IBC Discussion Thread (OOC, V2)

by **International Basketball Organization** » Fri May 12, 2017 9:22 am

INTERNATIONAL BASKETBALL CHAMPIONSHIPS
OOC Discussion Thread

Hey everyone! This is basically the replacement for the old Discussion thread with the CTE OP. This way, we'll have constant links to the ranks and the committee and the constitution in right in the beginning of the OP, so we don't have to dig for them. So let's discuss the IBC, then!

I also intend to have links to all the IBC threads here eventually, I'll dig through the forum to find them in a day or two.

International Basketball OOC Thread (Now Defunct)
NSCAA Discussion Thread (For College Fans)
IUBC Thread (Domestic Leagues)
Wikipedia Article on Basketball

Current IBO Ranks (Post IBC 28)

by **International Basketball Organization** » Fri May 12, 2017 9:22 am

International Basketball Organization (IBO) Constitution

Article I: IBO Eligibility

Section 1: To be a member of the IBO, a nation must have posted a roster and at least 1 RP in each of the previous 2 IBCs.

Section 2: Nations which do not post a roster for 2 consecutive IBCs will lose their membership.

Section 3: Any previous hosts of the IBC are automatically members of the IBO, so long as they successfully hosted the tournament to its conclusion and posted a roster in the most recently completed edition of the IBC.

Article II: Rights and Responsibilities of the Membership

Section 1: The IBO membership shall be the voters for the next Host of the IBC and shall choose from among the available bids and the option to reopen host bids.

Section 2: The IBO shall be the determining body for changes, (ie: repealing, amending or introduction of new rules), to the IBO Constitution. A two-thirds majority shall be needed to amend or repeal any part of the Constitution, but a simple majority vote shall be sufficient for introduction of new rules to the Constitution.

Section 3: The IBO membership is responsible for maintaining the integrity of the IBC and for advertising of the same.

Section 4: Only 1 IBO member nation may be controlled by the same user at any given time. Membership may be transferred, at any time, to another nation controlled by the same user.

Section 5: The IBO membership shall be held to any subsequent rights and/or responsibilities that are created henceforth into the IBO Constitution.

Article III: President of the IBO

Section 1: The IBO will be headed by a president who will be elected by the membership, using the same election procedures as outlined in Article V.

Section 2: The president will be elected after every third International Basketball Championship, and will serve terms of three IBCs.

Section 3: Any IBO member may nominate any other IBO member for the Presidency. All members who are nominated for President will be placed before the IBO as candidates for the Presidency unless they state that they do not wish to serve as President.

Section 4: The president's duties are the following: opening the sign-up thread; opening and collecting host voting; opening and collecting constitutional proposal voting; keeping the membership list updated; and making any other arbitrary decisions which are not fit to be decided by the organization as a whole.

Section 5: The president must appoint a vice-president to serve in his/her absence. If the president goes missing for an extended period of time, or ceases to exist, the vice-president has the right to step up and serve as the president pro tempore.

Section 6: The president may be impeached under the procedures of Article IV. If the president is impeached and removed from the IBO, the vice-president becomes the new president.

Article IV: Impeachment Procedures

Section 1: In order to initiate impeachment and/or removal from office proceedings against a current member of the International Basketball Organization, another member in good standing must motion for impeachment. If a different member seconds the motion, the member is considered impeached.

Section 2: In the event that an IBO member is impeached, the full membership shall have one RL week to discuss whether or not to remove the impeached member. During that period, the impeached member is still considered a full voting member of the IBO on any items other than those involving the impeachment proceedings.

Section 3: The IBO president shall initiate the removal vote, which shall only take place in the event two thirds of votes cast are in favour of removal from office. If the president is the one being impeached, the vice-president shall serve the same role as the president for the purposes of this section.

Section 4: In the event that two third of votes cast are in favor of removal from office, the IBO member shall be removed from the IBO with immediate effect for a period of two International Basketball Championships. At the end of the two International Basketball Championship period, the member may petition to rejoin the IBO and initiate a plan to address any concerns outlined in the impeachment proceedings.

Section 5: Any IBO member removed due to impeachment proceedings must be nominated to rejoin the IBO and must be formally seconded. If that occurs, the IBO may vote on readmission. If a simple majority of votes cast are in favor of readmission, the impeached member shall rejoin the IBO with immediate effect.

Article V: Voting Procedures

Section 1: For an IBO vote to be considered valid, a motion must have a simple majority of votes cast.

Section 2: Any measure that receives the votes of one more than half the active IBO membership shall be automatically approved.

Article VI: Rankings

Section 1: All editions of the IBC must use the latest version of the World Basketball Rankings.

Section 2: The World Basketball Rankings shall be maintained by a ranking keeper approved by the president.

