Feminists sabotage yet another talk on men's equality

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Eh... it's amazing what you don't see when you're in it. Remove yourself from it, and it becomes far, far more noticeable.

Actually, there are no paths closed to my female peers in my experience. The reason being my experience is completely restricted to school.

But, let's look at that properly. What can we do? There are sports teams. There are fun days. There are extra-curricular activities like debating. There are events to participate in.

Okay, so Sports teams may be the thing. To my knowledge there is no girl's rugby team and that would be it. I cannot confirm whether or not this is the case now (I'm inclined to think it is) but it was certainly the case at my primary school (apparently due to lack of interest) although I am not 100% as to what the exact context of that non-existent team was.

But why did that example not come readily to mind? Because it's on the very periphery of my experience... it's based on the failure for there to be any team photos of such a team in the yearbook. This is the problem with anecdotes and it's why I put "in my experience". On the other hand, there's no boys' netball team...

My immediate experience, for example, would conclude that there is such a thing as female privilege because here is a science thing for year 10 girls but not for year 10 boys. That was an immediate experience because, unlike the rugby example, I was actively involved in Y10 science. (They asked the girls in my class if they'd be interested, see?) Oh, and there's the flexibility test which was the only thing that was more difficult for girls to pass than boys.

But, wait, there's the news. What have we got there? Female sports teams of all types. Hang on, there's that case about the male twin with much higher premiums than his equally experienced female twin but that's up against a former female PM, current chief justice (which is in the news due to race relations primarily) and lower pay that I remember once. Plus, of course, that stuff about the Olympics which I made a thread on. But, hang on, wasn't the primary point that I made there that the central figure ignored some female only sports? To top that all off there's the Queen and the NCEA data I've basically been preaching at you guys in this thread.

Yeah, looks pretty bloody damn even to Forsher. And half the stuff that's talked about here is equal opportunity legally but the big complaint is the disparity in outcomes (numbers of female MPs for example).

Oh, and of course, I'm far more familiar with women working than men because, well, I'm a school student and we all know what teacher ratios are like.

It's not really a matter of the paths being closed as much as that there are fields which make it difficult for women to be a part of, usually male dominated fields like piloting (to offer an example I'm familiar with). Not impossible, but not truly easy either.

[Forsher]

Actually, there are no paths closed to my female peers in my experience. The reason being my experience is completely restricted to school.

But, let's look at that properly. What can we do? There are sports teams. There are fun days. There are extra-curricular activities like debating. There are events to participate in.

Okay, so Sports teams may be the thing. To my knowledge there is no girl's rugby team and that would be it. I cannot confirm whether or not this is the case now (I'm inclined to think it is) but it was certainly the case at my primary school (apparently due to lack of interest) although I am not 100% as to what the exact context of that non-existent team was.

But why did that example not come readily to mind? Because it's on the very periphery of my experience... it's based on the failure for there to be any team photos of such a team in the yearbook. This is the problem with anecdotes and it's why I put "in my experience". On the other hand, there's no boys' netball team...

My immediate experience, for example, would conclude that there is such a thing as female privilege because here is a science thing for year 10 girls but not for year 10 boys. That was an immediate experience because, unlike the rugby example, I was actively involved in Y10 science. (They asked the girls in my class if they'd be interested, see?) Oh, and there's the flexibility test which was the only thing that was more difficult for girls to pass than boys.

But, wait, there's the news. What have we got there? Female sports teams of all types. Hang on, there's that case about the male twin with much higher premiums than his equally experienced female twin but that's up against a former female PM, current chief justice (which is in the news due to race relations primarily) and lower pay that I remember once. Plus, of course, that stuff about the Olympics which I made a thread on. But, hang on, wasn't the primary point that I made there that the central figure ignored some female only sports? To top that all off there's the Queen and the NCEA data I've basically been preaching at you guys in this thread.

Yeah, looks pretty bloody damn even to Forsher. And half the stuff that's talked about here is equal opportunity legally but the big complaint is the disparity in outcomes (numbers of female MPs for example).

Oh, and of course, I'm far more familiar with women working than men because, well, I'm a school student and we all know what teacher ratios are like.

It's not really a matter of the paths being closed as much as that there are fields which make it difficult for women to be a part of, usually male dominated fields like piloting (to offer an example I'm familiar with). Not impossible, but not truly easy either.

That is a truth.

However, it doesn't change much now because my experience of different fields is limited to progressing from one level of a subject to the next within a single school. Perhaps next year will change things but given what I've linked to in this thread I don't think so.

However, in terms of jobs I am at a total loss because I have no interest in working and would (as I put on the census) would not accept a job if it were offeref to me tomorrow without an insane pay rate and very little in the way of hours and effort.

[Darmalstan]

Who would have thought that an ideology that focuses on the pains and sufferings of one particular group would be so hostile to another group that also wants to claim that there are some pains and sufferings on their side as well?

The grass isn't always greener, unless you're a feminist.

[Forsher]

Who would have thought that an ideology that focuses on the pains and sufferings of one particular group would be so hostile to another group that also wants to claim that there are some pains and sufferings on their side as well?

The grass isn't always greener, unless you're a feminist.

They're trying to protect their monopoly.

Because the market provides an explanation for everything.

In reality, many feminists believe that feminism already covers men's rights so, presumably, they fear the consequences of a split movement in terms of results.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Who would have thought that an ideology that focuses on the pains and sufferings of one particular group would be so hostile to another group that also wants to claim that there are some pains and sufferings on their side as well?

