Atheism and Misogyny

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

I'm sorry, but you can't be "not anti-feminist" and support women getting raped (i.e. the Amazing Atheist)

Now when has he ever done that?

"Yeah. Well, you deserved it. So, fuck you. I hope it happens again soon. I’m tired of being treated like shit by you mean little cunts and then you using your rpae as an excuse. Fuck you. I think we should give teh guy who raped you a medal. I hope you fucking drown in rape semen, you ugly, mean-spirited cow. Actually, I don’t believe you were ever raped! What man would be tasteless enough to stick his dick into a human cesspool like you? Nice gif of a turd going into my mouth. Is that kind of like the way that rapists dick went in your pussy? Or did he use your asshole? Or was it both? Maybe you should think about it really hard for the next few hours. Relive it as much as possible. You know? Try to recall: was it my pussy or my ass?"
Source

[Geilinor]

It's always the famous people who make the rest of us look bad.

Ban famous people.

This^. Famous people have made every group on the planet look bad at some time or other.

[Tlaceceyaya]

No, Dawkins is famous for writing The Selfish Gene, coming up with the idea of "memes," and trying to popularize atheism.

The "elevator incident"...

1. We are speaking of what is essentially a public area (late night at a con = people are up, about, and around).
2. The proposition was not even rude; nor is it even clear that the man was actually sexually interested in Watson. In particular, he even reportedly included, in his invitation, a request of "don't take this the wrong way." So why did she feel sexualized? Because he was a man. That's it.
3. You are not actually trapped while in a working elevator. You can get off at any time. Not to mention pressing the alarm button.

It would be highly unreasonable for Watson to feel threatened. The words Watson actually used were "uncomfortable," "creeped out," and, of course, the biggie, "sexualized." That said, we are not necessarily reasonable, and our feelings are not always reasonable.

However, Watson took things a step further. Watson asserted a normative statement, along the lines of: "MEN! THOU SHALT NOT ASK WOMEN TO HAVE COFFEE WITH THEE WHILE ELEVATING!" She described this as a grievous sin. She said it was a sign of the severity of the problem with the atheist community. This was, in other words, not at all reasonable as a reaction. So she not only made a mountain out of a molehill; but she built the molehill in the first place.

By all indications, the man had done nothing that could be reasonably construed as threatening, rude, or demeaning. From this, she builds a great sense of entitled discomfort: A man! That she didn't want to have sex with! Asking her for coffee and conversation! The awkwardness! That's the molehill. And then from that, she built a mountain - dedicating YouTube videos and blog posts to this questionable molehill and arguing that it demonstrated a very serious problem in the whole community. That's the argument from anecdote, building that artificial molehill into a mountain.

You know what, I'm very glad you don't have to live life as a woman. Your head might actually explode once you realized that being followed into an elevator at four am and asked to "have coffee" in a private hotel room after leaving a public place that was serving coffee IS FUCKING SCARY. And all she fucking said is "guys, don't do that." Holy shit, how DARE she advise YOU not to be creepy!How DARE she feel CONCERN for the safety of other women! It is fucking reasonable to be scared in that situation and you simply do not understand what women have to live with every fucking day.

But in any case you seem to be under the impression that Dawkins was the one asking for coffee. Negative. He basically told her that she had no right to complain because she wasn't getting her genitals sliced open. Basic sexism 101.

1: Do you just automatically assume that all men are evil monsters who want to kill you or something?
2: What he said was no different than what is often said about how people in developed countries have no right to complain about things when horrible shit is going on in other places.

[The Rich Port]

It's always the famous people who make the rest of us look bad.

Ban famous people.

This^. Famous people have made every group on the planet look bad at some time or other.

People from Jersey, Puerto Ricans, Norwegian Death Metal musicians, South Americans, and Equestrians.

I'm looking at you, Rarity, you slut.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

I frankly don't care about Dawkin's misogyny.

I don't go to the guy for tips on how to talk to women or on how to be a good feminist; I go to the guy on his philosophy of atheism.

