Islam/Muslim Discussion Thread

[Kubra]

(Image)


That is all I have to contribute to a discussion about Islam.

>look up source
>check out appendix

turns out US Muslims are pretty great, scoring above the median in everything we'd like them to score above the median in
Maybe the big problem lies outside of religion?

[Iberonia]

(Image)


That is all I have to contribute to a discussion about Islam.

>look up source
>check out appendix

turns out US Muslims are pretty great, scoring above the median in everything we'd like them to score above the median in
Maybe the big problem lies outside of religion?

They behave because this country is extremely weary of their beliefs and faith. They see the two routes: Become a part of the American identity and embrace a better life, or embrace your religion and make it the focal point of your existence. The former gives them more opportunities, the latter segregates them from the rest of the nation and creates a difficult to remove social barrier. In Europe they have been welcomed and tolerated, to the point that governments attempt to cater to their political and cultural whims. It is an absurd mess, and it is fortune that the U.S attracts the less orthodox Muslims, but part of that is also coercion by threat of force. If Muslims in the U.S caused the same type of problems they did in Europe, political correctness wouldn't stop them from getting a good kick from the general public.

[Kubra]

>look up source
>check out appendix

turns out US Muslims are pretty great, scoring above the median in everything we'd like them to score above the median in
Maybe the big problem lies outside of religion?

They behave because this country is extremely weary of their beliefs and faith. They see the two routes: Become a part of the American identity and embrace a better life, or embrace your religion and make it the focal point of your existence. The former gives them more opportunities, the latter segregates them from the rest of the nation and creates a difficult to remove social barrier. In Europe they have been welcomed and tolerated, to the point that governments attempt to cater to their political and cultural whims. It is an absurd mess, and it is fortune that the U.S attracts the less orthodox Muslims, but part of that is also coercion by threat of force. If Muslims in the U.S caused the same type of problems they did in Europe, political correctness wouldn't stop them from getting a good kick from the general public.

>take this data at face value, assume no other factors
>but don't do that for this data, assume other factors, never mind that they're both from the same source!
bro srsly

[Iberonia]

They behave because this country is extremely weary of their beliefs and faith. They see the two routes: Become a part of the American identity and embrace a better life, or embrace your religion and make it the focal point of your existence. The former gives them more opportunities, the latter segregates them from the rest of the nation and creates a difficult to remove social barrier. In Europe they have been welcomed and tolerated, to the point that governments attempt to cater to their political and cultural whims. It is an absurd mess, and it is fortune that the U.S attracts the less orthodox Muslims, but part of that is also coercion by threat of force. If Muslims in the U.S caused the same type of problems they did in Europe, political correctness wouldn't stop them from getting a good kick from the general public.

>take this data at face value, assume no other factors
>but don't do that for this data, assume other factors, never mind that they're both from the same source!
bro srsly

I'll rely on my interaction with the Muslim community to make up my mind, and the statistics pew reports are a good way of backing what I've dealt with. Continue making a defense for them, I don't really care.

[The Third Nova Terra of Scrin]

>look up source
>check out appendix

turns out US Muslims are pretty great, scoring above the median in everything we'd like them to score above the median in
Maybe the big problem lies outside of religion?

They behave because this country is extremely weary of their beliefs and faith. They see the two routes: Become a part of the American identity and embrace a better life, or embrace your religion and make it the focal point of your existence. The former gives them more opportunities, the latter segregates them from the rest of the nation and creates a difficult to remove social barrier. In Europe they have been welcomed and tolerated, to the point that governments attempt to cater to their political and cultural whims. It is an absurd mess, and it is fortune that the U.S attracts the less orthodox Muslims, but part of that is also coercion by threat of force. If Muslims in the U.S caused the same type of problems they did in Europe, political correctness wouldn't stop them from getting a good kick from the general public.

You see that the left-wing political establishment in Europe have helped to cause all of the troubles. Meanwhile, in America, let's see how the American government is faring in this Muslim immigration integration problem.

[The Romulan Republic]

1. Statistics are known to be unreliable. In any case, I very much doubt that they actually polled every Muslim in the world. So I figure that they're combining results from various polls and/or they're extrapolating and may be off.

True, but they do fit the results of immigrant pollings in European nations. So while perhaps the overwhelming majority of muslims globally disagrees with these, disagreement is not what people who will actually talk to muslims in Europe are likely to hear.
Did I mention muslims have a PR problem ?

