[PASSED] Liberate Christmas

[Eist]

You'll give them the password for the founder? Because, you know, the founder literally holds all of the power in a region.

Oh absolutely. We'll do all the work to refound the region, to make it safe and secure. We'll help them create an offsite forum and help them participate in a regional government if they want it. And then after we've spent all of our energy doing what they would not do for themselves, we'll just hand over the password to the Founder account so that the Founder can CTE and the region will be founderless all over again.

While we're at it, we'll hand over the password to the Asgard Founder account too. It's the least we can do.

[/sarcasm]

You totally had me fooled there! I would have never known if you hadn't posted the fake tag at the end of your post! You must be in comedy or politics or something.

Anyway, this pathetic argument is now over. Asgard, as was always knew, have no intention of not controlling the region. That is unacceptable, therefore I continue to support any opportunity to pry it from their cold, malicious grasp.

[Cormac Stark]

You totally had me fooled there! I would have never known if you hadn't posted the fake tag at the end of your post! You must be in comedy or politics or something.

Anyway, this pathetic argument is now over. Asgard, as was always knew, have no intention of not controlling the region. That is unacceptable, therefore I continue to support any opportunity to pry it from their cold, malicious grasp.

That is a ludicrous argument. By your logic, the founders of all foundered regions should hand over the passwords to their Founder accounts to every native and let anarchy ensue -- otherwise they are cold, malicious dictators who deserve to be smacked around by the Security Council.

Asgard is more than willing to help natives establish a regional government and to allow it to function with relative autonomy. But we will not be handing over the password to the Founder account. And this is all premature in any event as the natives of Christmas have been very inactive and have expressed zero interest in a regional government or even in taking control of their own region by electing a WA Regional Delegate.

[Mahaj]

You totally had me fooled there! I would have never known if you hadn't posted the fake tag at the end of your post! You must be in comedy or politics or something.

Anyway, this pathetic argument is now over. Asgard, as was always knew, have no intention of not controlling the region. That is unacceptable, therefore I continue to support any opportunity to pry it from their cold, malicious grasp.

That is a ludicrous argument. By your logic, the founders of all foundered regions should hand over the passwords to their Founder accounts to every native and let anarchy ensue -- otherwise they are cold, malicious dictators who deserve to be smacked around by the Security Council.

Except those founders are natives, while you are not.

[Eist]

You totally had me fooled there! I would have never known if you hadn't posted the fake tag at the end of your post! You must be in comedy or politics or something.

Anyway, this pathetic argument is now over. Asgard, as was always knew, have no intention of not controlling the region. That is unacceptable, therefore I continue to support any opportunity to pry it from their cold, malicious grasp.

That is a ludicrous argument. By your logic, the founders of all foundered regions should hand over the passwords to their Founder accounts to every native and let anarchy ensue -- otherwise they are cold, malicious dictators who deserve to be smacked around by the Security Council.

Asgard is more than willing to help natives establish a regional government and to allow it to function with relative autonomy. But we will not be handing over the password to the Founder account. And this is all premature in any event as the natives of Christmas have been very inactive and have expressed zero interest in a regional government or even in taking control of their own region by electing a WA Regional Delegate.

Really?

Founders are by their very nature the first ones to enter a region. Every single other nation has chosen to be there through their own free will. They have chosen to be led by that founder. When I moved to 10000 Islands, I knew that Grub controlled the region. I chose that. You, on the other hand, offer no choice. "You are/were a native here, you may have lived here semi-free from hassle (albeit, the occasional raid) for years, sure, but now we are taking over. Deal with it or find another region."

Do you see the difference. It is actually very simple.

[Mahaj]

Now at vote!

Votes For: 1 (100%)

Votes Against: 0 (0%)

too bad it won't hold like that.

[United Dependencies]

Unless someone can provide evidence of the natives of christmas are widely upset at this invasion, the government of the royal federation does not see this invasion as a destructive one but instead as an action that could boost this region's activity. Indeed, the invaders seem to be treating the natives with some modicum of respect so far.

However, as delegate for the entire region of North Carolina, we will be holding off our vote until further opinions are collected.

So: We oppose in word, but are not yet ready to vote against this resolution.

[Xanthal]

Mahaj's motives in submitting the Liberation proposal are beside the point. Christmas is under foreign occupation, and the invaders have expressly announced their intent to destroy the region and remake it in their own image. The invaders themselves concede their occupation is taking place against the wishes of native countries. Xanthal regards this situation as unacceptable. Absent further evidence our policy on Liberations would seem to indicate a clear decision. The Federation votes for the proposal in question.