The grass isn't always greener, unless you're a feminist.

They're trying to protect their monopoly.

Because the market provides an explanation for everything.

In reality, many feminists believe that feminism already covers men's rights so, presumably, they fear the consequences of a split movement in terms of results.

Eh, I'll say most feminists are pretty aware of this.

However, you have to pretty much let them see this one from time to time

[Soldati Senza Confini]

It's not really a matter of the paths being closed as much as that there are fields which make it difficult for women to be a part of, usually male dominated fields like piloting (to offer an example I'm familiar with). Not impossible, but not truly easy either.

It depends on what you mean by "being part of".

A woman piloting? Yes, it's hard, but then again it's not like all men really want or can go pilot a plane either. In fact, a woman piloting IS going to have a hard time getting ahead as a pilot because there aren't many women pilots to speak of so that men can see women are equal. Most people (men and women) don't want that job either.

If you mean employer's discrimination then yes, there is employer's discrimination at a subtle level in these fields, and it is expected for a woman or someone of another race to be better than the average entrant.

If you mean prestige, women and other races have to work harder to establish prestige in their careers. I am into computers, and I have seen some very smart women. A woman I know is into security, she is acquiring her CCNP this summer or next fall, and she doesn't seem bothered by the whole "women in computers don't belong" concept because she is confident. And I know that being Latino, by default, puts me at a disadvantage against white and Indian males in the computer field, mostly because there's not that many Latinos in the computer field to speak of.

It all depends on what you mean.

[NERVUN]

Eh... it's amazing what you don't see when you're in it. Remove yourself from it, and it becomes far, far more noticeable.

Actually, there are no paths closed to my female peers in my experience. The reason being my experience is completely restricted to school.

But, let's look at that properly. What can we do? There are sports teams. There are fun days. There are extra-curricular activities like debating. There are events to participate in.

Okay, so Sports teams may be the thing. To my knowledge there is no girl's rugby team and that would be it. I cannot confirm whether or not this is the case now (I'm inclined to think it is) but it was certainly the case at my primary school (apparently due to lack of interest) although I am not 100% as to what the exact context of that non-existent team was.

But why did that example not come readily to mind? Because it's on the very periphery of my experience... it's based on the failure for there to be any team photos of such a team in the yearbook. This is the problem with anecdotes and it's why I put "in my experience". On the other hand, there's no boys' netball team... (which despite appearances was an afterthought itself, and as this post proves NERVUN had quite a good point re: thinking about it).

My immediate experience, for example, would conclude that there is such a thing as female privilege because here is a science thing for year 10 girls but not for year 10 boys. That was an immediate experience because, unlike the rugby example, I was actively involved in Y10 science. (They asked the girls in my class if they'd be interested, see?) Oh, and there's the flexibility test which was the only thing that was more difficult for girls to pass than boys.

But, wait, there's the news. What have we got there? Female sports teams of all types. Hang on, there's that case about the male twin with much higher premiums than his equally experienced female twin but that's up against a former female PM, current chief justice (which is in the news due to race relations primarily) and lower pay that I remember once. Plus, of course, that stuff about the Olympics which I made a thread on. But, hang on, wasn't the primary point that I made there that the central figure ignored some female only sports? To top that all off there's the Queen and the NCEA data I've basically been preaching at you guys in this thread.

Yeah, looks pretty bloody damn even to Forsher. And half the stuff that's talked about here is equal opportunity legally but the big complaint is the disparity in outcomes (numbers of female MPs for example).

Oh, and of course, I'm far more familiar with women working than men because, well, I'm a school student and we all know what teacher ratios are like.

And then I saw this thread but by this paragraph I'm not sure we can say with a straight face that this is still covered by "in my experience". (That said, I've got a few teachers who prefer to make the male students do the heavy lifting but, then, one at least lampshaded this last time. But, hey, when we carrying the chairs around the girls probably got half of them across.)

I don't think you quite... get what I was talking about.

In terms of male privilege, the usual beef is "I don't get any" as if their experience is the gold standard. The thing is though, they probably do, but are not aware of it. It's background noise, you don't notice it till it is gone.

Ok, story time, back in the dawn of history when I was at university (15 years ago... God), one of my basic education classes talked about how teachers approach female or minority student. The professor brought up the notion of white privilege. Being a young idiot, I did the same thing. "Well, I don't get any white privilege" and proceeded to list how (This being a homework assignment) the many ways where my supposed superior status wasn't there, was tempered, etc. I thought, at the time, that my points were well made. After all, I was young, single, dressed weird, liked odd things, and slightly disabled. I wasn't exactly feeling all that privileged.

Then I moved to Japan.

Now I really AM in minority status. The things that we talked about in class now apply to ME, only not as a "Be careful how you teach" but more "You are now the target". I didn't really notice it until it was gone just, yeah, how much I did benefit from being part of the guys in charge, and it's not even that everyone in Japan is trying to keep the gaijin down (far from it), it's just that... not being Japanese, I'm marginalized, companies, governments, groups, they don't cater to me. I can't turn on the news and see people who look like me in positions of power or responsibility. My voice isn't heard and doesn't carry weight the way my wife's voice does now. It's automatically assumed that I don't understand (Possibly a safe bet) and thus even when my wife and I are out shopping together, even when we're shopping for something for me, and even when I am obviously the one asking questions, 9 times out of 10 the clerk will not talk to me directly, but my wife. Even if I asked the questions. I'm the one viewed with some suspicion, how I dress and what I do are fair game for comments (Sometimes very unwanted), and of course people in Japan seem to assume that if you're here and a foreigner, you MUST just WANT to talk to them, any time, to provide a free English lesson (This can get rather interesting, such as the time when a very nice old gentleman stopped me to talk in English... while we both were waiting for a urinal to open in the restroom).