Anybody who buys EVERYTHING he says is just gullible and disgracing the name of atheists everywhere.

We're supposed to be fucking smarter than the theists in most respects, not dumber in some.

I agree as a member of the Atheist Übermensch.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

You know what, I'm very glad you don't have to live life as a woman. Your head might actually explode once you realized that being followed into an elevator at four am and asked to "have coffee" in a private hotel room after leaving a public place that was serving coffee IS FUCKING SCARY. And all she fucking said is "guys, don't do that." Holy shit, how DARE she advise YOU not to be creepy!How DARE she feel CONCERN for the safety of other women! It is fucking reasonable to be scared in that situation and you simply do not understand what women have to live with every fucking day.

But in any case you seem to be under the impression that Dawkins was the one asking for coffee. Negative. He basically told her that she had no right to complain because she wasn't getting her genitals sliced open. Basic sexism 101.

1: Do you just automatically assume that all men are evil monsters who want to kill you or something?
2: What he said was no different than what is often said about how people in developed countries have no right to complain about things when horrible shit is going on in other places.

1. No, but at four am, when we are leaving a place that is serving coffee but he asks to go to a private place for coffee, and he follows me from the bar to the elevator, it's fucking creepy.
2. And that makes it not wrong? That makes it not sexist? "Mom, everyone else is doing it!"

[Tlaceceyaya]

Now when has he ever done that?

"Yeah. Well, you deserved it. So, fuck you. I hope it happens again soon. I’m tired of being treated like shit by you mean little cunts and then you using your rpae as an excuse. Fuck you. I think we should give teh guy who raped you a medal. I hope you fucking drown in rape semen, you ugly, mean-spirited cow. Actually, I don’t believe you were ever raped! What man would be tasteless enough to stick his dick into a human cesspool like you? Nice gif of a turd going into my mouth. Is that kind of like the way that rapists dick went in your pussy? Or did he use your asshole? Or was it both? Maybe you should think about it really hard for the next few hours. Relive it as much as possible. You know? Try to recall: was it my pussy or my ass?"
Source

A rather rude attempt to disprove traumatic experiences being triggered by being reminded of them, by saying that a woman should be raped (Note: in the very source you provided, apparently just as a rude method of argument), is "supporting women getting raped"?

[The Rich Port]

I frankly don't care about Dawkin's misogyny.

I don't go to the guy for tips on how to talk to women or on how to be a good feminist; I go to the guy on his philosophy of atheism.

Anybody who buys EVERYTHING he says is just gullible and disgracing the name of atheists everywhere.

We're supposed to be fucking smarter than the theists in most respects, not dumber in some.

I agree as a member of the Atheist Übermensch.

SIEG HEIL!

GESUNDHEIT!

MEIN TIEL!

[Vazdania]

Now, is it just me, or is the atheist "movement" associating itself more and more with anti-feminism? Three popular figureheads of the movement, Bill Maher, Dawkins, Amazing Atheist, have all expressed misogynist attitudes. Has anyone else noticed this trend amongst anti-theists? Is atheism being appropriated for male empowerment?

Input, please.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean the anti-theist movement, which is unfortunately labeled as the "atheist" movement by the mainstream, and even anti-theists themselves.

of course it is.

[The Rich Port]

Now, is it just me, or is the atheist "movement" associating itself more and more with anti-feminism? Three popular figureheads of the movement, Bill Maher, Dawkins, Amazing Atheist, have all expressed misogynist attitudes. Has anyone else noticed this trend amongst anti-theists? Is atheism being appropriated for male empowerment?

Input, please.

EDIT: To clarify, I mean the anti-theist movement, which is unfortunately labeled as the "atheist" movement by the mainstream, and even anti-theists themselves.

of course it is.

... Of course what is?