Section 3: No tournaments other than official editions of the IBC shall count toward the World Basketball Rankings.

Section 4: The ranking formula for the World Basketball Rankings shall be as follows:
Clause a. The base formula for the rankings for every round of the IBC will be (wins+1) divided by games played and multiplied by a multiplier
Clause b. The multiplier shall be identical to the number of the round.
Clause c. Teams that receive a bye through a given round shall be credited with 1 win and 1 game played for that round.
Clause d. A team's total ranking shall be made up of 4 components. Those are: A) their previous ranking multiplied by 0.33; B) the total of their ranking points for all rounds from the most recent IBC; C) half of the total of their ranking points for all rounds from the second most recent IBC; D) a quarter of the total of their ranking points for all rounds from the third most recent IBC
Clause e. All nations whose total ranking is less than that of the lowest ranked nation that competed in any of the last 3 IBCs shall be removed from the rankings.

Article VII: Miscellaneous Procedures

Section 1: When creating the signup thread, the thread creator is to provide (at minimum) a link to the winning bid of the last International Basketball Championship and set a definitive deadline for when host bids must be received by.

International Basketball Organization (IBO) Constitution

Article I: IBO Eligibility

Section 1: To be a member of the IBO, a nation must have posted a roster and at least 1 RP in each of the previous 2 IBCs.

Section 2: Nations which do not post a roster for 2 consecutive IBCs will lose their membership.

Section 3: Any previous hosts of the IBC are automatically members of the IBO, so long as they successfully hosted the tournament to its conclusion and posted a roster in the most recently completed edition of the IBC.

Article II: Rights and Responsibilities of the Membership

Section 1: The IBO membership shall be the voters for the next Host of the IBC and shall choose from among the available bids and the option to reopen host bids.

Section 2: The IBO shall be the determining body for changes, (ie: repealing, amending or introduction of new rules), to the IBO Constitution. A two-thirds majority shall be needed to amend or repeal any part of the Constitution, but a simple majority vote shall be sufficient for introduction of new rules to the Constitution.

Section 3: The IBO membership is responsible for maintaining the integrity of the IBC and for advertising of the same.

Section 4: Only 1 IBO member nation may be controlled by the same user at any given time. Membership may be transferred, at any time, to another nation controlled by the same user.

Section 5: The IBO membership shall be held to any subsequent rights and/or responsibilities that are created henceforth into the IBO Constitution.

Article III: President of the IBO

Section 1: The IBO will be headed by a president who will be elected by the membership, using the same election procedures as outlined in Article V.

Section 2: The president will be elected after every third International Basketball Championship, and will serve terms of three IBCs.

Section 3: Any IBO member may nominate any other IBO member for the Presidency. All members who are nominated for President will be placed before the IBO as candidates for the Presidency unless they state that they do not wish to serve as President.

Section 4: The president's duties are the following: opening the sign-up thread; opening and collecting host voting; opening and collecting constitutional proposal voting; keeping the membership list updated; and making any other arbitrary decisions which are not fit to be decided by the organization as a whole.

Section 5: The president must appoint a vice-president to serve in his/her absence. If the president goes missing for an extended period of time, or ceases to exist, the vice-president has the right to step up and serve as the president pro tempore.

Section 6: The president may be impeached under the procedures of Article IV. If the president is impeached and removed from the IBO, the vice-president becomes the new president.

Article IV: Impeachment Procedures

Section 1: In order to initiate impeachment and/or removal from office proceedings against a current member of the International Basketball Organization, another member in good standing must motion for impeachment. If a different member seconds the motion, the member is considered impeached.

Section 2: In the event that an IBO member is impeached, the full membership shall have one RL week to discuss whether or not to remove the impeached member. During that period, the impeached member is still considered a full voting member of the IBO on any items other than those involving the impeachment proceedings.

Section 3: The IBO president shall initiate the removal vote, which shall only take place in the event two thirds of votes cast are in favour of removal from office. If the president is the one being impeached, the vice-president shall serve the same role as the president for the purposes of this section.

Section 4: In the event that two third of votes cast are in favor of removal from office, the IBO member shall be removed from the IBO with immediate effect for a period of two International Basketball Championships. At the end of the two International Basketball Championship period, the member may petition to rejoin the IBO and initiate a plan to address any concerns outlined in the impeachment proceedings.

Section 5: Any IBO member removed due to impeachment proceedings must be nominated to rejoin the IBO and must be formally seconded. If that occurs, the IBO may vote on readmission. If a simple majority of votes cast are in favor of readmission, the impeached member shall rejoin the IBO with immediate effect.

Article V: Voting Procedures

Section 1: For an IBO vote to be considered valid, a motion must have a simple majority of votes cast.

