NATION

PASSWORD

The Catholic Church: An Organisation of Evil

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Was the Catholic Church a predominantly negative influence on the world?

Yes, it restricted scientific progress and was responsible for the persecution of thousands.
109
34%
To some extent: it was also significantly positive.
150
46%
No, the Catholic Church was wholly just and right in what it did.
33
10%
Cardinal Fang, fetch... The Comfy Chair!
28
9%
loldunno
4
1%
 
Total votes : 324

User avatar
Nationalist State of Knox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10293
Founded: Feb 22, 2012
Ex-Nation

The Catholic Church: An Organisation of Evil

Postby Nationalist State of Knox » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:07 am

Throughout its existence, the Catholic Church has been a major organisation that provides a doctrine for millions of Catholics around the world. It, of course, constitutes only one particular sect of Christianity, with Protestantism being the alternate sect. Due to Catholicism's high level of historical and contemporary influence, it is, as a consequence, is immensely popular. Indeed, the world contains approximately 1.196 billion Catholics.

Despite its popularity, I am of the belief that its existence has not been wholly positive; indeed, it has been significantly negative. This much can be learned by examining the history of the Catholic Church, through various events and organisations within the Church itself, which have indeed been responsible for the oppression and deaths of many. I shall spend the remainder of the argument attempting to prove this to you. Note that I shall not cover the entirety of this topic area, only the most notable examples.

Also, it may be worthy to note that I was a practising Catholic for over 10 years, having been baptised as one and received Holy Communion, and thus I have experienced the Church first-hand.



The Crusades

The Crusades are perhaps the most famous (and most commonly referred to) example of the Catholic Church's "evil". The First Crusade (named as such for being the first in a series of eight crusades) began primarily because of the Islamic oppression of Christians in the Middle East (subsequent to the conquest of Jerusalem by the Seljuq Turks instead of the initial Islamic forces that conquered it in 637 A.D.), which involved acts such as the desecration of sacred places (indeed, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed in 1009 A.D. and eventually rebuilt, but still fell victim to Islamic attacks).

A request for help from Alexios I (Byzantine Emperor) and the resulting Council of Clermont was enough to set the First Crusade in motion. A series of interesting, albeit irrelevant, events occurred which culminated in the Prince's Crusade in August 1096. The Crusaders swept across Seljuq territory, capturing various strategic points such as Nicaea and Antioch (the Muslim inhabitants being massacred after the successful Crusader Siege). The most important part, however, is the siege of Jerusalem (or more importantly the aftermath). After the successful assault on the Northern Wall, the crusaders finally entered the city, and a bloodbath ensued.

The actual number of deaths from the Crusader massacre of Muslims is unknown, although it is safe to estimate a number around 10,000 (one Arab historian even estimates it at 70,000, although this is obviously exaggerated). My point? My point is that the Crusaders, under the belief that "God wills it", slaughtered thousands of "infidels" inside the walls of Jerusalem rather than demonstrating the mercy that their religion teaches. This wasn't the only instance of crusader brutality for the sake of the Church (for example the massacre of 3,000 Muslim prisoners at the hands of Richard "the Lionheart"), but it is certainly sufficient to demonstrate my point.

Suppression of Science: Copernicus and Galileo

Nicolaus Copernicus was the first man to challenge the Geocentric Model of the cosmos first established by Ptolemy with a new hypothesis: the Heliocentric Model, i.e., that the Earth orbits the Sun and not vice versa. His fully-formed hypothesis was first presented in his book "De revolutionibus orbium coelestium" or "On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres". It is worth noting that whilst Copernicus' heliocentric model was a great improvement on the Ptolemaic model, it still retained many of the Ptolemaic inaccuracies such as circular orbits.

However, Copernicus never was persecuted for his theories; he died shortly after the book was published, and never explicitly stated that the theories contained within his book were actually his beliefs. Galileo, however, was another matter. He took inspiration from Copernicus' "On the Revolutions" and wrote "Dialogo sopra i due massimi sistemi del mondo" or "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems", despite being ordered to not "hold, defend or teach" heliocentrism. After being published in 1632, the Pope ordered that the publication of any more copies of Galileo's "Dialogue" be stopped.

"Dialogue", whilst written initially to approach the two Ptolemaic and Copernican systems from an unbiased standpoint in order to present them equally (and thus not upset the church), was distinctly pro-heliocentrism, even going so far as to insult the believers of geocentrism. In other words, instead of presenting his work hypothetically, he phrased it as if he believed it.