Some of my complaints kinda sound like what women say, ne?

You really don't notice unless it is gone. That's why I discount the notion that male privilege doesn't exist, because how would we actually know?

[Forsher]

Actually, there are no paths closed to my female peers in my experience. The reason being my experience is completely restricted to school.

But, let's look at that properly. What can we do? There are sports teams. There are fun days. There are extra-curricular activities like debating. There are events to participate in.

Okay, so Sports teams may be the thing. To my knowledge there is no girl's rugby team and that would be it. I cannot confirm whether or not this is the case now (I'm inclined to think it is) but it was certainly the case at my primary school (apparently due to lack of interest) although I am not 100% as to what the exact context of that non-existent team was.

But why did that example not come readily to mind? Because it's on the very periphery of my experience... it's based on the failure for there to be any team photos of such a team in the yearbook. This is the problem with anecdotes and it's why I put "in my experience". On the other hand, there's no boys' netball team... (which despite appearances was an afterthought itself, and as this post proves NERVUN had quite a good point re: thinking about it).

My immediate experience, for example, would conclude that there is such a thing as female privilege because here is a science thing for year 10 girls but not for year 10 boys. That was an immediate experience because, unlike the rugby example, I was actively involved in Y10 science. (They asked the girls in my class if they'd be interested, see?) Oh, and there's the flexibility test which was the only thing that was more difficult for girls to pass than boys.

But, wait, there's the news. What have we got there? Female sports teams of all types. Hang on, there's that case about the male twin with much higher premiums than his equally experienced female twin but that's up against a former female PM, current chief justice (which is in the news due to race relations primarily) and lower pay that I remember once. Plus, of course, that stuff about the Olympics which I made a thread on. But, hang on, wasn't the primary point that I made there that the central figure ignored some female only sports? To top that all off there's the Queen and the NCEA data I've basically been preaching at you guys in this thread.

Yeah, looks pretty bloody damn even to Forsher. And half the stuff that's talked about here is equal opportunity legally but the big complaint is the disparity in outcomes (numbers of female MPs for example).

Oh, and of course, I'm far more familiar with women working than men because, well, I'm a school student and we all know what teacher ratios are like.

And then I saw this thread but by this paragraph I'm not sure we can say with a straight face that this is still covered by "in my experience". (That said, I've got a few teachers who prefer to make the male students do the heavy lifting but, then, one at least lampshaded this last time. But, hey, when we carrying the chairs around the girls probably got half of them across.)

I don't think you quite... get what I was talking about.

In terms of male privilege, the usual beef is "I don't get any" as if their experience is the gold standard. The thing is though, they probably do, but are not aware of it. It's background noise, you don't notice it till it is gone.

Ok, story time, back in the dawn of history when I was at university (15 years ago... God), one of my basic education classes talked about how teachers approach female or minority student. The professor brought up the notion of white privilege. Being a young idiot, I did the same thing. "Well, I don't get any white privilege" and proceeded to list how (This being a homework assignment) the many ways where my supposed superior status wasn't there, was tempered, etc. I thought, at the time, that my points were well made. After all, I was young, single, dressed weird, liked odd things, and slightly disabled. I wasn't exactly feeling all that privileged.

Then I moved to Japan.

Now I really AM in minority status. The things that we talked about in class now apply to ME, only not as a "Be careful how you teach" but more "You are now the target". I didn't really notice it until it was gone just, yeah, how much I did benefit from being part of the guys in charge, and it's not even that everyone in Japan is trying to keep the gaijin down (far from it), it's just that... not being Japanese, I'm marginalized, companies, governments, groups, they don't cater to me. I can't turn on the news and see people who look like me in positions of power or responsibility. My voice isn't heard and doesn't carry weight the way my wife's voice does now. It's automatically assumed that I don't understand (Possibly a safe bet) and thus even when my wife and I are out shopping together, even when we're shopping for something for me, and even when I am obviously the one asking questions, 9 times out of 10 the clerk will not talk to me directly, but my wife. Even if I asked the questions. I'm the one viewed with some suspicion, how I dress and what I do are fair game for comments (Sometimes very unwanted), and of course people in Japan seem to assume that if you're here and a foreigner, you MUST just WANT to talk to them, any time, to provide a free English lesson (This can get rather interesting, such as the time when a very nice old gentleman stopped me to talk in English... while we both were waiting for a urinal to open in the restroom).

Some of my complaints kinda sound like what women say, ne?

You really don't notice unless it is gone. That's why I discount the notion that male privilege doesn't exist, because how would we actually know?

Well, when I turn on the television approximately half the people are female (in the news at least, for example, NCIS LA has three female characters, NCIS has two compared to about four guys each... they're what I just watched). When I go to school, I'm in a minority (we've got more female students and teachers, in most of my subjects there are way fewer guys). I turn on the television, there are ads specifically aimed at men, ads specifically aimed at women, ads for mothers, ads for people who don't feel queasy when they smell Lynx, ads for chainsaw lovers but definitely assume they're men blah blah. Actually, when I turn on the television I may as well not be in NZ.