Its hard to have good PR when people like ISIS tend to get the headlines and bigots are doing everything they can to portray such monsters as typical of Muslims.

[The Romulan Republic]

1. Statistics are known to be unreliable. In any case, I very much doubt that they actually polled every Muslim in the world. So I figure that they're combining results from various polls and/or they're extrapolating and may be off.

2. I see a wide range of opinions with the pro-murder opinions being a distinct minority.

3. Even if a majority of Muslims have been indoctrinated to think vile things, that does not mean all of them think that way or that all of them are bad people. People should be judged as individuals.

4. A lot of non-Muslims think some pretty horrible things too.

Now, if you want to disagree with Islam, that's fine with me. I don't demand that you agree with beliefs that are not your own. But Muslims are individual people and should be treated accordingly. And as with all people, their religion, right or wrong or a bit of both, is only part of what defines them.

Statistics are reliable, you don't need to poll everyone to get accurate results. That is statistics 101. Pew gets very good stats and has a reputation of reliability in accumulating and analyzing them. Islam is a danger to the West and needs to be handled harshly, there is no alternative. I refuse to let that degenerate ideology make it's way into the U.S after seeing it destroy the home of my grandparents.

Statistics are not universally reliable. In any case, even if Pew is trustworthy, that does not invalidate my other points.

And when you say "Islam... needs to be handled harshly...", what does that mean? I presume it means handling Muslim people harshly. In which case, at best, you're arguing for discrimination. The only question is where on the spectrum you fall from "typical moderate conservative" to "Nazi".

[Kubra]

>take this data at face value, assume no other factors
>but don't do that for this data, assume other factors, never mind that they're both from the same source!
bro srsly

I'll rely on my interaction with the Muslim community to make up my mind, and the statistics pew reports are a good way of backing what I've dealt with. Continue making a defense for them, I don't really care.

>I use objective data and ignore everything else only when it suits me, when objective data doesn't suit me I use anecdotal evidence!

We're all guilty of this at one point or another, but no one is so cavalier about it as you
It's quite obvious you don't care for stats in the first place, you just want formulations you can fire from the barrel of a gun.

[Iberonia]

Statistics are reliable, you don't need to poll everyone to get accurate results. That is statistics 101. Pew gets very good stats and has a reputation of reliability in accumulating and analyzing them. Islam is a danger to the West and needs to be handled harshly, there is no alternative. I refuse to let that degenerate ideology make it's way into the U.S after seeing it destroy the home of my grandparents.

Statistics are not universally reliable. In any case, even if Pew is trustworthy, that does not invalidate my other points.

And when you say "Islam... needs to be handled harshly...", what does that mean? I presume it means handling Muslim people harshly. In which case, at best, you're arguing for discrimination. The only question is where on the spectrum you fall from "typical moderate conservative" to "Nazi".

Putting their religion into the dustbin of history and finding a more appropriate alternative. Those that resist that change belong in the same dustbin.

I'll rely on my interaction with the Muslim community to make up my mind, and the statistics pew reports are a good way of backing what I've dealt with. Continue making a defense for them, I don't really care.

>I use objective data and ignore everything else only when it suits me, when objective data doesn't suit me I use anecdotal evidence!

We're all guilty of this at one point or another, but no one is so cavalier about it as you
It's quite obvious you don't care for stats in the first place, you just want formulations you can fire from the barrel of a gun.

The barrel of a gun does wonders for making otherwise difficult to address problems into "addressed" problems. Interpret that as you will.

[The Alma Mater]

True, but they do fit the results of immigrant pollings in European nations. So while perhaps the overwhelming majority of muslims globally disagrees with these, disagreement is not what people who will actually talk to muslims in Europe are likely to hear.
Did I mention muslims have a PR problem ?

Its hard to have good PR when people like ISIS tend to get the headlines and bigots are doing everything they can to portray such monsters as typical of Muslims.

Oh, that would not be a problem whatsoever if muslims had a repution for being hardworking, useful members of society instead of that of lazy welfare recipient with out-of-control criminal children. OR if there were not so many muslims living in the west who find it incredibly hard to just condomn IS outright, instead of immediately trying to blame Israel, the USA - or worse: state they support the ideals of IS, if not the methods.