Galileo's guilt had been decided by the Inquisition, the guilt that he now held for presenting views that didn't fit in with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. After delaying for as long as he could, he arrived at Rome and was tried by the Inquisition. Obviously found guilty, his sentence was that "Dialogue" was to be placed of the Index of Prohibited Books, he was placed under house arrest, he could be arrested by the Inquisition and ultimately, he had to admit that he was wrong and that the Church was right.

Galileo's "Dialogue" remained on the Index for a further 200 years, a time in which the incontrovertibly false geocentrism continued to be taught as a universally accepted principle. 200 years in which a scientific theory was suppressed because it contradicted religious dogma. And the theorist, who presented his beliefs, was persecuted and threatened with torture by the Inquisition. This, of course, leads me nicely onto my next point...

The Inquisition

Image


Image

Their chief weapon was surprise...

No, don't worry, I'm not going to turn this OP into a Monty Python sketch, and instead I shall be discussing "The Inquisition", which had several incarnations, beginning with the Medieval Inquisition, followed by the Spanish Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition (created at request by Pope Paul III because of the rising Jewish-convert immigration from Spain) and finally the Roman Inquisition.

Whilst being separate incarnations, the four implemented similar practices and held similar aims; namely, to combat the "heresy" that was becoming prevalent in Europe. The initial Inquisition was created by Pope Innocent III as a response to the heretical sects like "Catharism" in France, which in fact led to the Albigensian Crusade.

The Inquisition had the right to interrogate anybody, and employed several methods in order to identify heretics. The guilty would have to perform an "auto de fe", or Act of Faith. However, those who confessed would be given more lenient punishments such as pilgrimage, although those who were found guilty but refused to confess prior often received corporal punishment, and were occasionally burnt at the stake. Torture was sometimes employed in order to attain a confession, which may have involved waterboarding.

The Spanish Inquisition is perhaps the most famous of the separate Inquisitions. Their primary purpose was to prevent "conversos" (the aforementioned Jew-Christian converts) from reverting to their heretical Jewish practises. Forced conversion was frequently administered to Spain's Jewish population, prior to the mass expulsion of Jews from Spain. Muslim converts, also known as "Moriscos", were also persecuted.

As well as attempting to combat heretics and their practices, the Inquisition also censored and prohibited books because of their content, one of the most notable examples being Galileo's "Dialogue" which I mentioned earlier. Several of these "Indexes" were compiled, each containing their own set of prohibited books. Spain's slow transfer to "the Enlightenment" can perhaps be partially attributed to the Inquisition's hindrance of scientific progress.

The total death toll of the Inquisition is unknown, and a wholly accurate figure is nearly impossible to estimate; however, it is safe to assume that tens of thousands of people died at the hands of the Catholic Inquisition.

Medieval Corruption: Indulgences, Relics, and the Manipulation of the Masses

In 1215 Pope Innocent III issued a decree that prevented any "unauthorised" versions of the Bible. This, interestingly enough, encompassed all of the non-Latin translations of the texts. The purpose of this was simple: to prevent the common man from reading the Bible for themselves, as Latin was a language that only the well-educated could read, and thus the Church could teach whatever it wanted, really. A key teaching emphasised because of this was the idea of a "Hell" and "eternal damnation", which would serve to terrify the masses (thus ensuring Papal control) and indirectly provide funding for the Church.

The Church's funding was secured through various means, one of which being relics. The Church quickly began to teach about the holiness of certain artefacts and locations, and how one's penance could be earned by making a pilgrimage to the location of these sacred items. However, the Church took advantage of this and charged the pilgrims to visit these relics, despite the relics not actually being "true relics" and rather medieval forgeries. Some notable (and rather humorous) examples can seen be through Frederick I of Saxony, who possessed a "Piece of the Burning Bush" and a "Vial of Milk from the Breasts of the Virgin Mary" among 33 pieces of the True Cross.

Perhaps the most notorious concept of the Medieval Church was the idea of "Indulgences". These were essentially pieces of paper signed by the Pope or some religious authority within the church that promised a reduction of one's time spent in Purgatory. Purgatory, an exclusively Catholic concept, was the idea that one had to spend a certain number of years in a space between heaven and hell: in which one must receive a "purification" before they ascend.

Indeed, indulgences should shorten the amount of time one would spend in purgatory, and could be attained for yourself or your family members (usually deceased). The only way in which someone could attain one of these, of course, was by buying it from the Church. By promising a shorter time between purgatory and heaven (and in extreme cases bypassing purgatory altogether), the Church tightened its grip around the populace and their wealth, thus ensuring its dominance up until the Reformation Period.



To be honest, I've merely touched on the subject. I could go on about various areas such as the Witch-hunt and the Catholic Persecution of Jews, but I believe that my point has been sufficiently made.