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

"Yeah. Well, you deserved it. So, fuck you. I hope it happens again soon. I’m tired of being treated like shit by you mean little cunts and then you using your rpae as an excuse. Fuck you. I think we should give teh guy who raped you a medal. I hope you fucking drown in rape semen, you ugly, mean-spirited cow. Actually, I don’t believe you were ever raped! What man would be tasteless enough to stick his dick into a human cesspool like you? Nice gif of a turd going into my mouth. Is that kind of like the way that rapists dick went in your pussy? Or did he use your asshole? Or was it both? Maybe you should think about it really hard for the next few hours. Relive it as much as possible. You know? Try to recall: was it my pussy or my ass?"
Source

A rather rude attempt to disprove traumatic experiences being triggered by being reminded of them, by saying that a woman should be raped (Note: in the very source you provided, apparently just as a rude method of argument), is "supporting women getting raped"?

Oh my god, you really think he was trying to disprove triggering?

[Imperializt Russia]

"Yeah. Well, you deserved it. So, fuck you. I hope it happens again soon. I’m tired of being treated like shit by you mean little cunts and then you using your rpae as an excuse. Fuck you. I think we should give teh guy who raped you a medal. I hope you fucking drown in rape semen, you ugly, mean-spirited cow. Actually, I don’t believe you were ever raped! What man would be tasteless enough to stick his dick into a human cesspool like you? Nice gif of a turd going into my mouth. Is that kind of like the way that rapists dick went in your pussy? Or did he use your asshole? Or was it both? Maybe you should think about it really hard for the next few hours. Relive it as much as possible. You know? Try to recall: was it my pussy or my ass?"
Source

A rather rude attempt to disprove traumatic experiences being triggered by being reminded of them, by saying that a woman should be raped (Note: in the very source you provided, apparently just as a rude method of argument), is "supporting women getting raped"?

Did you not read the other posts he made?

[Tlaceceyaya]

A rather rude attempt to disprove traumatic experiences being triggered by being reminded of them, by saying that a woman should be raped (Note: in the very source you provided, apparently just as a rude method of argument), is "supporting women getting raped"?

Oh my god, you really think he was trying to disprove triggering?

Yes. Because of the context. I read the other posts, and they support that idea.
Is it bad that I don't automatically assume everyone has evil intentions and that they're lying about their reasons for doing things?

[Tahar Joblis]

No, Dawkins is famous for writing The Selfish Gene, coming up with the idea of "memes," and trying to popularize atheism.

The "elevator incident"...

1. We are speaking of what is essentially a public area (late night at a con = people are up, about, and around).
2. The proposition was not even rude; nor is it even clear that the man was actually sexually interested in Watson. In particular, he even reportedly included, in his invitation, a request of "don't take this the wrong way." So why did she feel sexualized? Because he was a man. That's it.
3. You are not actually trapped while in a working elevator. You can get off at any time. Not to mention pressing the alarm button.

It would be highly unreasonable for Watson to feel threatened. The words Watson actually used were "uncomfortable," "creeped out," and, of course, the biggie, "sexualized." That said, we are not necessarily reasonable, and our feelings are not always reasonable.

However, Watson took things a step further. Watson asserted a normative statement, along the lines of: "MEN! THOU SHALT NOT ASK WOMEN TO HAVE COFFEE WITH THEE WHILE ELEVATING!" She described this as a grievous sin. She said it was a sign of the severity of the problem with the atheist community. This was, in other words, not at all reasonable as a reaction. So she not only made a mountain out of a molehill; but she built the molehill in the first place.

By all indications, the man had done nothing that could be reasonably construed as threatening, rude, or demeaning. From this, she builds a great sense of entitled discomfort: A man! That she didn't want to have sex with! Asking her for coffee and conversation! The awkwardness! That's the molehill. And then from that, she built a mountain - dedicating YouTube videos and blog posts to this questionable molehill and arguing that it demonstrated a very serious problem in the whole community. That's the argument from anecdote, building that artificial molehill into a mountain.

When I said about what he is "famous for" I was talking purely in context of the feminism issue.
On the elevator issue, I agree that Watson took it too far. Whilst I have never heard the "dont take this the wrong way" part,

I was just listening to the original YouTube video. It's right in the account she makes of it, which is pretty much the entire story that we've had, since AFAIK nobody stepped up to confess to being Mr. Elevator Man. All we know is that they had been talking previously and had been having a lively conversation some time prior to getting on the elevator, continued their conversation on the elevator, etc.