What you are saying works in reverse. If we cannot consider what it's like to be a woman, they cannot consider what it is like to be a man.

So, yeah, maybe it's all background stuff that we just drone out but you can find it. You can put yourself through the paces of your everyday life and think about every interaction, every thing you notice and think how that might be different.

In Japan, you turn on the television and get something very different. So, there aren't so many Americans on your television screen. Substitute "In Japan" with "You are a woman" and "Americans" for women and see what you think. We might not ever be able to exactly understand the reaction but you can get the result.

Let's look at a basic day. Go to school, in the home room thing we've got. Basically, we've got for some weird reason a pretty perfect boys/girls split. This is also where I get one of two male teachers (out of five this year, out of six previous two years and it's the same two teachers too). Maybe it feels weird to have a male teacher.

Next subject, this was history. Only four guys, I sit next to one the other two to my right a bit. Female teacher... That said, historical females today consist of, what, one young looking Maori girl apparently being a form of mail order bride and a few silent ones but Hone Heke's wife/female aide was a bit more mentioned... used as a kind of way to, I don't know, alter his reactions somewhat. (We were watching a video on the Treaty of Waitangi.) Presumably, we notice that in the past there was a definite tendency for men to be doing everything.

Morning tea... we'll skip this and go straight to economics because, frankly, one chooses who to spend one's free time with.

Economics, male teacher, roughly even split. What did we do? Draw graphs. Pretty standard stuff and as this was all we did I'm not sure what you can possibly take from this. I don't know, maybe graphs are tools of the patriarchy? What man can fathom the female mind?

I admit defeat, I tried but I'm really not getting any where with this. However, this does mean these "check your privilege" posts are totally pointless.

[Central Slavia]

This does not surprise me the least. The red haired one with mouth ear-to-ear was truly doing their lot a wonderful advertisement - I like how the MRA activists kept their calm and just let her graduate towards "SHUT THE FUCK UP!" as her only argument or even expression.

And the bit about an university student union banning the estabilishment of a men's rights student organization on clearly ideologic grounds (there's an article linked that describes it in detail - essentially, they amended their statute to list the concept of misandry as false and contrary to women's rights) is hillarious - in essence the three students were excommunicated for heresy.

Lastly, the above linked to an absolutely hillarious video which shows why Richard Dawkins is and will forever be completely awesome.

[The Truth and Light]

This does not surprise me the least. The red haired one with mouth ear-to-ear was truly doing their lot a wonderful advertisement - I like how the MRA activists kept their calm and just let her graduate towards "SHUT THE FUCK UP!" as her only argument or even expression.

Yeah, about that. MRA's do not have an excellent track record for "keeping calm".

http://manboobz.com/2013/04/15/canadian ... #more-8272

In the above article it is highlighted the retaliatory actions that were taken against this red-headed women after an MRA camera-man taped her and uploaded the footage to YouTube without her permission. She has received hundreds of rape threats and death threats, her personal info has been posted up on A Voice For Men and not taken down (A Voice For Men actively promotes this behavior), they have assaulted her on her blog, her Facebook, her YouTube, and her defunct dating site account and a Twitter account she doesn't even use.

Shocked as you may be, this is the norm within and without the MRA group, and this is the type of misogyny that EVERY woman faces every day, whether they are feminists or not.

So if you honestly have something bad to say about this woman, I think you need to shut the fuck up.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

This does not surprise me the least. The red haired one with mouth ear-to-ear was truly doing their lot a wonderful advertisement - I like how the MRA activists kept their calm and just let her graduate towards "SHUT THE FUCK UP!" as her only argument or even expression.

Yeah, about that. MRA's do not have an excellent track record for "keeping calm".

http://manboobz.com/2013/04/15/canadian ... #more-8272

In the above article it is highlighted the retaliatory actions that were taken against this red-headed women after an MRA camera-man taped her and uploaded the footage to YouTube without her permission. She has received hundreds of rape threats and death threats, her personal info has been posted up on A Voice For Men and not taken down (A Voice For Men actively promotes this behavior), they have assaulted her on her blog, her Facebook, her YouTube, and her defunct dating site account and a Twitter account she doesn't even use.

Shocked as you may be, this is the norm within and without the MRA group, and this is the type of misogyny that EVERY woman faces every day, whether they are feminists or not.

So if you honestly have something bad to say about this woman, I think you need to shut the fuck up.

While I find her actions something of reprieve, I also don't think her actions needed that kind of bullshit.

Both sides piss me off because they both think they're right yet both are fucking up big time. Both radical feminists and MRAs are acting like a bunch of little children.

[The Truth and Light]

Yeah, about that. MRA's do not have an excellent track record for "keeping calm".

http://manboobz.com/2013/04/15/canadian ... #more-8272

In the above article it is highlighted the retaliatory actions that were taken against this red-headed women after an MRA camera-man taped her and uploaded the footage to YouTube without her permission. She has received hundreds of rape threats and death threats, her personal info has been posted up on A Voice For Men and not taken down (A Voice For Men actively promotes this behavior), they have assaulted her on her blog, her Facebook, her YouTube, and her defunct dating site account and a Twitter account she doesn't even use.