The Catholic Church has dominated European history for several centuries through war, the suppression of science and alternative religious interpretations, and most of all, by threatening the masses by promoting ignorance, which in turn allows for the complete doctrinal control and manipulation of millions of Europeans.

Would the world have been better had the Church never existed? I can't say for sure; but hopefully, after reading this, you'll be able to see that the Catholic Church we see today was built on the principles of manipulation, ignorance, and oppression.
Last edited by Gilgamesh on Mon Aru 17, 2467 BC 10:56am, edited 1 time in total.
Call me Knox.
Biblical Authorship
God is Malevolent.
Bible Inaccuracies
Ifreann wrote:Knox: /ˈɡɪl.ɡə.mɛʃ/
Impeach Enlil, legalise dreaming, mortality is theft. GILGAMESH 2474 BC

User avatar
Orcoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4455
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Orcoa » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:11 am

The Church has done bad things in the past, that is not a unknown fact but there have been also ties with early universities, scientists, and the such during the Dark Ages and Medieval Period. Lets also not forget the many charitable missions it does around the world even to this day.

Remember Knox, not everything is black and white in this world. And if someone starts saying I'm supporting the Catholic Church, they are very wrong. I don't and never will but I want to point out just a few things before we go into full internet hate mode :lol:
Long Live The Wolf Emperor!
This is the song I sing to those who screw with me XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnFhnpEgKY
"this is the Internet: The place where religion goes to die." Crystalcliff Point

User avatar
Zottistan
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14853
Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zottistan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:12 am

It has great negative influence. It also has all the education, healthcare and welfare it gave. I'd say it leans more to the negative side, but it has its ups, too.

User avatar
Saruhan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8013
Founded: Feb 15, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Saruhan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:13 am

While I appreciate the sheer effort you went to, if I might make a point of correction:

The Spanish inquisition was created by and under the control of the King and Queen of Spain, not the church
Caninope wrote:The idea of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh reuniting is about as logical as the idea that Barack Obama will kill his wife, marry Ahmadinejad in a ceremony officiated by Mitt Romney during the 7th Inning Stretch of the Yankees-Red Sox game, and then the happy couple will then go challenge President Xi for the position of General Secretary of the CCP in a gladiatorial fight to the death involving roaches, slingshots, and hard candies.

User avatar
The Gaelic Kingdoms of Britain
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1058
Founded: Jan 02, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby The Gaelic Kingdoms of Britain » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:17 am

Eh, its complicated. It just got too political and lost sight of Christ's teachings, that's how I see it, anyway.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
--Thorin Oakenshield [J.R.R. Tolkien]
I am a true Scot
Alba gu bràth!

User avatar
Nationalist State of Knox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10293
Founded: Feb 22, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Nationalist State of Knox » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:17 am

Orcoa wrote:The Church has done bad things in the past, that is not a unknown fact but there have been also ties with early universities, scientists, and the such during the Dark Ages and Medieval Period. Lets also not forget the many charitable missions it does around the world even to this day.

Remember Knox, not everything is black and white in this world. And if someone starts saying I'm supporting the Catholic Church, they are very wrong. I don't and never will but I want to point out just a few things before we go into full internet hate mode :lol:

It's too late now. :p

Saruhan wrote:While I appreciate the sheer effort you went to, if I might make a point of correction:

The Spanish inquisition was created by and under the control of the King and Queen of Spain, not the church

The original Inquisition was created by the Papacy, they merely "introduced" the Inquisition to Spain.
Last edited by Gilgamesh on Mon Aru 17, 2467 BC 10:56am, edited 1 time in total.
Call me Knox.
Biblical Authorship
God is Malevolent.
Bible Inaccuracies
Ifreann wrote:Knox: /ˈɡɪl.ɡə.mɛʃ/
Impeach Enlil, legalise dreaming, mortality is theft. GILGAMESH 2474 BC

User avatar
Lancasteros
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 197
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Lancasteros » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:19 am

Nationalist State of Knox wrote:Throughout its existence, the Catholic Church has been a major organisation that provides a doctrine for millions of Catholics around the world. It, of course, constitutes only one particular sect of Christianity, with Protestantism being the alternate sect. Due to Catholicism's high level of historical and contemporary influence, it is, as a consequence, is immensely popular. Indeed, the world contains approximately 1.196 billion Catholics.

Despite its popularity, I am of the belief that its existence has not been wholly positive; indeed, it has been significantly negative. This much can be learned by examining the history of the Catholic Church, through various events and organisations within the Church itself, which have indeed been responsible for the oppression and deaths of many. I shall spend the remainder of the argument attempting to prove this to you. Note that I shall not cover the entirety of this topic area, only the most notable examples.

Also, it may be worthy to note that I was a practising Catholic for over 10 years, having been baptised as one and received Holy Communion, and thus I have experienced the Church first-hand.



