Explosions at Boston Marathon

[Gauthier]

O.K., conservatives, I'm going to ask you to put aside your hatred of Rachel Maddow to look at two of her segments tonight. Unlike CNN, which did a truly horrible job in covering this whole thing, NBC did an outstanding job. Maddow continued that streak in her show tonight:

In her opening segment, Maddow aired the transcript of the bedside arraignment of Dzhokhar Tsarnaev. Essentially, what happened is that the judge came to the hospital room where Tsarnaev is being held, convened her court, and arraigned the defendant. It's actually pretty impressive to a civics nut like me to hear the entire process from start to finish. Did Maddow have an agenda? Sure: To underscore her belief that the government made the right decision to try Tsarnaev in a civilian court, following the same legal procedure that we've been using here in America for 225 years. For me, it was a "Fuck, yeah, the system sure as Hell damned well does work" moment, and I think that's something a lot of us Americans need to hear.

In her second block, Maddow threw out a very weird and very speculative curve-ball that she admitted may be absolutely nothing: The possibility that the Boston Marathon bombings may be related to an unsolved 2011 triple homicide in Waltham, MA. There's already a known connection to the brutal September, 2011 murders of Erik Weissman, Raphael Teken, and Brendan Mess: The last of these three victims was a close friend of Tamerlan Tsarnaev. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev's deceased older brother. Maddow doesn't draw any conclusions, but there are intriguing suggestions in the juxtaposition of the two crimes: The three men were killed in a way that vaguely suggests that they were killed for dealing marijuana, but not by a vigilante and not a rival dealer. This happened at around the same time as Dzhokhar, who was something of a party boy a few years back, got religion, stopped using, and went straight. Maddow is not, of course, the only person to raise this connection: Buzzfeed ran an article today about how some people who knew Tamerlan Tsarnaev and Brendan Mess now thing that "Tam" may have murdered his onetime friend.

This is, of course, speculation. But it is an angle in the 2011 case that Waltham police are probably now going to explore in the weeks to come.

ADDENDUM: In the timeline, this would have been a few months before Tamerlan traveled to Russia (in January 2012).

Those look like drug murders, though I hear it is common to use boxers as enforcers, so maybe.

Which doesn't completely leave out the possibility that he might have murdered his former friend as part of his radicalization (the same one that got him banned from a Cambridge mosque).

[Alien Space Bats]

i speculated it was th al-quade wing of the june taylor dancers.

but more not to speculate with such a degree of santimony and looking down upon those who disagree with you and turn out to be right?

or

there are evil muslims in this world as much as we wish there werent.
there are evil muslims in the united states and they have to be dealt with instead of inventing reasons to pretend they dont exist.

any of the three would work.

And now is when I get to tell you how full of ... yourself you are.

You read sanctimony into my words? That sounds to me like your problem, not mine.

You read a rejection of the idea that Muslims might be engaged in acts of terror against the United States? Again, that sounds to me like your problem, not mine.

You read a rejection of the idea that there are Muslims in America who wish to do this Nation harm? That, too, sounds like your problem, not mine.

You believe that I should have learned that we need to "deal with" the "evil Muslims" in our country "instead of inventing reasons to pretend they dont (sic) exist?" Tell me, sir, how do we know which ones are evil and which ones aren't? Indeed, how do we know any man or woman is evil or not, before they show it in their actions? And — more importantly — how do you propose that we "deal with them" in such a way that doesn't piss all over this Nation's great traditions?

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is a U.S. citizen. Are you saying that before he committed any crime, we should have called the Thought Police and thrown him in prison? Or are you proposing that we should have thrown him in some detention camp, or expelled him from the country for being a Muslim? Are you saying that we should have required him to recite the Nicene Creed or pass some other religious test, and murdered him where he stood if he didn't? I'd really like to know how you think we ought to "deal with" "them" in a way that doesn't dishonor the sacrifice of the dozen generations of military men in my family who have served the Red, White, and Blue in defense of James Madison's Constitution, and in fact I'm rather dying to hear your "solution" to the "Muslim problem".

And, just to be fucking sanctimonious about it, I don't think I'm going to let you off the hook until you give me that "solution".

But I'll tell you what:

I'm going to expect — nay, demand — that your "solution" respect the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, or I'm going to call you Traitor — and rightfully so.

Answer carefully, EM. Answer very carefully.