What muslims need is something positive to show for themselves to balance the bad.

[The Romulan Republic]

Statistics are not universally reliable. In any case, even if Pew is trustworthy, that does not invalidate my other points.

And when you say "Islam... needs to be handled harshly...", what does that mean? I presume it means handling Muslim people harshly. In which case, at best, you're arguing for discrimination. The only question is where on the spectrum you fall from "typical moderate conservative" to "Nazi".

Putting their religion into the dustbin of history and finding a more appropriate alternative. Those that resist that change belong in the same dustbin.

People have rights, including life, liberty, and justice. They do not belong in "...the dustbin of history...", and that statement could be taken as implicitly advocating mass murder.

[Kubra]

>I use objective data and ignore everything else only when it suits me, when objective data doesn't suit me I use anecdotal evidence!

We're all guilty of this at one point or another, but no one is so cavalier about it as you
It's quite obvious you don't care for stats in the first place, you just want formulations you can fire from the barrel of a gun.

The barrel of a gun does wonders for making otherwise difficult to address problems into "addressed" problems. Interpret that as you will.

careful I served over 300 tours of duty as a navy SEAL

[The Romulan Republic]

Its hard to have good PR when people like ISIS tend to get the headlines and bigots are doing everything they can to portray such monsters as typical of Muslims.

Oh, that would not be a problem whatsoever if muslims had a repution for being hardworking, useful members of society instead of that of lazy welfare recipient with out-of-control criminal children.

If their is such a perception of Muslims, I'm sure it exists at least partly because people like you have worked very hard to create such a reputation for them.

Nice trick- slander and stereotype, then use the slander and stereotyping to justify your bigotry. The circular thinking of a cowardly, dishonest bigot.

OR if there were not so many muslims living in the west who find it incredibly hard to just condomn IS outright, instead of immediately trying to blame Israel, the USA - or worse: state they support the ideals of IS, if not the methods.

Condemning all Muslims for the actions of some is stereotyping and wrong.

What muslims need is something positive to show for themselves to balance the bad.

Give me ten minutes on Google.

[Kubra]

Its hard to have good PR when people like ISIS tend to get the headlines and bigots are doing everything they can to portray such monsters as typical of Muslims.

Oh, that would not be a problem whatsoever if muslims had a repution for being hardworking, useful members of society instead of that of lazy welfare recipient with out-of-control criminal children. OR if there were not so many muslims living in the west who find it incredibly hard to just condomn IS outright, instead of immediately trying to blame Israel, the USA - or worse: state they support the ideals of IS, if not the methods.

What muslims need is something positive to show for themselves to balance the bad.

kurds are muslim
everybody but the turks likes the kurds these days

[The Romulan Republic]

Since The Alma Mater said "What muslims need is something positive to show for themselves to balance the bad.", I have decided to post this:

So, noteworthy contributions by Muslims:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/01/ ... nventions/
http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign ... hal-empire

Anyone else who wishes to add to the list, feel free to do so. I may do so myself.

I don't expect it to change the minds of bigots because bigots are not known for their reasoning or open-mindedness and if they were actually interested in other points of view they could find this for themselves. But I wish to make their bigotry as obvious as possible.

And yes, I'm aware that this is old history, at least largely. But it does show that historically, Muslims are not inherently backward or incapable of great positive achievements. And I'll continue to look for more contemporary things, but unfortunately the news, of late, is focussed on horrible things when it comes to Muslims. Other than George Clooney's wife, I couldn't find much positive in recent news. That could, however, be indicative of the media's love for fear mongering and sensationalism as much as anything else.

See, good normal people living their lives don't tend to get much coverage unless something hideous happens to them.

[The Romulan Republic]

Oh, that would not be a problem whatsoever if muslims had a repution for being hardworking, useful members of society instead of that of lazy welfare recipient with out-of-control criminal children. OR if there were not so many muslims living in the west who find it incredibly hard to just condomn IS outright, instead of immediately trying to blame Israel, the USA - or worse: state they support the ideals of IS, if not the methods.

What muslims need is something positive to show for themselves to balance the bad.

kurds are muslim
everybody but the turks likes the kurds these days

I forgot about the Kurds. My sincere apologies. Mind you, I'm sure they have their share of problems, but at least they have been probably our most effective allies against ISIS. So we owe them for that, at least.