The Crusades

The Crusades are perhaps the most famous (and most commonly referred to) example of the Catholic Church's "evil". The First Crusade (named as such for being the first in a series of eight crusades) began primarily because of the Islamic oppression of Christians in the Middle East (subsequent to the conquest of Jerusalem by the Seljuq Turks instead of the initial Islamic forces that conquered it in 637 A.D.), which involved acts such as the desecration of sacred places (indeed, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre was destroyed in 1009 A.D. and eventually rebuilt, but still fell victim to Islamic attacks).

A request for help from Alexios I (Byzantine Emperor) and the resulting Council of Clermont was enough to set the First Crusade in motion. A series of interesting, albeit irrelevant, events occurred which culminated in the Prince's Crusade in August 1096. The Crusaders swept across Seljuq territory, capturing various strategic points such as Nicaea and Antioch (the Muslim inhabitants being massacred after the successful Crusader Siege). The most important part, however, is the siege of Jerusalem (or more importantly the aftermath). After the successful assault on the Northern Wall, the crusaders finally entered the city, and a bloodbath ensued.

The actual number of deaths from the Crusader massacre of Muslims is unknown, although it is safe to estimate a number around 10,000 (one Arab historian even estimates it at 70,000, although this is obviously exaggerated). My point? My point is that the Crusaders, under the belief that "God wills it", slaughtered thousands of "infidels" inside the walls of Jerusalem rather than demonstrating the mercy that their religion teaches. This wasn't the only instance of crusader brutality for the sake of the Church (for example the massacre of 3,000 Muslim prisoners at the hands of Richard "the Lionheart"), but it is certainly sufficient to demonstrate my point.

Suppression of Science: Copernicus and Galileo

Nicolaus Copernicus was the first man to challenge the Geocentric Model of the cosmos first established by Ptolemy with a new hypothesis: the Heliocentric Model, i.e., that the Earth orbits the Sun and not vice versa. His fully-formed hypothesis was first presented in his book "De revolutionibus orbium coelestium" or "On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres". It is worth noting that whilst Copernicus' heliocentric model was a great improvement on the Ptolemaic model, it still retained many of the Ptolemaic inaccuracies such as circular orbits.

However, Copernicus never was persecuted for his theories; he died shortly after the book was published, and never explicitly stated that the theories contained within his book were actually his beliefs. Galileo, however, was another matter. He took inspiration from Copernicus' "On the Revolutions" and wrote "Dialogo sopra i due massimi sistemi del mondo" or "Dialogue Concerning the Two Chief World Systems", despite being ordered to not "hold, defend or teach" heliocentrism. After being published in 1632, the Pope ordered that the publication of any more copies of Galileo's "Dialogue" be stopped.

"Dialogue", whilst written initially to approach the two Ptolemaic and Copernican systems from an unbiased standpoint in order to present them equally (and thus not upset the church), was distinctly pro-heliocentrism, even going so far as to insult the believers of geocentrism. In other words, instead of presenting his work hypothetically, he phrased it as if he believed it.

Galileo's guilt had been decided by the Inquisition, the guilt that he now held for presenting views that didn't fit in with the doctrine of the Catholic Church. After delaying for as long as he could, he arrived at Rome and was tried by the Inquisition. Obviously found guilty, his sentence was that "Dialogue" was to be placed of the Index of Prohibited Books, he was placed under house arrest, he could be arrested by the Inquisition and ultimately, he had to admit that he was wrong and that the Church was right.

Galileo's "Dialogue" remained on the Index for a further 200 years, a time in which the incontrovertibly false geocentrism continued to be taught as a universally accepted principle. 200 years in which a scientific theory was suppressed because it contradicted religious dogma. And the theorist, who presented his beliefs, was persecuted and threatened with torture by the Inquisition. This, of course, leads me nicely onto my next point...

The Inquisition




Their chief weapon was surprise...

No, don't worry, I'm not going to turn this OP into a Monty Python sketch, and instead I shall be discussing "The Inquisition", which had several incarnations, beginning with the Medieval Inquisition, followed by the Spanish Inquisition, the Portuguese Inquisition (created at request by Pope Paul III because of the rising Jewish-convert immigration from Spain) and finally the Roman Inquisition.

Whilst being separate incarnations, the four implemented similar practices and held similar aims; namely, to combat the "heresy" that was becoming prevalent in Europe. The initial Inquisition was created by Pope Innocent III as a response to the heretical sects like "Catharism" in France, which in fact led to the Albigensian Crusade.