[Disserbia]

i speculated it was th al-quade wing of the june taylor dancers.

but more not to speculate with such a degree of santimony and looking down upon those who disagree with you and turn out to be right?

or

there are evil muslims in this world as much as we wish there werent.
there are evil muslims in the united states and they have to be dealt with instead of inventing reasons to pretend they dont exist.

any of the three would work.

And now is when I get to tell you how full of ... yourself you are.

You read sanctimony into my words? That sounds to me like your problem, not mine.

You read a rejection of the idea that Muslims might be engaged in acts of terror against the United States? Again, that sounds to me like your problem, not mine.

You read a rejection of the idea that there are Muslims in America who wish to do this Nation harm? That, too, sounds like your problem, not mine.

You believe that I should have learned that we need to "deal with" the "evil Muslims" in our country "instead of inventing reasons to pretend they dont (sic) exist?" Tell me, sir, how do we know which ones are evil and which ones aren't? Indeed, how do we know any man or woman is evil or not, before they show it in their actions? And — more importantly — how do you propose that we "deal with them" in such a way that doesn't piss all over this Nation's great traditions?

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is a U.S. citizen. Are you saying that before he committed any crime, we should have called the Thought Police and thrown him in prison? Or are you proposing that we should have thrown him in some detention camp, or expelled him from the country for being a Muslim? Are you saying that we should have required him to recite the Nicene Creed or pass some other religious test, and murdered him where he stood if he didn't? I'd really like to know how you think we ought to "deal with" "them" in a way that doesn't dishonor the sacrifice of the dozen generations of military men in my family who have served the Red, White, and Blue in defense of James Madison's Constitution, and in fact I'm rather dying to hear your "solution" to the "Muslim problem".

And, just to be fucking sanctimonious about it, I don't think I'm going to let you off the hook until you give me that "solution".

But I'll tell you what:

I'm going to expect — nay, demand — that your "solution" respect the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, or I'm going to call you Traitor — and rightfully so.

Answer carefully, EM. Answer very carefully.

They should have kept closer tabs on his brother, as the Russians warned him to do, not because he was a Muslim, but because he was extremist and capable of violence, as far as little bro, no.

[Ethel mermania]

i speculated it was th al-quade wing of the june taylor dancers.

but more not to speculate with such a degree of santimony and looking down upon those who disagree with you and turn out to be right?

or

there are evil muslims in this world as much as we wish there werent.
there are evil muslims in the united states and they have to be dealt with instead of inventing reasons to pretend they dont exist.

any of the three would work.

And now is when I get to tell you how full of ... yourself you are.

You read sanctimony into my words? That sounds to me like your problem, not mine.

You read a rejection of the idea that Muslims might be engaged in acts of terror against the United States? Again, that sounds to me like your problem, not mine.

You read a rejection of the idea that there are Muslims in America who wish to do this Nation harm? That, too, sounds like your problem, not mine.

You believe that I should have learned that we need to "deal with" the "evil Muslims" in our country "instead of inventing reasons to pretend they dont (sic) exist?" Tell me, sir, how do we know which ones are evil and which ones aren't? Indeed, how do we know any man or woman is evil or not, before they show it in their actions? And — more importantly — how do you propose that we "deal with them" in such a way that doesn't piss all over this Nation's great traditions?

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is a U.S. citizen. Are you saying that before he committed any crime, we should have called the Thought Police and thrown him in prison? Or are you proposing that we should have thrown him in some detention camp, or expelled him from the country for being a Muslim? Are you saying that we should have required him to recite the Nicene Creed or pass some other religious test, and murdered him where he stood if he didn't? I'd really like to know how you think we ought to "deal with" "them" in a way that doesn't dishonor the sacrifice of the dozen generations of military men in my family who have served the Red, White, and Blue in defense of James Madison's Constitution, and in fact I'm rather dying to hear your "solution" to the "Muslim problem".

And, just to be fucking sanctimonious about it, I don't think I'm going to let you off the hook until you give me that "solution".

But I'll tell you what:

I'm going to expect — nay, demand — that your "solution" respect the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th, and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution, or I'm going to call you Traitor — and rightfully so.