Riley Fluffer

[Fynnbays]

Excuse me, but the UDL wanted to liberate Alliance of Socialist States because the natives didn't want the Red Army there. Little Basses specifically telegrammed me to ask for the UDL to liberate the region. Unfortunately, we were unable to liberate, but Little Basses has taken the opportunity to change the password so that it is relatively safe from invaders, including left-leaning ones, in the future.

Why didn't he contact any RF asking them to stop? Why didn't he reply to their telegrams wondering if they wanted him to stop? If Little Basses really did want a password on, why hasn't he took it off? It is now secure against future aggression from raiders, something which the UDL couldn't do. Also proof of little basses wanting UDL help. Seeing as Mahaj was so keen on a little proof earlier.

Yes, because if there's anything the Security Council should be doing, it's giving the aggressors the shadow of the doubt instead of the natives and, of course, giving an "oops!", when a little oversight like a group's region slipping into the hands of imperialists.

Better than it being held ransom to the UDL.

EDIT: I'm dragging this off-topic, I'm opposed to this resolution

[Sacred Yggdrasil]

The invaders themselves concede their occupation is taking place against the wishes of native countries. Xanthal regards this situation as unacceptable. Absent further evidence our policy on Liberations would seem to indicate a clear decision. The Federation votes for the proposal in question.

You are simply mistaken as no native nation has expressed the type of position you suggested. I assume it has been a misinterpretation or ambiguous statements that have led to that conclusion being drawn, so I hope this clears it up.

[Albioney]

This is ridiculous. I'm opposing this.

[Unibot II]

The invaders themselves concede their occupation is taking place against the wishes of native countries. Xanthal regards this situation as unacceptable. Absent further evidence our policy on Liberations would seem to indicate a clear decision. The Federation votes for the proposal in question.

You are simply mistaken as no native nation has expressed the type of position you suggested. I assume it has been a misinterpretation or ambiguous statements that have led to that conclusion being drawn, so I hope this clears it up.

I believe that Xanthal is simply suggesting the benefit of the doubt should lie in the natives, not the invaders. I imagine Asgard disagrees, being the purveyor of the native will.

[HRH]

Why should we support invaders when the natives dont want it? As a point of principle I say even if they are not currently part of the WA or Security Council we simply should not let these sort of events to occur. It's quite shameful to turn our back on the natives. Anyone supporting this type of invation should hang their heads in shame

[Xanthal]

You are simply mistaken as no native nation has expressed the type of position you suggested. I assume it has been a misinterpretation or ambiguous statements that have led to that conclusion being drawn, so I hope this clears it up.

I believe that Xanthal is simply suggesting the benefit of the doubt should lie in the natives, not the invaders. I imagine Asgard disagrees, being the purveyor of the native will. :roll:

OOC: Actually, I simply misread a double negative, but Unibot's assertion of Xanthal's criteria for judging these situations is nevertheless correct; benefit of the doubt goes in favor of Liberation.

[New Sideburn]

The bearded menfolk of Asgard appear to be men of great honour and power. It seems to me wise to keep such lesser, arguably outdated regions in their care. To 'liberate' this colony would be, ultimately, to destroy it. And if Asgard DOES prove unworthy guardians for the land, then there is no alternative save to destroy THEM through force of arms.

[Sichuan Pepper]

I would imagine Asgard proved themselves unworthy when they invaded.

[New Sideburn]

Pot! Kettle! A strong invasion shows an iron fist and a unified will, nothing more.

Perhaps a little bloodlust on the side, but c'mon, that's what makes life interesting.

[Nationalist State of Knox]

Why the hell is everybody bothered by this? What's the point in raiding it in the first place, let alone defend it?

Let the raiders waste their time raiding this dead puppet dump, and just forget about it.

[Delegate Vinage]

I, Lothar Prolark, World Assembly Delegate and Vice President of Europeia will be voting NAY on this proposal after a 2/12 internal vote decided said action. The resolution is inaccurate to what has transpired and, well, this and the messages sent along to Delegates smack of point-scoring rather than an actual concern for the region. Perhaps the author is upset they won't get an invite to Christmas for the festivities? Anyway, yes, we will be voting Nay.