The Inquisition had the right to interrogate anybody, and employed several methods in order to identify heretics. The guilty would have to perform an "auto de fe", or Act of Faith. However, those who confessed would be given more lenient punishments such as pilgrimage, although those who were found guilty but refused to confess prior often received corporal punishment, and were occasionally burnt at the stake. Torture was sometimes employed in order to attain a confession, which may have involved waterboarding.

The Spanish Inquisition is perhaps the most famous of the separate Inquisitions. Their primary purpose was to prevent "conversos" (the aforementioned Jew-Christian converts) from reverting to their heretical Jewish practises. Forced conversion was frequently administered to Spain's Jewish population, prior to the mass expulsion of Jews from Spain. Muslim converts, also known as "Moriscos", were also persecuted.

As well as attempting to combat heretics and their practices, the Inquisition also censored and prohibited books because of their content, one of the most notable examples being Galileo's "Dialogue" which I mentioned earlier. Several of these "Indexes" were compiled, each containing their own set of prohibited books. Spain's slow transfer to "the Enlightenment" can perhaps be partially attributed to the Inquisition's hindrance of scientific progress.

The total death toll of the Inquisition is unknown, and a wholly accurate figure is nearly impossible to estimate; however, it is safe to assume that tens of thousands of people died at the hands of the Catholic Inquisition.

Medieval Corruption: Indulgences, Relics, and the Manipulation of the Masses

In 1215 Pope Innocent III issued a decree that prevented any "unauthorised" versions of the Bible. This, interestingly enough, encompassed all of the non-Latin translations of the texts. The purpose of this was simple: to prevent the common man from reading the Bible for themselves, as Latin was a language that only the well-educated could read, and thus the Church could teach whatever it wanted, really. A key teaching emphasised because of this was the idea of a "Hell" and "eternal damnation", which would serve to terrify the masses (thus ensuring Papal control) and indirectly provide funding for the Church.

The Church's funding was secured through various means, one of which being relics. The Church quickly began to teach about the holiness of certain artefacts and locations, and how one's penance could be earned by making a pilgrimage to the location of these sacred items. However, the Church took advantage of this and charged the pilgrims to visit these relics, despite the relics not actually being "true relics" and rather medieval forgeries. Some notable (and rather humorous) examples can seen be through Frederick I of Saxony, who possessed a "Piece of the Burning Bush" and a "Vial of Milk from the Breasts of the Virgin Mary" among 33 pieces of the True Cross.

Perhaps the most notorious concept of the Medieval Church was the idea of "Indulgences". These were essentially pieces of paper signed by the Pope or some religious authority within the church that promised a reduction of one's time spent in Purgatory. Purgatory, an exclusively Catholic concept, was the idea that one had to spend a certain number of years in a space between heaven and hell: in which one must receive a "purification" before they ascend.

Indeed, indulgences should shorten the amount of time one would spend in purgatory, and could be attained for yourself or your family members (usually deceased). The only way in which someone could attain one of these, of course, was by buying it from the Church. By promising a shorter time between purgatory and heaven (and in extreme cases bypassing purgatory altogether), the Church tightened its grip around the populace and their wealth, thus ensuring its dominance up until the Reformation Period.



To be honest, I've merely touched on the subject. I could go on about various areas such as the Witch-hunt and the Catholic Persecution of Jews, but I believe that my point has been sufficiently made.

The Catholic Church has dominated European history for several centuries through war, the suppression of science and alternative religious interpretations, and most of all, by threatening the masses by promoting ignorance, which in turn allows for the complete doctrinal control and manipulation of millions of Europeans.

Would the world have been better had the Church never existed? I can't say for sure; but hopefully, after reading this, you'll be able to see that the Catholic Church we see today was built on the principles of manipulation, ignorance, and oppression.


Humanity was capable of so much more. It wasn't Catholicism's fault but us the humans who twisted religion form a set of morals, to a political tool in which we still do today. What we need is to educate the new generation of the negative effects when religion is used for political use. We must also suppress any radical elements that aim to twist religion for their own gain. Thats just my opinion. Keep religion pure and good….and out of politics.

User avatar
Orcoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4455
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Orcoa » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:19 am

Nationalist State of Knox wrote:
Orcoa wrote:The Church has done bad things in the past, that is not a unknown fact but there have been also ties with early universities, scientists, and the such during the Dark Ages and Medieval Period. Lets also not forget the many charitable missions it does around the world even to this day.

Remember Knox, not everything is black and white in this world. And if someone starts saying I'm supporting the Catholic Church, they are very wrong. I don't and never will but I want to point out just a few things before we go into full internet hate mode :lol:

It's too late now. :p

Saruhan wrote:While I appreciate the sheer effort you went to, if I might make a point of correction:

The Spanish inquisition was created by and under the control of the King and Queen of Spain, not the church

The original Inquisition was created by the Papacy, they merely "introduced" the Inquisition to Spain.