Shocked as you may be, this is the norm within and without the MRA group, and this is the type of misogyny that EVERY woman faces every day, whether they are feminists or not.

So if you honestly have something bad to say about this woman, I think you need to shut the fuck up.

While I find her actions something of reprieve, I also don't think her actions needed that kind of bullshit.

Both sides piss me off because they both think they're right yet both are fucking up big time. Both radical feminists and MRAs are acting like a bunch of little children.

Listen, this is how it is. We saw a glimpse of an argument, filmed and uploaded by an MRA from an MRA's perspective. They WANT you to have a bad perspective of her. She hasn't done shit wrong, in fact, what I gathered from that footage was that what they didn't want people to see was, that people were constantly talking over her, and that she had probably been harassed on that same day by other people.

They want you to think the feminist group is a bunch of bullies or that they want to silence "free speech", to distract you from the blatant and overwhelming reality of the situation. Which is the women are silenced and talked over and beaten for having an opinion all the time, the various MRA organizations and A Voice For Men actively take offensive measures against women who try to take a stand, and in this media frenzy we see the manifested proof of this truth. Check YouTube and Reddit, check the overwhelming trend across the board. MRA's and misogynists are shouting over and repressing all feminists opinions or support for this woman and this protest. The overwhelming perspective takes a hostile, "kill those bitches" stance against these protesters.

THAT is silencing. FUCK YES to those protesters. Fuck yes that they put up with being smeared and shit on and told to stay quiet, and fuck yes that they shouted down an MRA meeting. FUCK. YES.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

While I find her actions something of reprieve, I also don't think her actions needed that kind of bullshit.

Both sides piss me off because they both think they're right yet both are fucking up big time. Both radical feminists and MRAs are acting like a bunch of little children.

Listen, this is how it is. We saw a glimpse of an argument, filmed and uploaded by an MRA from an MRA's perspective. They WANT you to have a bad perspective of her. She hasn't done shit wrong, in fact, what I gathered from that footage was that what they didn't want people to see was, that people were constantly talking over her, and that she had probably been harassed on that same day by other people.

They want you to think the feminist group is a bunch of bullies or that they want to silence "free speech", to distract you from the blatant and overwhelming reality of the situation. Which is the women are silenced and talked over and beaten for having an opinion all the time, the various MRA organizations and A Voice For Men actively take offensive measures against women who try to take a stand, and in this media frenzy we see the manifested proof of this truth. Check YouTube and Reddit, check the overwhelming trend across the board. MRA's and misogynists are shouting over and repressing all feminists opinions or support for this woman and this protest. The overwhelming perspective takes a hostile, "kill those bitches" stance against these protesters.

THAT is silencing. FUCK YES to those protesters. Fuck yes that they put up with being smeared and shit on and told to stay quiet, and fuck yes that they shouted down an MRA meeting. FUCK. YES.

It doesn't change my opinion both sides acted and are acting like immature brats in the end. The MRAs are acting like a bunch of elementary school children and the feminists at the protest plus supporters are stooping down to their level.

There are more mature ways to conduct a dissenting opinion. Just not this, from both sides.

[Tahar Joblis]

I don't think you quite... get what I was talking about.

In terms of male privilege, the usual beef is "I don't get any" as if their experience is the gold standard. The thing is though, they probably do, but are not aware of it. It's background noise, you don't notice it till it is gone.

You don't notice it. Some of us are not so unaware of the advantages we have. Privilege^TM as a non-specific binary classification system dividing various binaries into privileged/oppressed dichotomies is fundamentally flawed, but it is true that privileges we have tend to be invisible.

I'm very conscious of a number of quite specific privileges I have by virtue of what I am, rather than my choices in life.

Very few of those are due to my being male; and most of the ones due to my being male are not terribly important ones. Most of the people from my cohort growing up in the town I did at the time I did - high school classmates and the like - are doing pretty good. The women, however, are doing better than the men, and this is the normal picture in the United States in the here and now. Studies have shown that male pupils are discriminated against in primary and secondary education. We've discussed some of these on NSG. It's a real phenomenon; the idea that boys are bad students in general is visible in the same way and for the same reasons as the idea that girls are bad at math.

The big and important advantages I have unfairly are:

1. My race; I'm white. That's important.
2. My parents' (and grandparents') income and education levels; the inherited component of my SES, in other words.
3. The place where I grew up and went to school. It was a college town near a major research center with several world-class universities in the area; I was surrounded by the children of people working in tech industries, professors, and the like, and the school system was excellent.

My maleness, though? The benefits I reap from that are not nearly so tangible or so important. I'm familiar with the laundry list of male "privileges." I can make a similar laundry list of female privileges; easily comparable in importance, and in many cases better grounded in reality. Most women are not any more aware of their female privileges than the average white person is of their racial privileges; if anything, less so if we consider awareness of privileges as being privileges.

E.g., there is a real tendency to frame female privileges as a form of female oppression; but while treating women with kid gloves in the criminal justice system is rooted in a tradition of treating women like children, it is unquestionably a material advantage given to women for being female.

Ok, story time, back in the dawn of history when I was at university (15 years ago... God), one of my basic education classes talked about how teachers approach female or minority student. The professor brought up the notion of white privilege. Being a young idiot, I did the same thing. "Well, I don't get any white privilege" and proceeded to list how (This being a homework assignment) the many ways where my supposed superior status wasn't there, was tempered, etc. I thought, at the time, that my points were well made. After all, I was young, single, dressed weird, liked odd things, and slightly disabled. I wasn't exactly feeling all that privileged.