Answer carefully, EM. Answer very carefully.

asking me abou my purient interst in your dick is rude and disrespectfull. so i think i dont need to go any further there.
answer carefully? your gonna come and beat me up?

now to the substance of you questio

i am not saying any of those things.

i am saying he is an evil muslim, who is part of a problem of evil muslims. and by takinng a position that evil muslims dont exist is about as smart and helpful as jews praising that hitler fellow.

we need to come up with a solution to deal with radicalized muslims. we need to respect muslims therefore our civil liberties. the muslim community at large needs to be encouraged to and applauded for helping keep people safe. (like those folks in canada).

we need to do a better job of teaching immigrants about the pluralistic society we live in, and we have to do a better job of interviewing potential immegrants to make sure they will fit into american society. (the father claimed politial aslyum, yet he went back to russia and was safe there).

based on what we know so far it would have been almost impossible to stop them from committing this act of terrorism. it would not surprise me to learn, the fbi fell down on the job when they interviewed him based on tips from the russians and his own community.

[Alien Space Bats]

They should have kept closer tabs on his brother, as the Russians warned him to do, not because he was a Muslim, but because he was extremist and capable of violence, as far as little bro, no.

Here's the thing about "keeping closer tabs": Watchya gonna do, where the rubber meets the road?

Ask for a wiretap? Bug his home? Read his e-mail? The courts — even with as many conservative appointees as the GOP has packed onto them in recent years — have been reluctant to issue eavesdropping warrants just because someone seems attracted to radical ideas. Political and religious freedom are interpreted by the courts as freedom to embrace and espouse radical notions, as long as you don't advocate or begin planning violence.

This is why charges that the FBI "dropped the ball" w/re to Tamerlan Tsarnaev and his brother Dzokhar are so far off the mark: Neither the FBI nor State law enforcement officials have the authority to "keep an eye" on people just because they seem radical. This was part of what went wrong with law enforcement in the 60's, when the FBI did seek to aggressively infiltrate, monitor, and disrupt "subversive" organizations under J. Edgar Hoover (COINTELPRO): In many cases, the Federal government went over the line (and sometimes way over the line) in watching left-wing radicals, the KKK, civil rights organizations, Black separatists, the American Indian Movement (AIM), and a host of other groups (nor were they alone in this). After the Church Hearings, most of these operations got dropped or scaled back. Do we really want to go back there, and have our government violate the law and spy on us?

Because if you don't just give the authorities a green light to spy on Americans whose sole crime is basically either being nonconformists or having a bad attitude (or both), then what you need to catch someone before they pull a stunt like this is some actionable tip-off that something is coming: Someone on the inside saying that an attack is coming, someone close to the conspirators seeing or hearing something suspicious and reporting it, an odd purchase or odd pattern of purchase, or evidence of a similar nature. As an American citizen, I have a right to preach hatred against whomever I want all day, every day, and twice on Sundays — so long as I don't cross the line into incitement or criminal conspiracy.

And there isn't really a damned thing that the authorities can do about it — at least as long as I'm a citizen.

we need to come up with a solution to deal with radicalized muslims. we need to respect muslims therefore our civil liberties. the muslim community at large needs to be encouraged to and applauded for helping keep people safe. (like those folks in canada).

We actually do get tips from loyal Muslims, just like the Canadians did a few days back (in the case of the train plot).

we need to do a better job of teaching immigrants about the pluralistic society we live in, and we have to do a better job of interviewing potential immegrants to make sure they will fit into american society. (the father claimed politial aslyum, yet he went back to russia and was safe there).

By all accounts, both Tamerlan and Dzhokhar seemed to be fitting in just fine until a couple of years ago (i.e., 2011). Their radicalization appears to have been relatively recent and quite sudden. How are you going to make sure people who look like they're assimilating just fine continue to assimilate just fine.

based on what we know so far it would have been almost impossible to stop them from committing this act of terrorism. it would not surprise me to learn, the fbi fell down on the job when they interviewed him based on tips from the russians and his own community.

I suspect we'll find that the FSB's conveyed suspicions didn't have enough "there" there to really help the FBI discover anything of use in this case.

[Lolzieristan]

With al due respect to my Russian brethren in the FSB, I'm not entirely sure their standards are the same as ours. In Russia, simply being Chechen and speaking of Chechen extremism in anything but a tone of pure contempt is more or less enough to get them on a watch list. Chechens and ethnically Russian authorities have always had a rough relationship for as long as Russia has been a unified state.

[Shofercia]

With al due respect to my Russian brethren in the FSB, I'm not entirely sure their standards are the same as ours. In Russia, simply being Chechen and speaking of Chechen extremism in anything but a tone of pure contempt is more or less enough to get them on a watch list. Chechens and ethnically Russian authorities have always had a rough relationship for as long as Russia has been a unified state.