Dawkins could have been a lot more responsible to the delicate issue rather than his "letter to Muslima" which caused genuine suprise when he admitted the letter came from him.
It is undeniable that Watson took it to a monumentally stupid point. Commenting on a rebuff of the Muslima letter (which there is a lot to complain in) and leaving it at that would have been fine, but that doesnt excuse Dawkins behaviour in the matter either.

I say this as a fan of Dawkins who beleives he has done much to raise the modern debate in the public eye and his admirable respect for scientific skepticism.

Well, he could have been delicate about it, but then nothing would have happened at all. Much of the the initial blowback against Watson in the wake of the "elevator" story came in large part from other women. Dawkins' entry into the fray did what you're saying Dawkins has done in general: It put it in the public eye.

But calling out Watson's bullshit complaint as bullshit is a lot like calling out religion as bullshit: You're going to get a lot of assholes jumping on you from the other direction. Fanatics motivated by ideology who have the majority; if not the majority of actual numbers, at least a majority of airtime. I'm not saying Dawkins made a good decision on how to handle it; he seems to have lost the PR fight in that episode.

See all the people in this thread who think Dawkins is a misogynist because of that incident - which shows absolutely no evidence of misogyny on Dawkins' part? See, for that matter, the OP, who smeared Dawkins as misogynist without any evidence at all? Dawkins is guilty of being anti-postmodernist, anti-bullshit, and anti-diplomatic about it, but none of those things is anti-woman.

[Llamalandia]

Now when has he ever done that?

"Yeah. Well, you deserved it. So, fuck you. I hope it happens again soon. I’m tired of being treated like shit by you mean little cunts and then you using your rpae as an excuse. Fuck you. I think we should give teh guy who raped you a medal. I hope you fucking drown in rape semen, you ugly, mean-spirited cow. Actually, I don’t believe you were ever raped! What man would be tasteless enough to stick his dick into a human cesspool like you? Nice gif of a turd going into my mouth. Is that kind of like the way that rapists dick went in your pussy? Or did he use your asshole? Or was it both? Maybe you should think about it really hard for the next few hours. Relive it as much as possible. You know? Try to recall: was it my pussy or my ass?"
Source

I think the question then becomes would he say the same thing to a male rape victim (or whatever is analogous to what he said here) or not. If no then yeah it's pretty misogynistic if yes then he just hates rape victims apparently.

[Szkvara]

Honestly I see no need for the feminist movement in America, during the time I was in America everyone seemed pretty equal, if you want to make a difference, move to Africa or the Middle East. I've seen and heard much of what all mentioned have said on feminism, their all for equality.

[Imperializt Russia]

Honestly I see no need for the feminist movement in America, during the time I was in America everyone seemed pretty equal, if you want to make a difference, move to Africa or the Middle East. I've seen and heard much of what all mentioned have said on feminism, their all for equality.

Feminism is a western concept and thus will not work in the decidedly non-western societies of Africa or the Middle East. Yet.
So let's go make it work in the west first, hmm?

[Mistelemr]

:ugeek:

To my own personal dismay I've notices this a lot in the atheist community. Personally, I think the three you mentioned aren't "truly" anti-feminist, but have unfortunately misconstrued feminism as something Misandrist (which in my view is totally untrue).

It would seem that the vocal proponents of Atheism, ran into the vocal proponents of Misandry somewhere along the line and their views of feminism suddenly shifted. If you watch any of the videos where those three are bashing feminism, you'll notice that they only do so out of the ignorant belief that feminism is now Misandrist, rather than working for equal rights (as it still is).

I'm sorry, but you can't be "not anti-feminist" and support women getting raped (i.e. the Amazing Atheist)

Source?

[Imperializt Russia]

I'm sorry, but you can't be "not anti-feminist" and support women getting raped (i.e. the Amazing Atheist)

Source?

All over this page, all over last page.