Section 2: Any measure that receives the votes of one more than half the active IBO membership shall be automatically approved.

Article VI: Rankings

Section 1: All editions of the IBC must use the latest version of the World Basketball Rankings.

Section 2: The World Basketball Rankings shall be maintained by a ranking keeper approved by the president.

Section 3: No tournaments other than official editions of the IBC shall count toward the World Basketball Rankings.

Section 4: The ranking formula for the World Basketball Rankings shall be as follows:
Clause a. The base points for each team per IBC shall be the sum of these 3 components:
--A) Group Stage Wins/Group Stage Games Played multiplied by 5
--B) An additional point given to all teams which make the playoffs of concerned IBC
--C) An additional point given to a team for each playoff series it wins
Clause b. Playoff rounds in which some teams receive byes shall still be counted in the rankings (i.e. Rounds of 24).
Clause c. A team's total ranking shall be the sum of these 3 components:
--A) total ranking points from the most recent IBC doubled
--B) total ranking points from the second most recent IBC
--C) total ranking points from the third most recent IBC halved
Clause d. All nations which have not competed in the last 3 IBCs shall be removed from the rankings.
Clause e. All nations with a 0.00 ranking which have participated in at least 1 of the last 3 IBCs shall not be removed from the rankings for Pot placement purposes.

Article VII: Miscellaneous Procedures

Section 1: When creating the signup thread, the thread creator is to provide (at minimum) a link to the winning bid of the last International Basketball Championship and set a definitive deadline for when host bids must be received by.

by **Drawkland** » Fri May 12, 2017 9:41 am

Vangaziland wrote:But I am serious. And I do feel insulted that people are insinuating the top teams have coasted. Especially when I can see nations and remember how maybe they didn't post as often. So, I don't know what to say.

But I am not saying anything unreasonable. Nothing should be inflammatory. It is the truth. There is the big secret; RPing enough to get the max bonus or as close as the host's grading allows you to helps.

The last part is true. Yes, one will have to write harder to get that RP bonus. But it will be more fair. And people would rather just "nerf" the few people who put more in over a longer time.

Read STK's last few seasons in the IBC and tell me he deserves to be nerfed. Same with Abahnfleft. Same with Abaja. Same with some others. I missed two, but check my 3 seasons before my good one. It's really not something people should take personal. I am simply speaking in a direct manner. There is no sugar within me to coat things.

If nobody took a stand to make it completely clear, it would get whitewashed by popular opinion. But popular opinion is not always true. It is what is popular.

Vangaziland wrote:If I RP'd more this season, I would have probably went farther by beating EOC. Something that is NOT guaranteed. Then maybe I would have hit the top 4 in the tourney and maybe gotten a ton of points. If so, I might have been in the top 2 in rankings now. But the top 3 RP'd enough to build up their RP bonus. They advanced, they built their rank even higher and that is fair. I didn't, I lost. I have 18 points.

So even with me having that difference, I'll say how that is fair.

RP bonus + Rank RP(RP bonus for 3 seasons) = factors influencing rank

If I were to say something about STK's rank, that wouldn't be fair of me. Because he didn't miss the last two seasons. I did. And my rank evened out. It's still high. That 15 points from the season is because I had rankings for 3 seasons where I RP'd every season. Some of the same people who may dislike that, chose not to RP as hard during those 3 seasons. And of those 3, I had one good season and two okay ones. But it averaged out to help me in the coasting edition. I didn't get the rank from coasting for 3 seasons. And that is the implication that insults me.

If one builds up close to the max RP bonus, they will have a leg up. If they have done that for 3 seasons, the leg goes up higher. 3 is more than 1. Now if they RP like 5 times and have a mediocre RP bonus and then can't beat a ranked team, literally, the answer is to RP more. Get the max RP bonus. If STK or someone else is too high, well, they've RP'd more in the past three years.

And the WC has wayyyy more stratification. I dare a new writer to apply to the WC and RP for three seasons. You will need lots of luck and superb RP to make it in the top 30 (still not impossible). And that 30 will be far from equal footing.

Like I said, if you want to put it to a vote that the majority will accept because it will help them, do it. But it's not really more fair or necessary. So do as you will. But don't rip away the rank bonus straight away which people have worked on. Like for what now, 2 years for some of us? Phase it in. Changing the ranking system starting with the next tourney will be fair enough if previous ranks earned legitimately are not ripped away.

How about increasing the RP bonus instead? That works. Caution, one will have to write for that though.

Where did I ever imply that you or anybody else coasted? That wasn't my aim and coating is not the reason I want to change the ranks. I have a few graphs which I'm going to post tonight to show you what I'm talking about.

EDIT: Sorry if this seems short and dismissive, but a lot of my argument I'm going to exemplify with these graphs which I do not have on hand.