[Tibberiria]

The region was inactive prior to this, correct? If so, then what's the big deal?

Voted No.

[Zintai]

It's completely possible to establish a community in a founderless region. And if any of the natives wanted the protection of a founder, they could have refounded it at any time.

I may not be the most experienced member of the World Assembly, but I do know what it's called when a group moves into a region in force, takes the delegate seat, password protects it, and ejects all the natives. And it isn't called "protection."

[Damanucus]

Hmmm, research seems to establish a question towards the region itself. For those in curiosity, the question is not, "does this region even require a liberation?" but more "what would be the result in either direction of the liberation?"

The answer to that question comes straight from the Factbook: it is the central region for Christmas-related activities. And this is an honourable position to hold, hopefully one that may earn the region a commendation. However, the only way this can be achieved is if the region is held independent of all others. Maybe even establish it as a puppet region. The invasion by Asgard doesn't seem to fit with this ideal of an independent Christmas region, and should this liberation fail that will forever be the case.

What if the liberation succeeds, and the region expires on its own? It's not a nice thought to have, and certainly not one which we intend to strive for, but sadly, if it comes to that, then we cannot say we didn't try. That we didn't try to save a region from possible bias and external pressures in regards to the arrangement of certain festivities. That we didn't try to help re-establish a neutral regional body for the arrangement of such activities. That we didn't try—as ironic and cliche as this'll sound—to save Christmas.

My vote sits for this liberation.

Stephanie Orman
Representative, Nomadic Peoples of Damanucus

[Yes Im Biop]

Opposed. Do you have areal reason for wanting them adulterated?

[Of the Free Socialist Territories]

Hey there!
I submitted a proposal called Liberate Christmas, and I need your support! 1) Christmas is in danger of being stolen and kept as a trophy, and the native community, the people who like you worked hard to build their region, 2) are getting their hard work destroyed by petty bullies. NationStates as a whole needs to step up and protect its members, 3) and you play a vital role in this.
4) Please, don't let Christmas get stolen, Approve Liberate Christmas!
Thanks,
Mahaj

1) Here's the WFE of Christmas:
"Founded over two years ago by Santas helper, Christmas was annexed as a colony of Asgard on 19 July 2012. It is now the cultural hub of NationStates for Christmas and other festivities related to winter holidays.

This region is in the process of being refounded. Asgard encourages and hopes for an active and thriving native population and we invite all natives to return to Christmas after the refounding process is complete."

That's not the wanton destruction of a regional community, that's the refounding of a region to protect it from further raiding after which point the natives will be allowed to return.

2) Which is more petty, invading a region with the intent to refound and revitalise a community and allow natives back post-refound, or attempting to pass an SC resolution to gain another pretty badge and some point-scoring over other SC proposal authors? I reckon the latter personally.

3) My WA puppet is currently in the process of very energetically destroying another community, it's not in my interests to vote for this.

4) For the reasons above:

No.

Mahaj, did you consult any of the natives on this?

That said, I'd probably support this, simply because re-founding will deny us the chance to see which raiders are dedicated/obsessed enough to take part in the annual Christmas Eve raid.

We can see from this that if Mahaj's "Liberation" passes then Christmas will merely continue being raided for sport. A defender aiding raiding. Oh, the irony.

[Cromarty]

1) Here's the WFE of Christmas:
"Founded over two years ago by Santas helper, Christmas was annexed as a colony of Asgard on 19 July 2012. It is now the cultural hub of NationStates for Christmas and other festivities related to winter holidays.

This region is in the process of being refounded. Asgard encourages and hopes for an active and thriving native population and we invite all natives to return to Christmas after the refounding process is complete."

That's not the wanton destruction of a regional community, that's the refounding of a region to protect it from further raiding after which point the natives will be allowed to return.

And we're to take what Asgard says at face value becuase...?

2) Which is more petty, invading a region with the intent to refound and revitalise a community and allow natives back post-refound, or attempting to pass an SC resolution to gain another pretty badge and some point-scoring over other SC proposal authors? I reckon the latter personally.

1. Prove the bold is the case.
2. Prove the underlined is the case.

[Skyrim Diplomacy]

As previously mentioned, I will be voting AGAINST this proposal in my power as WA Delegate of Skyrim. The lack of native activity in the region in question gives our delegation no reason to remove the password at this time. Furthermore, we see this Liberation proposal as a last-ditch effort by the UDL to "save" another region they could not protect in the first place.