killing of LGBTQ+ people? The killing of those who exercise their right to free speech (blasphemy is punishable by death)? Those who de-convert (apostasy is punishable by death)? Women who are not slaves to men?
Such penalties against apostasy and blasphemy exist in only a handful of countries, and the illegality of homosexuality is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. That women are treated ad second-rate is purely the effect of patriarchical society and institutionalised misoginy, and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran itself. What you do is simply take the actions of a handful of genocidal idiots and portray it as the message of Islam itself. That's as stupid as saying that Catholicism means burning witches and Judaism means killing Arabs.
by Malay Raya » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:41 am
Alsheb wrote:Ardoki wrote:So you support crimes against humanity? The killing of LGBTQ+ people? The killing of those who exercise their right to free speech (blasphemy is punishable by death)? Those who de-convert (apostasy is punishable by death)? Women who are not slaves to men?
Such penalties against apostasy and blasphemy exist in only a handful of countries, and the illegality of homosexuality is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. That women are treated ad second-rate is purely the effect of patriarchical society and institutionalised misoginy, and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran itself. What you do is simply take the actions of a handful of genocidal idiots and portray it as the message of Islam itself. That's as stupid as saying that Catholicism means burning witches and Judaism means killing Arabs.
by The Romulan Republic » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:43 am
by Ardoki » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:05 am
Malay Raya wrote:Alsheb wrote:Such penalties against apostasy and blasphemy exist in only a handful of countries, and the illegality of homosexuality is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. That women are treated ad second-rate is purely the effect of patriarchical society and institutionalised misoginy, and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran itself. What you do is simply take the actions of a handful of genocidal idiots and portray it as the message of Islam itself. That's as stupid as saying that Catholicism means burning witches and Judaism means killing Arabs.
Brother, homosexuality is mentioned in the Quran in several Ayah's regarding Prophet Lut's (English calls him Lot?) people. The Lut people were dominated by homosexuality lifestyle, the men with men and women with women. As far as my knowledge only Lut and his 2 daughters were the ones who were not homosexual among Lut's people. I recall having heard of stories from my Islam education teachers that even Prophet Lut himself didn't recognized himself as part of his people due to their activity.
His people even challenged Prophet Lut to show God's punishment against those who are homosexual after Lut did not stop telling them to stop their illegal actions before God's punishment arrives. Prophet Lut agreed to do just that, and raised his hands to pray.Quran, Surat Al-Ankabut Ayah 28 - 35
- And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Indeed, you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds.
- Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings [every] evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful."
- He said, "My Lord, support me against the corrupting people."
- And when Our messengers came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, "Indeed, we will destroy the people of that Lot's city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers."
- [Abraham] said, "Indeed, within it is Lot." They said, "We are more knowing of who is within it. We will surely save him and his family, except his wife. She is to be of those who remain behind."
- And when Our messengers came to Lot, he was distressed for them and felt for them great discomfort. They said, "Fear not, nor grieve. Indeed, we will save you and your family, except your wife; she is to be of those who remain behind.
- Indeed, we will bring down on the people of this city punishment from the sky because they have been defiantly disobedient."
- And We have certainly left of it a sign as clear evidence for a people who use reason.
by Ardoki » Tue Jun 02, 2015 4:08 am
The Romulan Republic wrote:Following up on my previous posting about the positive contributions of Muslims:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mu ... _laureates
Yes, its from Wikipedia, but there is a list of references.
And of course the link doesn't work.
Well, just go to Wikipedia and search for Muslim Nobel Laureates.
Update-The link works now.
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