As far as the whole RP bonus statement, that's not exactly true. SNT-FFR pretty much summed up what I wanted to say about that:

Free Republics wrote:The problem with the current ranks is that the bonus scale a host needs to use to give anybody outside of the top 4 a realistic chance of winning the tournament is so large that a roster bonus (even on my normal roster bonus scale that is half of my RP bonus scale) gives an unranked team with a roster a higher skill than a ranked team without a roster. If the ranks of the top 4 were not 10-20 times the ranks of the nations that get eliminated in the group stage but merely 3-5 times their ranks, then (at least for me) the RP bonus scale would still be the same relative to the top of the ranks but teams that entered past tournaments and didn't make deep runs in the playoffs would have a higher rank. Its generally not a good idea for hosts to use the same bonus scale for every tournament (but I'm sure there are hosts that do exactly that). In the WBC, a 0-1 bonus scale is very large for a purely cumulative bonus because the top ranked team is somewhere between 4 and 6. In the IBC, a 0-1 bonus scale is extremely small and would effectively guarantee that the #1 ranked team (or the #2 ranked team, in those cycles where the top 2 are relatively close in the rankings) will win the tournament. Generally, you want more than 4 teams to have a shot at winning the tournament (barring some 1 in a million fluke). Right now, if the RP bonus isn't large enough in the IBC, you end up with a similar ratio of realistic contenders to win it all vs entrants as what the soccer WC has (and the soccer WC could be very different if hosts increased the RP bonus and/or brought back full carryover to the finals instead of rank reset w/ small carryover).

Even without a change in the rank formula, it would be possible to bring the ranks closer together with a change in the tournament format to utilize extra group stages or double elimination stages instead of playoffs. If 16 teams qualify to 4 groups (or double elimination pools) of 4 and the winners of those advance to a final group or double elimination pool, you've effectively cut the number of stages from 5 to 3 (and, if you use multiple group stages, potentially shortened the tournament). Another quirk of the rankings is that longer group stages and longer playoff rounds actually reduce the number of rank points earned significantly (because the formula is ((wins + 1)/games played)*round number and that +1 is diluted substantially if you increase games played).

Another option would be to modify the scorinator to increase randomness. Granted, the scorinator arguably needs to be modified anyway (since it produces scores that are appropriate for the 40 minute games used by college and Olympic basketball, not the 48 minute games used by the NBA but many people RP games as having 12 minute quarters). While I've generally advocated for less rand(), not more, some rand() is a good thing and an occasional fluke upset in the knockout rounds is not inherently a bad thing.

Now that I read this again, this is a pretty solid summary of the problem with the ranks or indeed, the scorinator itself.

by **Vangaziland** » Fri May 12, 2017 10:30 am

Just saying hey on the new thread and that I hope everyone enjoys the IBC, regardless of the outcome. There will be many good seasons ahead and either way, it should be fun.

I'll mention my point one last time, RP more. The charts are inaccurate because like 70-80 percent have not RP'd as much as possible. So some teams will stand out.

But my concern isn't bigger than that. To really improve this tourney, give people incentive to RP more. If winning is the only reason people RP, then make the changes. I'm not as bothered as people think, just emphatic at times.

But the world does what it wants so this won't be a shock to me.

I look forward to the next season and all the other leagues as well... Genuinely. Here's to 50 more pages of honest discussion and RP b-ball.

Shout out to my rival, STK. The 90s Bulls to my 90s Knicks... :clap:

by **Ethane** » Fri May 12, 2017 10:41 am

In terms of ranks, I think my performance in the IBC is testament to it needing to be changed.
I have RP'd far from consistently and yet am still in the top 3. I don't deserve to be in the ranking position I am in, and based on my RP levels I should not have such an advantage over the lower teams. If we want to focus on RP, the ranking system does need to be pre-modified to prevent a few teams from dominating, even if they don't RP (eg. me).

by **Empire of Cats** » Fri May 12, 2017 1:19 pm

Saying hi as well and wishing everyone well. Looking forward to what the future will bring!

Last.fm · by **Cosumar** » Fri May 12, 2017 5:56 pm

Well-done to the organizers of this much-needed new thread, but I'll miss the blast from past I got from seeing Dancougar's name on the first page every now and then

by **Saint Kanye** » Fri May 12, 2017 7:30 pm

Vangaziland wrote:Shout out to my rival, STK. The 90s Bulls to my 90s Knicks...

So who's Fleft? The Pistons?

By the way, do tell me when your streetball thread is ready and I'll be there. And do you want new unis for your Royals?