See you got to also remember this as well. You thought the Papacy government was bad? Most of the Kings, Dukes, and Princes during that time were even worse by a mile. ;)
Last edited by Orcoa on Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Long Live The Wolf Emperor!
This is the song I sing to those who screw with me XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnFhnpEgKY
"this is the Internet: The place where religion goes to die." Crystalcliff Point

User avatar
Tyrants
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1626
Founded: Sep 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Tyrants » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:19 am

Saruhan wrote:While I appreciate the sheer effort you went to, if I might make a point of correction:

The Spanish inquisition was created by and under the control of the King and Queen of Spain, not the church


NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!
Ladies and gentlemen, the following contest is scheduled for 1 fall, and is a Dixieland match!

Trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble trouble....

User avatar
Saruhan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8013
Founded: Feb 15, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Saruhan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:20 am

Nationalist State of Knox wrote:
Saruhan wrote:While I appreciate the sheer effort you went to, if I might make a point of correction:

The Spanish inquisition was created by and under the control of the King and Queen of Spain, not the church

The original Inquisition was created by the Papacy, they merely "introduced" the Inquisition to Spain.

"In contrast to the previous inquisitions, it operated completely under royal Christian authority, though staffed by clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See"


I really don't see how this is the fault of the Church, seeing as it wasn't under it's control at all, and there wasn't an inquisition in Spain before this. Just Southern France and Germany if I believe
Caninope wrote:The idea of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh reuniting is about as logical as the idea that Barack Obama will kill his wife, marry Ahmadinejad in a ceremony officiated by Mitt Romney during the 7th Inning Stretch of the Yankees-Red Sox game, and then the happy couple will then go challenge President Xi for the position of General Secretary of the CCP in a gladiatorial fight to the death involving roaches, slingshots, and hard candies.

User avatar
Napkiraly
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37450
Founded: Aug 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Napkiraly » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:23 am

I wouldn't say it's evil. Rather a grey organisation that has done a lot of bad things but has also had some good contributions to humanity. Think dark grey.

User avatar
North Stradia
Minister
 
Posts: 2077
Founded: Jan 04, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby North Stradia » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:24 am

Without the Catholic Church, I would have a vacation home on Mars.
I am a Feudo-capitalist, egoist, and a supporter of plutocracy.
R.I.P. Sark, the last feudalist State in the world, born 933, died 2008
Economic Left/Right: +9.89
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: +8.12
Foreign Policy Non-Interventionist/Neocon: +5.88
Cultural Liberal/Conservative: +2.90

User avatar
Tmutarakhan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8319
Founded: Dec 06, 2007
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tmutarakhan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:24 am

Saruhan wrote:
Nationalist State of Knox wrote:
The original Inquisition was created by the Papacy, they merely "introduced" the Inquisition to Spain.

"In contrast to the previous inquisitions, it operated completely under royal Christian authority, though staffed by clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See"


I really don't see how this is the fault of the Church, seeing as it wasn't under it's control at all, and there wasn't an inquisition in Spain before this. Just Southern France and Germany if I believe

And in the Papal States, first and foremost.
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think, and a musical to those who sing.

I am the very model of a Nation States General,
I am a holy terror to apologists Confederal,
When called upon to source a line, I give citations textual,
And argue about Palestine, and marriage homosexual!


A KNIGHT ON KARINZISTAN'S SPECIAL LIST OF POOPHEADS!

User avatar
Saruhan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8013
Founded: Feb 15, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Saruhan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:25 am

North Stradia wrote:Without the Catholic Church, I would have a vacation home on Mars.

Unlikely, seeing as the monks were pretty much the only reason we have much of the books written before the Fall of Rome and during the Dark ages
Caninope wrote:The idea of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh reuniting is about as logical as the idea that Barack Obama will kill his wife, marry Ahmadinejad in a ceremony officiated by Mitt Romney during the 7th Inning Stretch of the Yankees-Red Sox game, and then the happy couple will then go challenge President Xi for the position of General Secretary of the CCP in a gladiatorial fight to the death involving roaches, slingshots, and hard candies.

User avatar
The Corparation
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33874
Founded: Aug 31, 2009
Corporate Police State

Postby The Corparation » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:26 am

North Stradia wrote:Without the Catholic Church, I would have a vacation home on Mars.

True Kennedy probably cancelled the Orion Project based on the Popes Orders. I should write a strongly worded letter to Darth Sideous...er...the Pope about this.
Nuclear Death Machines Here (Both Flying and Orbiting)
Orbital Freedom Machine Here
A Subsidiary company of Nightkill Enterprises Inc.Weekly words of wisdom: Nothing is more important than waifus.- Gallia-
Making the Nightmare End 2020 WARNING: This post contains chemicals known to the State of CA to cause cancer and birth defects or other reproductive harm.
Prop 65, CA Health & Safety
This Cell is intentionally blank.