Nope, that's not true. The Russians had something on him, but could never catch him in the act. It's not just every Chechen, since the older brother was on the list, but the younger one wasn't. My guess is that Tarnaev, the older one, was an information dealer. Since armed members of the "Ichkerian Republic" aren't going to last long scouting military installations, they would send someone like Tarnaev to check it out, and report back to them with information where the weak spots were. Or something like that, but it's not like the Russians keep tabs on every Chechens, cause with over a million of them, that's insane. Or perhaps he was a recruiter, getting the youths to sign up. And since he couldn't find anyone... Or maybe it's something else.

based on what we know so far it would have been almost impossible to stop them from committing this act of terrorism. it would not surprise me to learn, the fbi fell down on the job when they interviewed him based on tips from the russians and his own community.

I suspect we'll find that the FSB's conveyed suspicions didn't have enough "there" there to really help the FBI discover anything of use in this case.

I think something like this happened:

FSB: "You gotta be careful with Tarnaev, he's up to something, we suspect that he's XXX to YYY"
FBI: "You have any non-circumstantial evidence?"
FSB: "Nothing that we can share"
FBI: "Meaning you probably don't have it, thanks for the tip"

[The Black Forrest]

asking me abou my purient interst in your dick is rude and disrespectfull. so i think i dont need to go any further there.
answer carefully? your gonna come and beat me up?

Rather childish. You can do better then that.

now to the substance of you questio

i am not saying any of those things.

i am saying he is an evil muslim, who is part of a problem of evil muslims. and by takinng a position that evil muslims dont exist is about as smart and helpful as jews praising that hitler fellow.

Why is Muslim a factor? It's nothing more then segmenting a group of people who happen to practice one Religion in the world.

Good and evil are not limited to one group or Religion for that matter.

I work with several Muslims and they were horrified by the bombings. Some were genuinely saddened by the death of the child.

The fact he claims to be a Muslim has no value in judging him.

Raising the label of Muslim is the same as raising the label of nigger.

"Well you know those Muslims!"

The best thing to do is to not even mention it. Muslims will automatically have levels of sympathy because you are judging the whole. Stay with judging the individual.

[Ethel mermania]

asking me abou my purient interst in your dick is rude and disrespectfull. so i think i dont need to go any further there.
answer carefully? your gonna come and beat me up?

Rather childish. You can do better then that.

now to the substance of you questio

i am not saying any of those things.

i am saying he is an evil muslim, who is part of a problem of evil muslims. and by takinng a position that evil muslims dont exist is about as smart and helpful as jews praising that hitler fellow.

Why is Muslim a factor? It's nothing more then segmenting a group of people who happen to practice one Religion in the world.

Good and evil are not limited to one group or Religion for that matter.

I work with several Muslims and they were horrified by the bombings. Some were genuinely saddened by the death of the child.

The fact he claims to be a Muslim has no value in judging him.

Raising the label of Muslim is the same as raising the label of nigger.

"Well you know those Muslims!"

The best thing to do is to not even mention it. Muslims will automatically have levels of sympathy because you are judging the whole. Stay with judging the individual.

it is a factor because it is supposed reason for the terrorist attacks. I am not making religion an issue, it is the fellows who are planting bombs at marathon's or shooting up a military base in texas who are. And when he says he does it for his religion, and they say it time and time again. What other choice do we have but to believe them? Mohammad atta, drove an airplane into a building, he said it was for his religion, say what you will about the event, but it shows great belief in a cause.

I have never said or believed most muslims are terrorists. fwiw my friends who come here generally say it is to " get the fuck away from "all that nonsense over there". They are horrified as much if not more than I am, i do hear these assholes make us all look bad.

The guy with the gun gets to tell us the reason he is doing it, we dont get to make it up for him.

[Xsyne]

The guy with the gun gets to tell us the reason he is doing it, we dont get to make it up for him.

Yes, that's how it works. So stop saying that his religion is the reason.

[Aryavartha]

US was complacent about asylum seekers from conflicts they support. Plus, I think the domestic investigative agencies that monitor 'darker colored' muslims (blacks and browns) gave a pass for 'white' muslims. They have infiltrated mosques and monitor chat rooms and have caught quite a few would-be jihadis (and some who were not even jihadis, like that warehouse busted with some black muslims..forgot what happened eventually to them). That is the explanation I have of why these guys 'blind-sided' the agencies.