Ethane wrote:In terms of ranks, I think my performance in the IBC is testament to it needing to be changed.
I have RP'd far from consistently and yet am still in the top 3. I don't deserve to be in the ranking position I am in, and based on my RP levels I should not have such an advantage over the lower teams. If we want to focus on RP, the ranking system does need to be pre-modified to prevent a few teams from dominating, even if they don't RP (eg. me).

Your hosting means a lot of effort, that surely counts for something.

Drawk: Concerning CTE teams, I can give you a list.

by **Drawkland** » Fri May 12, 2017 7:32 pm

Alright, so here's the graphs I was talking about. I took the ranks of all the "Big 5" tournaments on NS Sports (IBC, WCoH, WB, WBC, and WC) and made similar graphs of all their ranks. All of these are the entirety of the ranks with the 0-ranked nations removed (in the case of the WCoH and WBC ranks), except the World Cup one, which is only the Top 100 since I didn't want it to be too massive. Let's compare and contrast, shall we?

First, let's look at the World Cup of Hockey, since I mentioned it earlier as a sort of example we should use. In first you can see Valanora and Elejamie, who've pretty much gone back and worth winning the WCoH. They've put in effort, etc., etc., and they're pretty firmly on top. Then you've got Novaya, Quebec, Gregory, and then a group of others who consistently make the playoffs. There's the 2 teams tied for first, and then there's about 10 teams who are around half their rank or higher who have good shots within the playoffs. Even then, there's a gradual curve back into the mediocre and group stage-exiters who don't RP much. Their rank is about 1/10 the Big Shots'. The rankings have been similar, hence why Valanora and Elejamie have gone to the championship several consecutive times thanks to a good effort. They're high, not too high, and still have shots at the title, while the lesser guys are still within striking distance.

We briefly mentioned the World Cup earlier. Let's see these. Sure, you've got Unified Sunrise Islands up there with a bit of a lead on the others, that's after back-to-back championships and then a mid-playoff exit. All the others in the nearby area clearly have a shot at the title despite his dominance (see why Vilita won the most recent World Cup). After the top 16 it drops beneath 30 (max at 54ish), and then it's basically a dozen or so nations at the halfway range. These nations still have a realistic shot with some great RP and a bit of luck. After that it drops a bit, but the fall is gradual and rather slow. Even with the hecticness that is the World Cup, a lot of nations are close to each other in rank and are competitive.

Now let's look at the World Bowl ranks. I like to think of the World Bowl, at least in this current era, as a good "average" tournament. It's not massive like the World Cup and it doesn't have one or two juggernauts like all the other American sports do. See there you have Abanhfleft and I inhabiting the top spots, the two largest columns. Then you've got Schottia, Kaboomlandia, Allamunnic States, and a couple others. The Top 8 are pretty close to the top. The top 16 are all within about 10 points of the #1. After the Top 18 there's a visible cliff there, and then your classic slow descent. But still, that first team from the dropoff, United States of Saints, is at 1/4 of the max rank. These ranks are fair, balanced, and still has room for perennial dominators (such as Abanhfleft and I) while allowing plenty of chance for those in the mid-range who are dedicated to RP.

And then, there's the World Baseball Classic. They're a good comparator, I think. Just like us, they have a highly dedicated member who doesn't do any other tournaments and pretty much dominates (that being Schiltzberg, who set the record for most consecutive titles and tied the record for most total in, what, 6 seasons? 5?). So you have Schiltzberg with a clean lead over anybody else, then you have your Nova Anglicana and Ethane close by. Your top 4 teams are within a point of first (that max being Schiltz at 4.92), and the top 8 teams are within 2 points. Striking distance. Still a bit of a gap for first. Despite this lead, Schiltz hasn't reached the final in the last 2 editions. That's life. He put in the work, and he's had success, and he's hit a bit of a slump. That's life. That's fair. Part of that can be attributed to the complete and utter insanity of the baseball scorinator formula, but there's still clear merit in the fact that Schiltz is powerful but fallible. He doesn't seem to find a problem with this from what I've heard. Back to the rankings anyway, about everyone in the Top 20 is around the halfway point under the top rank. They have a pretty decent shot within the playoffs and with dedicated RP, could effectively make it to the final (if schizophrenic baseball Maggie is on their side, at least). And even the low ranks are rather close to the others in their range. This is overall quite ideal.