User avatar
North Stradia
Minister
 
Posts: 2077
Founded: Jan 04, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby North Stradia » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:26 am

Saruhan wrote:
North Stradia wrote:Without the Catholic Church, I would have a vacation home on Mars.

Unlikely, seeing as the monks were pretty much the only reason we have much of the books written before the Fall of Rome and during the Dark ages

The Dark Ages, which existed because of religion.
I am a Feudo-capitalist, egoist, and a supporter of plutocracy.
R.I.P. Sark, the last feudalist State in the world, born 933, died 2008
Economic Left/Right: +9.89
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: +8.12
Foreign Policy Non-Interventionist/Neocon: +5.88
Cultural Liberal/Conservative: +2.90

User avatar
Lancasteros
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 197
Founded: Mar 30, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Lancasteros » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:28 am

Guys….its politics. The Vatican doesn't even believe what the bible says seeing as their pope is adorned with gifts and power. Therefore many religious leaders and followers are pretty much hypocrites

User avatar
Nationalist State of Knox
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10293
Founded: Feb 22, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Nationalist State of Knox » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:28 am

Lancasteros wrote:Humanity was capable of so much more. It wasn't Catholicism's fault but us the humans who twisted religion form a set of morals, to a political tool in which we still do today. What we need is to educate the new generation of the negative effects when religion is used for political use. We must also suppress any radical elements that aim to twist religion for their own gain. Thats just my opinion. Keep religion pure and good….and out of politics.

Which was what the Church failed to do. Also, please don't quote the OP.

Orcoa wrote:
Nationalist State of Knox wrote:It's too late now. :p


The original Inquisition was created by the Papacy, they merely "introduced" the Inquisition to Spain.

See you got to also remember this as well. You thought the Papacy government was bad? Most of the Kings, Dukes, and Princes during that time were even worse by a mile. ;)

It still doesn't justify the actions of the Church.

Saruhan wrote:
Nationalist State of Knox wrote:
The original Inquisition was created by the Papacy, they merely "introduced" the Inquisition to Spain.

"In contrast to the previous inquisitions, it operated completely under royal Christian authority, though staffed by clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See"


I really don't see how this is the fault of the Church, seeing as it wasn't under it's control at all, and there wasn't an inquisition in Spain before this. Just Southern France and Germany if I believe

The whole idea of an Inquisition in Spain was heavily influenced by the previous incarnation.

Also, whether it took place in Spain or not is irrelevant, the fact that the others were directly authorised by the Pope is the problem.
Last edited by Gilgamesh on Mon Aru 17, 2467 BC 10:56am, edited 1 time in total.
Call me Knox.
Biblical Authorship
God is Malevolent.
Bible Inaccuracies
Ifreann wrote:Knox: /ˈɡɪl.ɡə.mɛʃ/
Impeach Enlil, legalise dreaming, mortality is theft. GILGAMESH 2474 BC

User avatar
Napkiraly
Post Czar
 
Posts: 37450
Founded: Aug 02, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Napkiraly » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:29 am

North Stradia wrote:
Saruhan wrote:Unlikely, seeing as the monks were pretty much the only reason we have much of the books written before the Fall of Rome and during the Dark ages

The Dark Ages, which existed because of religion.

The collapse of the WRE caused the DA, not the Church.

User avatar
Tmutarakhan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8319
Founded: Dec 06, 2007
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tmutarakhan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:29 am

Orcoa wrote:
Nationalist State of Knox wrote:It's too late now. :p


The original Inquisition was created by the Papacy, they merely "introduced" the Inquisition to Spain.

See you got to also remember this as well. You thought the Papacy government was bad? Most of the Kings, Dukes, and Princes during that time were even worse by a mile. ;)

No, the Papal States were seriously fucked up, even by the standards of medieval times.
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, a comedy to those who think, and a musical to those who sing.

I am the very model of a Nation States General,
I am a holy terror to apologists Confederal,
When called upon to source a line, I give citations textual,
And argue about Palestine, and marriage homosexual!


A KNIGHT ON KARINZISTAN'S SPECIAL LIST OF POOPHEADS!

User avatar
North Stradia
Minister
 
Posts: 2077
Founded: Jan 04, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby North Stradia » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:30 am

Napkiraly wrote:
North Stradia wrote:The Dark Ages, which existed because of religion.

The collapse of the WRE caused the DA, not the Church.