Then I moved to Japan.

Now I really AM in minority status. The things that we talked about in class now apply to ME, only not as a "Be careful how you teach" but more "You are now the target". I didn't really notice it until it was gone just, yeah, how much I did benefit from being part of the guys in charge, and it's not even that everyone in Japan is trying to keep the gaijin down (far from it), it's just that... not being Japanese, I'm marginalized, companies, governments, groups, they don't cater to me. I can't turn on the news and see people who look like me in positions of power or responsibility.

When I flip on the television, I see men and women side by side reporting the news. If anything, the women get more face time. Advertisements are more often targeted to women than men, on and off the television. Television shows are more often targeted to women than men. The majority of all media products are designed and intended for female consumption.

The majority of commercial products are designed and intended for female consumption. It is commonly taken as given among those engaged in marketing that women control a majority of spending decisions. For every sexist ad portraying women as boob delivery systems, there are a half dozen which treat men as irrational animals, incompetent subhumans, objects of derision, or simply as sex objects themselves.

For all the talk about the "male gaze" on the camera level, it is not actually different from the female gaze, which pays - according to various studies - somewhere between "just as much" and "noticeably more" attention to "sexualized" female body parts.

That there are the majority of senators and CEOs are male signifies only a little more than the fact that late 19th century Briton was ruled by a queen; and says, of that little, more about what the United States was like when those senators (median birth year: 1953) and CEOs (median birth year: 1958) were growing up than what it will be like when today's college students hold the reins of power (2050 or thereabouts).

For those in my peer group, most of the leadership positions (club presidencies, student government positions, lower-level management positions in the work force, et cetera) they have seen held by their peers have been held by women. Most of them did not experience a situation where the majority of the adults around them in positions of power or responsibility were male until after they left school; and for most of those experiencing a majority-male proportion, it has been a narrow majority, concentrated in the senior ranks among older men.

My voice isn't heard and doesn't carry weight the way my wife's voice does now. It's automatically assumed that I don't understand (Possibly a safe bet) and thus even when my wife and I are out shopping together, even when we're shopping for something for me, and even when I am obviously the one asking questions, 9 times out of 10 the clerk will not talk to me directly, but my wife.

This is not an experience unique to you as an American living in Japan. Does this seem strange? Not to me. It is given - presumed - that with regard to a large number of products, men have no clue and aren't the ones whose opinions matter. See above about commercials, marketing, and the widely accepted idea that women control most of the spending.

It is not uniquely one-sided between men and women, as it is between, say, American-in-Japan and Japanese-in-Japan; but the backlash against anti-female sexism has rendered overtly claiming women don't know anything and need to seek the advice of their husbands/brothers/etc before making a decision substantially less visible. Mechanics may assume that women don't know about cars, but they generally at least refrain from saying so to a woman's face.

It is socially acceptable to be blatantly sexist and presume that a wife's voice carries more weight in talking about:

• Clothing, both male and female.
• Kitchen appliances, with the notable exception of outdoor grills.
• Food itself.
• Medical supplies and nutrition supplements - anything health related.
• Furniture, and anything else related to interior design, home decor, et cetera.
• Plants, flowers, fencing, and anything else related to exterior design.
• The actual layout and design of domiciles themselves.
• School supplies.
• Luggage.
• Anything intended for use by or for children.
• Anything intended for use by adults inside the bedroom.

The list of things on which ignoring women in favor of the men around them is anywhere near common, though widely frowned-upon, looks something like this:

• Recreational electronics and computers.
• Cars.
• Outdoor grills.
• Guns and other hunting / fishing related things.

Even if I asked the questions. I'm the one viewed with some suspicion, how I dress and what I do are fair game for comments (Sometimes very unwanted),

Criticize a woman's clothes to her face and you will be called either a bitch (if you're a woman), misogynist (if you're a man), or insensitive (if you are a bona fide fashion expert).

Criticize a man's clothes to his face and he's expected to accept it sheepishly.

And what they do? Balance is still the same way. I see people treating men's attire and hobbies as fair game more often than they treat women's attire and hobbies as fair game.

and of course people in Japan seem to assume that if you're here and a foreigner, you MUST just WANT to talk to them, any time, to provide a free English lesson (This can get rather interesting, such as the time when a very nice old gentleman stopped me to talk in English... while we both were waiting for a urinal to open in the restroom).

Some of my complaints kinda sound like what women say, ne?

And some of your complaints sound like what men say.

You really don't notice unless it is gone. That's why I discount the notion that male privilege doesn't exist, because how would we actually know?

By paying closer attention.

Privileges are not inherently invisible. They just require some effort to see and notice. Japan is widely regarded as much more sexist than the US; but from what you said, being a foreigner is more important than being male, when it comes to being taken seriously.

You assume that you didn't notice your male Privilege^TM - still aren't directly conscious of it - because you wouldn't know it unless you lost it, but the exact same argument would apply to female Privilege^TM. In the case where Privilege^TM is genuinely invisible to those who have it, it would actually be impossible to discern which of two distinct groups had Privilege^TM. This is not a consistent, coherent, or sensible ideology.