[Camicon]

*snip*

As far as I'm aware, we have no fucking clue as to what motivated these brothers. Or has Dzhokhar suddenly regained the ability to speak?

[The Emerald Dawn]

*snip*

As far as I'm aware, we have no fucking clue as to what motivated these brothers. Or has Dzhokhar suddenly regained the ability to speak?

He has. He says that it was the wars.

[Xsyne]

As far as I'm aware, we have no fucking clue as to what motivated these brothers. Or has Dzhokhar suddenly regained the ability to speak?

He has. He says that it was the wars.

Link?

[The Emerald Dawn]

He has. He says that it was the wars.

Link?

Hmm, The Independent seems to have retracted it, citing a BPD spokesperson saying that they could not "confirm or deny" anything. I read it on their website...an hour or so ago?

[The New Sea Territory]

US was complacent about asylum seekers from conflicts they support. Plus, I think the domestic investigative agencies that monitor 'darker colored' muslims (blacks and browns) gave a pass for 'white' muslims. They have infiltrated mosques and monitor chat rooms and have caught quite a few would-be jihadis (and some who were not even jihadis, like that warehouse busted with some black muslims..forgot what happened eventually to them). That is the explanation I have of why these guys 'blind-sided' the agencies.

But the FBI had files on Tamerlan. And he traveled back to Chechnya....?

[Farnhamia]

US was complacent about asylum seekers from conflicts they support. Plus, I think the domestic investigative agencies that monitor 'darker colored' muslims (blacks and browns) gave a pass for 'white' muslims. They have infiltrated mosques and monitor chat rooms and have caught quite a few would-be jihadis (and some who were not even jihadis, like that warehouse busted with some black muslims..forgot what happened eventually to them). That is the explanation I have of why these guys 'blind-sided' the agencies.

But the FBI had files on Tamerlan. And he traveled back to Chechnya....?

As I understand it, the FBI was asked by the Russians to interview Tamerlan. The FBI did and said they could find nothing against him. This was at least a couple years ago. Of course, we have no idea why the Russians asked for this.

[Napkiraly]

But the FBI had files on Tamerlan. And he traveled back to Chechnya....?

As I understand it, the FBI was asked by the Russians to interview Tamerlan. The FBI did and said they could find nothing against him. This was at least a couple years ago. Of course, we have no idea why the Russians asked for this.

Probably keeping tabs on whomever is visiting pro-Chechen independence sites.

[Aryavartha]

But the FBI had files on Tamerlan.

that is my contention..if this were a black or brown guy and an asylum seeker where the state dept does not pick sides - I wonder if he would have gotten to where he did.

I am still puzzled by how both managed to live in that area with no jobs. Dealing drugs?

[Herador]

I am still puzzled by how both managed to live in that area with no jobs. Dealing drugs?

Were they going to college and on federal aid? Because that money can go far.

[AiliailiA]

I am still puzzled by how both managed to live in that area with no jobs. Dealing drugs?

Were they going to college and on federal aid? Because that money can go far.

Dzohkar had a scholarship. His marks got suddenly worse though and he dropped out.

[Herador]

Were they going to college and on federal aid? Because that money can go far.

Dzohkar had a scholarship. His marks got suddenly worse though and he dropped out.

It's possible he still had some money left over. Is it possible that their increasingly desperate financial situation may have lead (in some way great or small) to the bombings?

[Grad Duchy of Luxembourg]

Dzohkar had a scholarship. His marks got suddenly worse though and he dropped out.

It's possible he still had some money left over. Is it possible that their increasingly desperate financial situation may have lead (in some way great or small) to the bombings?

They had extended family that helped them out. Financial situations are not being discussed as a big factor.

[Veceria]

*snip*

As far as I'm aware, we have no fucking clue as to what motivated these brothers. Or has Dzhokhar suddenly regained the ability to speak?

He still has the ability to write.

[Ethel mermania]

But the FBI had files on Tamerlan. And he traveled back to Chechnya....?

As I understand it, the FBI was asked by the Russians to interview Tamerlan. The FBI did and said they could find nothing against him. This was at least a couple years ago. Of course, we have no idea why the Russians asked for this.

because hating ruski's is institutional to the fbi, i'm betting that "interrigation" was more like a party.