[Torcularis Septentrionalis]

Honestly I see no need for the feminist movement in America, during the time I was in America everyone seemed pretty equal, if you want to make a difference, move to Africa or the Middle East. I've seen and heard much of what all mentioned have said on feminism, their all for equality.

Feminism is also working on:
Domestic violence
The wage gap between men and women
reproductive rights issues (because republicans keep trying to take away our right to birth control, abortion, and the like)
The systematic downplaying of girls' ability to preform well in academic fields like math and science
rape
and about a thousand other things.
Not to mention that any decent feminist is also going to be working the fields of LGBT rights and the empowerment and rights of POC.

[Farnhamia]

Honestly I see no need for the feminist movement in America, during the time I was in America everyone seemed pretty equal, if you want to make a difference, move to Africa or the Middle East. I've seen and heard much of what all mentioned have said on feminism, their all for equality.

And how long were you here? 20, 30 years? What did you work at and more importantly, are you male or female?

[Tahar Joblis]

You know what, I'm very glad you don't have to live life as a woman. Your head might actually explode once you realized that being followed into an elevator at four am and asked to "have coffee" in a private hotel room after leaving a public place that was serving coffee IS FUCKING SCARY.

Your head might explode if you realized that at a major convention, at 4 am, there are still people everywhere. You will run into them in the hallways. You will run into them in the stairs. You will run into them in the elevator. And you will use the same elevator as the people that you were just at the bar talking with, because there's one working elevator and everybody is staying at that hotel and the two of you waited for four minutes for the elevator to show up.

And if you want off the elevator, you push the damn button that makes the doors open on the next floor. In seconds.

If you feel threatened in those circumstances, you are being paranoid. It is highly unreasonable to feel threatened. Your legitimate case for caution extends so far as deciding to turn down the offer.

And all she fucking said is "guys, don't do that." Holy shit, how DARE she advise YOU not to be creepy!How DARE she feel CONCERN for the safety of other women! It is fucking reasonable to be scared in that situation and you simply do not understand what women have to live with every fucking day.

The only thing triggering her feeling of "creepy" is:

• She thought he was maybe interested in her sexually.
• She didn't find him sexually appealing.

There isn't even any indication she actually felt threatened. She doesn't use the word in her original description.

What's being attacked here is male sexuality. And it's being attacked through the presumption of male hypersexuality. She said "Guys, don't do that," when "that" was a perfectly ordinary and not even rude behavior.

But in any case you seem to be under the impression that Dawkins was the one asking for coffee. Negative. He basically told her that she had no right to complain because she wasn't getting her genitals sliced open. Basic sexism 101.

He told her that she was blowing the thing out of proportion.

Which she was. She was making the claim that this sort of behavior constituted a significant oppression of womankind. She went far beyond expressing her feelings; she condemned the skeptic community for being the sort of community in which men ask women to have coffee. Her complaint was bullshit. She had the right to complain to the degree that she has a right to free speech. Griping is a time-honored tradition.

So is calling bullshit on bullshit. Her complaint was bullshit, her argument that she built off that anecdote was bullshit. Dawkins was being rude and sarcastic, yes; but sexist, no.

[Des-Bal]

Does "pro-feminist" require having never said something mean about a woman? Looking at the "misogynist" things said by Bill Maher in particular it appears that he's just a dick. He is mean to people, directing his dickery towards Sarah Palin isn't misogynist.

[Farnhamia]

Does "pro-feminist" require having never said something mean about a woman? Looking at the "misogynist" things said by Bill Maher in particular it appears that he's just a dick. He is mean to people, directing his dickery towards Sarah Palin isn't misogynist.

The problem with Maher is, he thinks he's funny. He's not.

[The Rich Port]

Does "pro-feminist" require having never said something mean about a woman? Looking at the "misogynist" things said by Bill Maher in particular it appears that he's just a dick. He is mean to people, directing his dickery towards Sarah Palin isn't misogynist.

The problem with Maher is, he thinks he's funny. He's not.

He's funny... Sometimes.

Rarely.

He needs new writers and a new format.