Real advantages can be noticed and can be quantified, even when you yourself are the beneficiary of them. We don't tend to notice them because of an assortment of biases. But when I look at the men I grew up with and the women I grew up with, it is damnably certain that claiming that men possess Privilege^TM as a class is wholly inappropriate. Like most men and women in my age cohort across the United States, my proximate geographic peer group, coming out of the class of similar environments with similar resources for primary and secondary education, social network development, et cetera, is one in which women have higher household income, higher educational attainment, and are substantially less likely to be dead, imprisoned, or scraping by beneath the "glass floor."

[Tahar Joblis]

Listen, this is how it is. We saw a glimpse of an argument, filmed and uploaded by an MRA from an MRA's perspective. They WANT you to have a bad perspective of her. She hasn't done shit wrong, in fact, what I gathered from that footage was that what they didn't want people to see was, that people were constantly talking over her, and that she had probably been harassed on that same day by other people.

So because she was talking over other people loudly, angrily, and rudely, you assume that she must have been harassed and talked over in order for her to do so.

I have a simpler explanation. She was rude, loud, angry, and tries to shout people down because this is how she normally acts. She - rather like you, here on the relative safety of NSG - is intolerant of anything resembling critical discussion of issues affecting men that happens outside the designated feminist monopoly on gendered issues. And she - perhaps unlike you - acts that way IRL, when face to face with people.

Is it that hard to believe that she has the courage to act the way you and your pals do here on NSG, out in meatspace? That she would prefer to just shut up everybody who disagrees with you?

her personal info has been posted up on A Voice For Men and not taken down (A Voice For Men actively promotes this behavior)

Interestingly, in fact checking your claim that AVFM spread her identity and approves of personally harassing her, AVFM has in fact requested that people not identify her by her real name.

Funny, isn't it, how little effort it takes to demonstrate that you're relying on bad information, no less distorted than you claim the OP's information is?

They want you to think the feminist group is a bunch of bullies or that they want to silence "free speech",

Illegally pulling a fire alarm, barricading exits, getting together a large group of masked individuals after making threats of violence to beat sticks on the ground, chanting and making lots of noise in order to try to drown out an academic talk and intimidate the speakers, audience members, et cetera is bullying and is attempting to silence free speech.

to distract you from the blatant and overwhelming reality of the situation. Which is the women are silenced and talked over and beaten for having an opinion all the time,

Women are beaten less often than men. Simple fact of reality.

And women's voices are heard more than men's voices on these issues. Another simple fact of reality.

the various MRA organizations and A Voice For Men actively take offensive measures against women who try to take a stand,

You mean like ... acting like a bunch of hooligans when a feminist is invited to talk at a university?

Oh, wait. Feminists are trying to shut down the conversation by targeting public figures for character assassination the moment they say anything that could be perceived as non-feminist. Forcing out a Harvard president for laying out the case for men being more variable than women as one of several hypotheses for why women are underrepresented in science, say. For what was, ultimately, a fairly innocuous discussion of actual research, rather than hating women or endorsing discrimination against women.

and in this media frenzy

MRAs are almost entirely ignored by the media.

Not so feminists.

THAT is silencing.

You have that backwards.

[The Truth and Light]

Is it that hard to believe that she has the courage to act the way you and your pals do here on NSG, out in meatspace? That she would prefer to just shut up everybody who disagrees with you?

Blatant sophism and slanting of information, borderlining on ad-hominem.

I'm not going to entertain a discussion with someone who uses blatant lying as a tactic.

[The Truth and Light]

Interestingly, in fact checking your claim that AVFM spread her identity and approves of personally harassing her, AVFM has in fact requested that people not identify her by her real name.

And for the record, AVFM did not have her information taken down, as you would have known had you looked at my article.

It's a moot point anyway, her info was posted there by the members and kept there long enough for it to be disseminated across the internet, so the site is pretty much to blame for this no matter what type of half-assed band-aid they tried to use after the fact.

Not that you give a shit, I'm just a misandrist who seeks to silence anyone who disagrees with me.

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Interestingly, in fact checking your claim that AVFM spread her identity and approves of personally harassing her, AVFM has in fact requested that people not identify her by her real name.

And for the record, AVFM did not have her information taken down, as you would have known had you looked at my article.

It's a moot point anyway, her info was posted there by the members and kept there long enough for it to be disseminated across the internet, so the site is pretty much to blame for this no matter what type of half-assed band-aid they tried to use after the fact.

Not that you give a shit, I'm just a misandrist who seeks to silence anyone who disagrees with me.

You're not a misandrist, but you are defending them too much.

I am criticizing both sides because both their actions seem bad to me. I am a pacifist and I would rather talk things out with you rather than put up protests and burn down your house for your disagreement.

Her info being posted was stupid, and the people who did it are a bunch of morons. It doesn't mean what this feminist group did was really swell either.

[The Truth and Light]

And for the record, AVFM did not have her information taken down, as you would have known had you looked at my article.

It's a moot point anyway, her info was posted there by the members and kept there long enough for it to be disseminated across the internet, so the site is pretty much to blame for this no matter what type of half-assed band-aid they tried to use after the fact.

Not that you give a shit, I'm just a misandrist who seeks to silence anyone who disagrees with me.

You're not a misandrist, but you are defending them too much.

I am criticizing both sides because both their actions seem bad to me. I am a pacifist and I would rather talk things out with you rather than put up protests and burn down your house for your disagreement.