Finally, let's look at ours truly, the IBC ranks! You've got Saint Kanye in first with about 47 points. Then Abanhfleft, 10 points under. Already about 3/4 the rank of STK. Then Ethane, a bit lower. Then Vangaziland and Abaja at 18 and 17. We've gotten to the end of the top 5 and we're already under half the max rank. Then Ceni and Valanora about 1/4 the top rank. They're mathematical Quarterfinalists. And they're 25% of the maximum on rank. And then there's a steady decline into nothingness, which is vastly large and once you're outside of the Top 20, the best nations are 5% of STK's rank. This is absolutely, completely, mind-bogglingly absurd. The polarization is insane. Yeah, sure, the guys at the top 3 put in work (although even Ethane admitted he hasn't put up the work to justify his rank). And in return, nobody will ever, ever be able to match them in rank unless all of them just don't enter consecutive editions. Saint Kanye could not even post a roster for a season and he'd have a reasonable shot at sweeping the group stage, the playoffs, and the championship. And like Free Republics pointed out, "increasing the RP bonus" does not help. It makes things worse. From a scorinator standpoint, increasing the given bonus compared to the ranks only creates massive disparity and ridiculous randomness, which is never ideal. Oh yeah, and remember, every time a dedicated low-ranker increases their bonus in this situation, so too do the top players, making them further out of reach and, depending on the bonus given for RP quality, perhaps even exponentially so.

I hope this has helped illustrate my point as much as I was expecting. The situation we have here with the IBC ranks is simply put, not ideal. At least for those not at the top. Again I stress this is not an attack against Kanye or Fleft or anybody else up there, nor am I accusing them of anything. I'm just saying that the system is unfair, badly polarized, and completely disconnected from any other of the various ranking systems which, as far as I know, have not been complained about at all in my 1.5-year tenure here (except for the World Cup ranks, but you could probably write "Times people will complain about the World Cup ranks" into an Almanac with certainty).

This is why I say the ranks need a change. I've liked what Electrum and FFR have said, and now that I think of it, eliminating the "Previous Rank" column would definitely help remove some polarization right off the bat. And I'm definitely for a system that doesn't have enormous bonuses for each round advanced, if at all. What I would definitely like to do is give more than a minuscule bonus for the group stage. Right now the max you get for the group stage is around a single point, I believe, and if you get that much you've definitely gotten to the playoffs. That really sucks for any with hard luck in the group stage (i.e. having a Top 3-5 nation drawn in your group basically guaranteeing 2 losses), draw or result wise, and is unlike any other ranking system. I mean, if you want to talk about fairness for effort, look right at Saint Kanye. He got 0.7 ranking points in IBC 21. Not even an entire point. He put in the effort, got unlucky, and then the ranks screwed him. So really, you should at least support a system that would prioritize the group stage record a little more.

There's obviously still a lot to go to decide on this, but again, I hope this closes the case that the ranks need to be changed, because they're unfair.

by **Saint Kanye** » Fri May 12, 2017 7:39 pm

Have you considered that hoops is not that popular in NS Sports, so not many RP?

by **Drawkland** » Fri May 12, 2017 7:46 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:Have you considered that hoops is not that popular in NS Sports, so not many RP?

Right, NS Sports is centered around soccer because this is an international site and soccer has an international audience. However that's .... not exactly what I'm talking about, unless you have some other point you're trying talking get at.

by **Free Republics** » Fri May 12, 2017 7:48 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:Have you considered that hoops is not that popular in NS Sports, so not many RP?

That doesn't really make a difference though when it comes to the ranks. There have to be 4 semi-finalists in every tournament whether nobody RPed or 202 nations RPed (the reason why I use that 202 number is because its the current record for most nations entered into a single tournament).

by **The Royal Kingdom of Quebec** » Fri May 12, 2017 7:56 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:Have you considered that hoops is not that popular in NS Sports, so not many RP?

One of the things that makes a competition's popularity decline occurs when a nation or two dominates after a period of time and it seems next to impossible to challenge them.

Remember that World Cup of Hockey experienced revival in popularity around 22-23, and was able to get more RP(er)s than WBC or IBC because of the greater parity and not one nation taking it all and whatnot. For example, WCoH 26 had semifinalists whose ranks were of following :

Gyatso-Kai - 3rd
Royal Kingdom of Quebec - 8th, also host
Valanora - 12th
Vilita and Turori - 10th

There were good number of upsets where the likes of recent 4-time champion (Havl) and 2nd seed with a title (Gregoryisgodistan) were upset, because not only did all 4 semifinalists RP'd frequently and at high quality, the ranks for top 12 nations were not drastically apart from each other. This kinda shows the benefits of not having the ranks go in such a steep curve I feel....

by **Saint Kanye** » Fri May 12, 2017 7:58 pm

Drawkland wrote:
Saint Kanye wrote:Have you considered that hoops is not that popular in NS Sports, so not many RP?

Right, NS Sports is centered around soccer because this is an international site and soccer has an international audience. However that's .... not exactly what I'm talking about, unless you have some other point you're trying talking get at.

Only a few RP, so only a few get their ranks boosted. In fact it's rare for the IBC to have unranked squads return the next season, mainly because they tend to crash out early.

So I agree that making the group stages more rewarding would be a great incentive for new teams to come back next season.