Without religion, it wouldn't have lasted nearly as long.
I am a Feudo-capitalist, egoist, and a supporter of plutocracy.
R.I.P. Sark, the last feudalist State in the world, born 933, died 2008
Economic Left/Right: +9.89
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: +8.12
Foreign Policy Non-Interventionist/Neocon: +5.88
Cultural Liberal/Conservative: +2.90

User avatar
Xathranaar
Minister
 
Posts: 3384
Founded: Jul 25, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Xathranaar » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:30 am

I'm much more interested in the evil the church is perpetrating now.

Very few organizations were laudable in the Middle Ages.
My views summarized.
The Gospel According to Queen.
It is possible that some of my posts may not be completely serious.

User avatar
Saruhan
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8013
Founded: Feb 15, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Saruhan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:30 am

North Stradia wrote:
Saruhan wrote:Unlikely, seeing as the monks were pretty much the only reason we have much of the books written before the Fall of Rome and during the Dark ages

The Dark Ages, which existed because of religion.

Sure, religion. Not the hordes of German barbarians burning everything they could find. That had nothing to do with it. Right
Caninope wrote:The idea of Pakistan, India and Bangladesh reuniting is about as logical as the idea that Barack Obama will kill his wife, marry Ahmadinejad in a ceremony officiated by Mitt Romney during the 7th Inning Stretch of the Yankees-Red Sox game, and then the happy couple will then go challenge President Xi for the position of General Secretary of the CCP in a gladiatorial fight to the death involving roaches, slingshots, and hard candies.

User avatar
Orcoa
Senator
 
Posts: 4455
Founded: Jul 05, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Orcoa » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:30 am

Nationalist State of Knox wrote:
Lancasteros wrote:Humanity was capable of so much more. It wasn't Catholicism's fault but us the humans who twisted religion form a set of morals, to a political tool in which we still do today. What we need is to educate the new generation of the negative effects when religion is used for political use. We must also suppress any radical elements that aim to twist religion for their own gain. Thats just my opinion. Keep religion pure and good….and out of politics.

Which was what the Church failed to do. Also, please don't quote the OP.

Orcoa wrote:See you got to also remember this as well. You thought the Papacy government was bad? Most of the Kings, Dukes, and Princes during that time were even worse by a mile. ;)

It still doesn't justify the actions of the Church.

Saruhan wrote:"In contrast to the previous inquisitions, it operated completely under royal Christian authority, though staffed by clergy and orders, and independently of the Holy See"


I really don't see how this is the fault of the Church, seeing as it wasn't under it's control at all, and there wasn't an inquisition in Spain before this. Just Southern France and Germany if I believe

The whole idea of an Inquisition in Spain was heavily influenced by the previous incarnation.

Also, whether it took place in Spain or not is irrelevant, the fact that the others were directly authorised by the Pope is the problem.

Never said that justify their actions, I only wanted to bring out that little fact so we could have a bit of more insight on the subject at hand.
Long Live The Wolf Emperor!
This is the song I sing to those who screw with me XD

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXnFhnpEgKY
"this is the Internet: The place where religion goes to die." Crystalcliff Point

User avatar
Xanixi
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5376
Founded: Aug 04, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Xanixi » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:30 am

Well, that was a wonderful read. Very elaborate and reminded me of some of the topics I had once argued in a school debate (as well as taught me one that I could've used, but didn't).

Thanks for that, bro.
Grand Imperial Republic of Thedosia | Galactic Imperial Republic [FT]
DEFCON: [4]; Double Take
| Pop.: 508,191,116 | Area: 24.670.330 km2 | Demonym: Thedosian/Republic/Imperial |
| Military: 5,482,193 | GDP: US$32,842,135,458,524.96 | Lifespan: ~650 y/o |
Dr. Carl Sagan wrote:“They say astronomy is a humbling and character-building experience. There is perhaps no better demonstration of the folly of human conceits than this distant image of our tiny world. To me, it underscores our responsibility to deal more kindly with one another, and to preserve and cherish the pale blue dot, the only home we've ever known.”
Most Astounding Fact
#AupaAtleti #ContigoHastaElFinal
American and Spanish

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Alvecia, Bluelight-R006, Byzconia, Connori Pilgrims, Conserative Morality, Fartsniffage, Galloism, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], Ifreann, Kohingria, LiberNovusAmericae, Loben, Lowell Leber, Meadville, Neo-Routhengard, New Genoa, Novus America, Ors Might, Otira, Rio Cana, San Lumen, Sougra, The Grene Knyght, The Liberated Territories, The Two Jerseys, Uiiop, Underprison, Vectrova, Vetalia, Vizzytopia, Woodfiredpizzas, Yusseria

Advertisement

Remove ads