Though I would like to point out that, at least according to Wikipedia, the Kurds, while mostly Muslim, include quite a few faiths.

[The Romulan Republic]

Statistics are not universally reliable. In any case, even if Pew is trustworthy, that does not invalidate my other points.

And when you say "Islam... needs to be handled harshly...", what does that mean? I presume it means handling Muslim people harshly. In which case, at best, you're arguing for discrimination. The only question is where on the spectrum you fall from "typical moderate conservative" to "Nazi".

Putting their religion into the dustbin of history and finding a more appropriate alternative. Those that resist that change belong in the same dustbin.

>I use objective data and ignore everything else only when it suits me, when objective data doesn't suit me I use anecdotal evidence!

We're all guilty of this at one point or another, but no one is so cavalier about it as you
It's quite obvious you don't care for stats in the first place, you just want formulations you can fire from the barrel of a gun.

The barrel of a gun does wonders for making otherwise difficult to address problems into "addressed" problems. Interpret that as you will.

I would interpret it as either a thinly veiled incitement of violence against Muslims, a thinly veiled threat to another poster, or both.

[Ardoki]

I'm an atheist.

I don't like Islam, as it is a superstitious story.

[Ardoki]

dude if you're considering converting to a religion purely for community that's almost as bad as dudes joining sunni militia's for kicks and figuring out the qur'an on the plane
If you're gonna do something ridiculous like that in response to stress recite Nechayev's catechism's and fancy yourself the second coming of Ravachol, or go primmo. You won't have to subscribe to a worldview you don't actually hold, and with the latter you can have all the imagined community you want.

It's not purely the community. I rather highly respect many of the ideals of Islam. Much of its ethical foundation is appealing. The theology is the only issue I greatly differ on, but even still I have a strong attraction to it. No, just considering the possibility of converting to a certain faith is in no way the same as joining radical militias.

So you support crimes against humanity? The killing of LGBTQ+ people? The killing of those who exercise their right to free speech (blasphemy is punishable by death)? Those who de-convert (apostasy is punishable by death)? Women who are not slaves to men?

[Alsheb]

It's not purely the community. I rather highly respect many of the ideals of Islam. Much of its ethical foundation is appealing. The theology is the only issue I greatly differ on, but even still I have a strong attraction to it. No, just considering the possibility of converting to a certain faith is in no way the same as joining radical militias.

So you support crimes against humanity? The killing of LGBTQ+ people? The killing of those who exercise their right to free speech (blasphemy is punishable by death)? Those who de-convert (apostasy is punishable by death)? Women who are not slaves to men?

Such penalties against apostasy and blasphemy exist in only a handful of countries, and the illegality of homosexuality is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. That women are treated ad second-rate is purely the effect of patriarchical society and institutionalised misoginy, and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran itself. What you do is simply take the actions of a handful of genocidal idiots and portray it as the message of Islam itself. That's as stupid as saying that Catholicism means burning witches and Judaism means killing Arabs.

[Ardoki]

So you support crimes against humanity? The killing of LGBTQ+ people? The killing of those who exercise their right to free speech (blasphemy is punishable by death)? Those who de-convert (apostasy is punishable by death)? Women who are not slaves to men?

Such penalties against apostasy and blasphemy exist in only a handful of countries, and the illegality of homosexuality is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. That women are treated ad second-rate is purely the effect of patriarchical society and institutionalised misoginy, and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran itself. What you do is simply take the actions of a handful of genocidal idiots and portray it as the message of Islam itself. That's as stupid as saying that Catholicism means burning witches and Judaism means killing Arabs.

Do you need me to quote portions of the Koran?

[Malay Raya]

So you support crimes against humanity? The killing of LGBTQ+ people? The killing of those who exercise their right to free speech (blasphemy is punishable by death)? Those who de-convert (apostasy is punishable by death)? Women who are not slaves to men?

Such penalties against apostasy and blasphemy exist in only a handful of countries, and the illegality of homosexuality is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. That women are treated ad second-rate is purely the effect of patriarchical society and institutionalised misoginy, and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran itself. What you do is simply take the actions of a handful of genocidal idiots and portray it as the message of Islam itself. That's as stupid as saying that Catholicism means burning witches and Judaism means killing Arabs.