Her info being posted was stupid, and the people who did it are a bunch of morons. It doesn't mean what this feminist group did was really swell either.

I appreciate that you're trying to be neutral, but I still don't think the first sentence is accurate in this context.

But what-the-fuck-ever. The post I made was about the severe backlash and endangerment faced by these protesters, and how this represents a widespread cultural trend. Can we stay on point please? With less derailing? Hmm?

[Soldati Senza Confini]

You're not a misandrist, but you are defending them too much.

I am criticizing both sides because both their actions seem bad to me. I am a pacifist and I would rather talk things out with you rather than put up protests and burn down your house for your disagreement.

Her info being posted was stupid, and the people who did it are a bunch of morons. It doesn't mean what this feminist group did was really swell either.

I appreciate that you're trying to be neutral, but I still don't think the first sentence is accurate in this context.

But what-the-fuck-ever. The post I made was about the severe backlash and endangerment faced by these protesters, and how this represents a widespread cultural trend. Can we stay on point please? With less derailing? Hmm?

Sure

As for the severe backlash and endangerment faced by the protesters you are right, while what they did was wrong they did not deserve this amount of backlash (I mean specifically the death threats and other crap from the MRAs, everyone is entitled to their opinion and trust me, most people would backlash at the perceived violence from both groups, since we are children of the Enlightenment still).

And I may have misinterpreted your intentions in this on what you have been saying so far

[Tahar Joblis]

Interestingly, in fact checking your claim that AVFM spread her identity and approves of personally harassing her, AVFM has in fact requested that people not identify her by her real name.

And for the record, AVFM did not have her information taken down, as you would have known had you looked at my article.

A "defunct online dating profile" that 404s is not, in fact, the sort of "personal information" that people are generally concerned about. No Facebook, MySpace, LinkedIn, employment history, or the like? No phone calls to her employer demanding that she be fired?

If there's anything under "Big Red" (their name for her) linking to a non-public profile that doesn't 404 on the AVFM forums, it's in a non-publicly-viewable section or particularly hard to find. I spent a few minutes with the search function, so feel free to prove the existence of any personal information of hers that AVFM has failed to take down, but I'm pretty sure there is in fact nothing there.

So, in the mean time, I'm going to reasonably conclude that the article you posted has all the factual content of Glenn Beck foaming at the mouth after receiving an LSD-laced enema and a sharp blow to the head with a fire axe.

It's a moot point anyway, her info was posted there by the members and kept there long enough

No, it matters. You're claiming that AVFM endorses promulgating her personal information.

You do so in spite of the fact that AVFM posted a notice that any such posts would be deleted two days before the article you linked to was written, and that the "still visible" claim does not, in fact, refer to any actual personal information posted on AVFM. There is no sign of AVFM endorsing what you claimed they endorsed; and in fact no sign that AVFM has provided any more personal information about the loudmouth in question than could be obtained by any reader of the Manboobz article.

[Choronzon]

In the mean time, I'm going to reasonably conclude that the article you posted has all the factual content of Glenn Beck foaming at the mouth after receiving an LSD-laced enema and a sharp blow to the head with a fire axe.

"I don't like it so its not truuuuuuuue!"

[The Truth and Light]

I appreciate that you're trying to be neutral, but I still don't think the first sentence is accurate in this context.

But what-the-fuck-ever. The post I made was about the severe backlash and endangerment faced by these protesters, and how this represents a widespread cultural trend. Can we stay on point please? With less derailing? Hmm?

Sure

As for the severe backlash and endangerment faced by the protesters you are right, while what they did was wrong they did not deserve this amount of backlash (I mean specifically the death threats and other crap from the MRAs, everyone is entitled to their opinion and trust me, most people would backlash at the perceived violence from both groups, since we are children of the Enlightenment still).

And I may have misinterpreted your intentions in this on what you have been saying so far

What I'm trying to get across here is that, even when feminists are taking completely pacifist approaches, they are still screamed at and the backlash is intense no matter what they do. This protest, although not very peaceful, is an example of this.

I remember one time a young feminist woman posted a video response to one of the Amazing Atheist's videos, and he made an entire video slamming her and insulting her mental capacities, and the comment section was rife with resounding stench of misogyny and arrogant dismissal of what she had to say.

That is what it's like to be a feminist. I know you've probably heard otherwise, but it's very hard for us to find a safe space and for us to get anyone to listen to what we have to say.

[Tahar Joblis]

In the mean time, I'm going to reasonably conclude that the article you posted has all the factual content of Glenn Beck foaming at the mouth after receiving an LSD-laced enema and a sharp blow to the head with a fire axe.

"I don't like it so its not truuuuuuuue!"

Got a demonstration that its central thesis - that MRA organizations are orchestrating a volley of death/rape/etc threats against the person in question in order to silence them - is in fact true rather than paranoid ranting?

Or even a demonstration that the people responding unreasonably negatively to her outnumber the people responding unreasonably positively to her?

[Tahar Joblis]

What I'm trying to get across here is that, even when feminists are taking completely pacifist approaches, they are still screamed at and the backlash is intense no matter what they do.

And what I can tell you is that no matter how moderate and polite you are, if you are viewed as an MRA, you will be screamed at, and the backlash is intense no matter what you do.

I have grown, of course, rather less polite over the last several years, but any position viewed as an MRA position - not even necessarily even an authentic "MRA" position - will get an intense, emotional, and very vigorous backlash. Disproportionately so.