The Royal Kingdom of Quebec wrote:
Saint Kanye wrote:Have you considered that hoops is not that popular in NS Sports, so not many RP?

One of the things that makes a competition's popularity decline occurs when a nation or two dominates after a period of time and it seems next to impossible to challenge them.

That's not my mindset. If I was there when Saintland was alpha dog I would've just been more motivated to RP more and try to topple them.

by **Electrum** » Fri May 12, 2017 8:02 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:That's not my mindset. If I was there when Saintland was alpha dog I would've just been more motivated to RP more and try to topple them.

...which is what I nearly did, and I would have been able to if the ranks were more equitable.

by **The Royal Kingdom of Quebec** » Fri May 12, 2017 8:03 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:
The Royal Kingdom of Quebec wrote:One of the things that makes a competition's popularity decline occurs when a nation or two dominates after a period of time and it seems next to impossible to challenge them.

That's not my mindset. If I was there when Saintland was alpha dog I would've just been more motivated to RP more and try to topple them.

We're not talking about your mindset, but what would work better for the greater public, in order to possibly increase accessibility of IBC to the people.

Remember that not everybody has time to RP twice a day nor that frequently, and some nations will be more open to RP if the competition towards the top isn't as steep due to the ranks.

by **Drawkland** » Fri May 12, 2017 8:09 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:
Drawkland wrote:Right, NS Sports is centered around soccer because this is an international site and soccer has an international audience. However that's .... not exactly what I'm talking about, unless you have some other point you're trying talking get at.

Only a few RP, so only a few get their ranks boosted. In fact it's rare for the IBC to have unranked squads return the next season, mainly because they tend to crash out early.

So I agree that making the group stages more rewarding would be a great incentive for new teams to come back next season.

The Royal Kingdom of Quebec wrote:One of the things that makes a competition's popularity decline occurs when a nation or two dominates after a period of time and it seems next to impossible to challenge them.

That's not my mindset. If I was there when Saintland was alpha dog I would've just been more motivated to RP more and try to topple them.

I'm not sure if you know this or not, based on how you're wording your sentences, but ranks are completely independent from RP bonus. The ranks only take into account the final results - wins from each round.

And yeah, the group stage being worth pennies on the dollar is no way to run a rank system. Group stage is generally the bread and butter and playoffs are the bonus flavorings.

And yeah, you'd be more motivated to RP, but this is basically your only option. For most other nations, there's multiple competitions to think about. Take IBC 23, for example. There were the regional soccer tournaments, the WBC, the start of the NSCAA, and finally the IBC, all at once. When a player sees this and is like "wow, I have time to RP, what should I RP for?" and then they see in the IBC their next opponent is you or Fleft of somebody they'd think "oh damn, I'm gonna lose this one anyway. I'll go RP another Tourney where I still have a chance to go further." They're not lazy, or not dedicated to RPing, they just don't want to waste their time, which is completely common. This, in essence, only harms the IBC as far as activity levels go.

by **Saint Kanye** » Fri May 12, 2017 8:20 pm

The Royal Kingdom of Quebec wrote:Remember that not everybody has time to RP twice a day nor that frequently.

Exactly. More effort, better results. This is why then-unranked Empire of Cats, who RPs everyday, beat #4 Vangaziland, who barely RPed, in the IBC 23 Round of 16.

Drawkland wrote:
Saint Kanye wrote:
Only a few RP, so only a few get their ranks boosted. In fact it's rare for the IBC to have unranked squads return the next season, mainly because they tend to crash out early.

So I agree that making the group stages more rewarding would be a great incentive for new teams to come back next season.

That's not my mindset. If I was there when Saintland was alpha dog I would've just been more motivated to RP more and try to topple them.

I'm not sure if you know this or not, based on how you're wording your sentences, but ranks are completely independent from RP bonus. The ranks only take into account the final results - wins from each round.

And yeah, the group stage being worth pennies on the dollar is no way to run a rank system. Group stage is generally the bread and butter and playoffs are the bonus flavorings.

And yeah, you'd be more motivated to RP, but this is basically your only option. For most other nations, there's multiple competitions to think about. Take IBC 23, for example. There were the regional soccer tournaments, the WBC, the start of the NSCAA, and finally the IBC, all at once. When a player sees this and is like "wow, I have time to RP, what should I RP for?" and then they see in the IBC their next opponent is you or Fleft of somebody they'd think "oh damn, I'm gonna lose this one anyway. I'll go RP another Tourney where I still have a chance to go further." They're not lazy, or not dedicated to RPing, they just don't want to waste their time, which is completely common. This, in essence, only harms the IBC as far as activity levels go.

Yes, but by RPing more, you win more, and by winning more, you rank up more. So they're at least co-related.