Brother, homosexuality is mentioned in the Quran in several Ayah's regarding Prophet Lut's (English calls him Lot?) people. The Lut people were dominated by homosexuality lifestyle, the men with men and women with women. As far as my knowledge only Lut and his 2 daughters were the ones who were not homosexual among Lut's people. I recall having heard of stories from my Islam education teachers that even Prophet Lut himself didn't recognized himself as part of his people due to their activity.

His people even challenged Prophet Lut to show God's punishment against those who are homosexual after Lut did not stop telling them to stop their illegal actions before God's punishment arrives. Prophet Lut agreed to do just that, and raised his hands to pray.

Quran, Surat Al-Ankabut Ayah 28 - 35
- And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Indeed, you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds.

- Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings [every] evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful."

- He said, "My Lord, support me against the corrupting people."

- And when Our messengers came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, "Indeed, we will destroy the people of that Lot's city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers."

- [Abraham] said, "Indeed, within it is Lot." They said, "We are more knowing of who is within it. We will surely save him and his family, except his wife. She is to be of those who remain behind."

- And when Our messengers came to Lot, he was distressed for them and felt for them great discomfort. They said, "Fear not, nor grieve. Indeed, we will save you and your family, except your wife; she is to be of those who remain behind.

- Indeed, we will bring down on the people of this city punishment from the sky because they have been defiantly disobedient."

- And We have certainly left of it a sign as clear evidence for a people who use reason.

[The Romulan Republic]

Following up on my previous posting about the positive contributions of Muslims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mu ... _laureates

Yes, its from Wikipedia, but there is a list of references.

And of course the link doesn't work.

Well, just go to Wikipedia and search for Muslim Nobel Laureates.

Update-The link works now.

[Ardoki]

Such penalties against apostasy and blasphemy exist in only a handful of countries, and the illegality of homosexuality is nowhere mentioned in the Quran. That women are treated ad second-rate is purely the effect of patriarchical society and institutionalised misoginy, and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran itself. What you do is simply take the actions of a handful of genocidal idiots and portray it as the message of Islam itself. That's as stupid as saying that Catholicism means burning witches and Judaism means killing Arabs.

Brother, homosexuality is mentioned in the Quran in several Ayah's regarding Prophet Lut's (English calls him Lot?) people. The Lut people were dominated by homosexuality lifestyle, the men with men and women with women. As far as my knowledge only Lut and his 2 daughters were the ones who were not homosexual among Lut's people. I recall having heard of stories from my Islam education teachers that even Prophet Lut himself didn't recognized himself as part of his people due to their activity.

His people even challenged Prophet Lut to show God's punishment against those who are homosexual after Lut did not stop telling them to stop their illegal actions before God's punishment arrives. Prophet Lut agreed to do just that, and raised his hands to pray.

Quran, Surat Al-Ankabut Ayah 28 - 35
- And [mention] Lot, when he said to his people, "Indeed, you commit such immorality as no one has preceded you with from among the worlds.

- Indeed, you approach men and obstruct the road and commit in your meetings [every] evil." And the answer of his people was not but they said, "Bring us the punishment of Allah , if you should be of the truthful."

- He said, "My Lord, support me against the corrupting people."

- And when Our messengers came to Abraham with the good tidings, they said, "Indeed, we will destroy the people of that Lot's city. Indeed, its people have been wrongdoers."

- [Abraham] said, "Indeed, within it is Lot." They said, "We are more knowing of who is within it. We will surely save him and his family, except his wife. She is to be of those who remain behind."

- And when Our messengers came to Lot, he was distressed for them and felt for them great discomfort. They said, "Fear not, nor grieve. Indeed, we will save you and your family, except your wife; she is to be of those who remain behind.

- Indeed, we will bring down on the people of this city punishment from the sky because they have been defiantly disobedient."

- And We have certainly left of it a sign as clear evidence for a people who use reason.

So you support 'god's punishment' against the 'corrupting people' (aka bisexuals and homosexuals)?

[Ardoki]

Following up on my previous posting about the positive contributions of Muslims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Mu ... _laureates

Yes, its from Wikipedia, but there is a list of references.

And of course the link doesn't work.

Well, just go to Wikipedia and search for Muslim Nobel Laureates.

Update-The link works now.

There are far more Jewish Nobel Prize Laureates.

11 Muslims versus 193 Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Jewish_Nobel_laureates