I understand that not everyone is like me (back in IBC 19) or Qasden (IBC 21) or EOC, unafraid of the strong teams. But not wanting to waste time is not an IBC exclusive problem.

by **Drawkland** » Fri May 12, 2017 8:28 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:
Drawkland wrote:I'm not sure if you know this or not, based on how you're wording your sentences, but ranks are completely independent from RP bonus. The ranks only take into account the final results - wins from each round.

And yeah, the group stage being worth pennies on the dollar is no way to run a rank system. Group stage is generally the bread and butter and playoffs are the bonus flavorings.

And yeah, you'd be more motivated to RP, but this is basically your only option. For most other nations, there's multiple competitions to think about. Take IBC 23, for example. There were the regional soccer tournaments, the WBC, the start of the NSCAA, and finally the IBC, all at once. When a player sees this and is like "wow, I have time to RP, what should I RP for?" and then they see in the IBC their next opponent is you or Fleft of somebody they'd think "oh damn, I'm gonna lose this one anyway. I'll go RP another Tourney where I still have a chance to go further." They're not lazy, or not dedicated to RPing, they just don't want to waste their time, which is completely common. This, in essence, only harms the IBC as far as activity levels go.

Yes, but by RPing more, you win more, and by winning more, you rank up more. So they're at least co-related.

I understand that not everyone is like me (back in IBC 19) or Qasden (IBC 21) or EOC, unafraid of the strong teams. But not wanting to waste time is not an IBC exclusive problem.

The issue is that the ranks, as they currently stand, are not very conducive towards rewarding those who do RP. In essence it's a glass ceiling. Theoretically you could rank up by RPing a lot, but that's based on how lucky they are on the playoff draw. In other words, how long it is until they face you or Fleft or even Ethane. If you RP a bunch and then face the Surge war machine in the Quarterfinals, you're completely and utterly screwed, and your rank hardly gets a boost because of it. The only good shot one could get is RP'ing a lot and hoping they don't have to face Kanye or Fleft until the final. Then, they'll have the honor of being swept in the final series and gaining minimal ranking points from it. Waste of time.

by **Saint Kanye** » Fri May 12, 2017 8:56 pm

I'm sorry, Drawk, but I don't like it when you say that we could just post a roster and still be champs or that we could sweep any opposition in the finals easily. There is nothing easy with what I do, much more for what Fleft does with his novel-worthy stories. I still sit and write for an hour or two both because I am a believer in upsets (see IBC 22 Matchday 10, vs. Pittopi), and for the love of RPing, and I'm sure that's Fleft's reasoning too.

Once again, let me say that I support a ranking reform, but let's make it fair for all involved, and by all, that includes even us at the top. How this would be done is beyond me though.

by **Drawkland** » Fri May 12, 2017 9:12 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:I'm sorry, Drawk, but I don't like it when you say that we could just post a roster and still be champs or that we could sweep any opposition in the finals easily. There is nothing easy with what I do, much more for what Fleft does with his novel-worthy stories. I still sit and write for an hour or two both because I am a believer in upsets (see IBC 22 Matchday 10, vs. Pittopi), and for the love of RPing, and I'm sure that's Fleft's reasoning too.

Once again, let me say that I support a ranking reform, but let's make it fair for all involved, and by all, that includes even us at the top. How this would be done is beyond me though.

I completely understand where you're coming from there. But I'm not attempting a personal attack or anything. I'm simply explaining what the effect of the ranking disparity and why it's bad. Does it feel wrong that it should be possible? That's because the system is wrong.

And like I said, I'm not out to drop you top tier guys to group stage exiter levels, I'm just looking to bring everyone else up to be more fair. Look at the WBC ranks compared to the IBC. That's the sort of look I'm aiming for, what the WBC has (as far as spread and parity goes).

by **Spaam** » Fri May 12, 2017 9:16 pm

I'm playing around with Pythagorean Expectation and have come up with a ranking spreadsheet (for this past IBC only).

What do people think of something like this? It will probably start working better if someone could help enter data too...

by **Saint Kanye** » Fri May 12, 2017 9:32 pm

Is Vangaziland at the top a result of his enormous winning margins?

by **Spaam** » Fri May 12, 2017 10:00 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:Is Vangaziland at the top a result of his enormous winning margins?

Essentially - it pretty much days he was a little unlucky not to win. However, a) it will probably balance out once we have more data, and b) we could always modify it to give more of a bonus to the actual winners...

EDIT: Updated to IBC22

EDIT2: Updated to IBC21 - I think we can maybe use one more...

by **Spaam** » Sat May 13, 2017 12:35 am

EDIT: Sorry for the double post

IBC Discussion Thread (OOC, V2)

IBC Discussion Thread (OOC, V2)

IBO Constitution

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