Birth or not

[Nulono]

'Cause some of us don't like to be responsible for the death of another human being.

Why does it matter if the human being cannot feel pain? And when are we a human being, are we a human being when we are just a collection of cells? Or are we a human being when we can feel pain, or reason? what is your criteria for a human being?

So does someone with congenital insensitivity to pain, such as Gabby Gingras, not have a right to live? Is a newborn, who cannot reason and acts on instinct and reflex, not a human being?

My definition is the biological definition, any member of the genus Homo, specifically the subspecies H sapiens sapiens.
Like it or not, we're all just collections of cells. Pain and reason are the functions of some of said cells.

But why? Please explain why you think abortion is wrong except when the mother's life is at stake, or that she was raped.

If something is forced upon a person, such as a baby that could cause death during birth or if they were raped then they should have a choice in whether to try to have the baby. I feel it is wrong to force them to risk their lives for the baby or to carry a baby that they had no choice in.

Is it the child's fault she was raped? The rapist should have his balls cut off with a rusty nail, but the baby is innocent.

That's the question isn't it? is it better to let a child be born into, say, a genocidal ethnic grotto where he will suffer, be starved, attacked, and a multitude of other things that will almost invariably kill him before the age of 5 or abort him to save suffering? It's a question of whether a horrible life or death is better. And if you decide that abortion is better, then the question comes up of when a life becomes worth living. it's a slippery slope.

It's more a question of whether the mother feels that she is prepared to be a parent. If she isn't it is better for her to get an abortion rather than risking her life to have a child she doesn't want.

So anyone who is unwanted has no right to not be killed?

If a newborn is born into a family that then falls on hard times, is it okay to kill the newborn? What about a toddler?

No, because at that point the child is legally a person.

So whatever the law says goes? Was it okay to kill a Native American when they weren't considered persons? Would abortion be wrong if the unborn were legally persons?

[Umbagar]

If something is forced upon a person, such as a baby that could cause death during birth or if they were raped then they should have a choice in whether to try to have the baby. I feel it is wrong to force them to risk their lives for the baby or to carry a baby that they had no choice in.

A fetus is not advanced enough to understand what choice is.

It's the mother's responsibility to choose for the fetus/child if she has circumstances forced on her. If it was her own fault she got pregnant then she must give birth.

[Nulono]

If something is forced upon a person, such as a baby that could cause death during birth or if they were raped then they should have a choice in whether to try to have the baby. I feel it is wrong to force them to risk their lives for the baby or to carry a baby that they had no choice in.

A fetus is not advanced enough to understand what choice is.

1. I'm pretty sure he was saying abortion SHOULD be allowed.
2. Neither is an infant. What's your point?

[Nulono]

A fetus is not advanced enough to understand what choice is.

It's the mother's responsibility to choose for the fetus/child if she has circumstances forced on her. If it was her own fault she got pregnant then she must give birth.

Why does this end at birth, then? Should parents be allowed to kill their offspring until they can make their own choices?

[Dyakovo]

If something is forced upon a person, such as a baby that could cause death during birth or if they were raped then they should have a choice in whether to try to have the baby. I feel it is wrong to force them to risk their lives for the baby or to carry a baby that they had no choice in.

A fetus is not advanced enough to understand what choice is.

And?

[Umbagar]

If something is forced upon a person, such as a baby that could cause death during birth or if they were raped then they should have a choice in whether to try to have the baby. I feel it is wrong to force them to risk their lives for the baby or to carry a baby that they had no choice in.

Is it the child's fault she was raped? The rapist should have his balls cut off with a rusty nail, but the baby is innocent.

The mother was there first and has the right to have a say in what happens. If the baby is endangering the mother (and generally if the mother is in danger, so is the baby) then the mother should get a choice into what happens to her. Same for the rapist situation. You can't just let a woman be violated and then forced to care for baby that she despises.

[Nulono]

Is it the child's fault she was raped? The rapist should have his balls cut off with a rusty nail, but the baby is innocent.

The mother was there first and has the right to have a say in what happens. If the baby is endangering the mother (and generally if the mother is in danger, so is the baby) then the mother should get a choice into what happens to her. Same for the rapist situation. You can't just let a woman be violated and then forced to care for baby that she despises.

Despising someone doesn't mean it's okay if you kill them.

[Arilando]

A fetus is not advanced enough to understand what choice is.

It's the mother's responsibility to choose for the fetus/child if she has circumstances forced on her. If it was her own fault she got pregnant then she must give birth.

What she does not want to. Dont she have a right to choose, more so than the fetus because the fetus cannot understand what a choice is?

[Umbagar]

It's the mother's responsibility to choose for the fetus/child if she has circumstances forced on her. If it was her own fault she got pregnant then she must give birth.

Why does this end at birth, then? Should parents be allowed to kill their offspring until they can make their own choices?

This has absolutely nothing to do with my position. If a mother has given birth to child then it is no longer threatening her life, so it makes no sense to extend this argument after the child is born.

[Dyakovo]

It's more a question of whether the mother feels that she is prepared to be a parent. If she isn't it is better for her to get an abortion rather than risking her life to have a child she doesn't want.

So anyone who is unwanted has no right to not be killed?

The term "anyone" implies personhood, something a fetus lacks.

No, because at that point the child is legally a person.

So whatever the law says goes? Was it okay to kill a Native American when they weren't considered persons? Would abortion be wrong if the unborn were legally persons?

Yup, that totally what I'm saying.

[Arilando]

A fetcircumstances us is not advanced enough to understand what choice is.

1. I'm pretty sure he was saying abortion SHOULD be allowed.
2. Neither is an infant. What's your point?

1. he said it should only be allowed in special circumstances, i believe it should allways be allowed
2. The infant can be adopted, a fetus cannot

[Umbagar]

It's the mother's responsibility to choose for the fetus/child if she has circumstances forced on her. If it was her own fault she got pregnant then she must give birth.

What she does not want to. Dont she have a right to choose, more so than the fetus because the fetus cannot understand what a choice is?

I'm not sure what you are refering to. are you talking about if she gets knocked up and pregnant? In that case, she made the choice to have a baby when she decided to have sex.

[Dyakovo]

The mother was there first and has the right to have a say in what happens. If the baby is endangering the mother (and generally if the mother is in danger, so is the baby) then the mother should get a choice into what happens to her. Same for the rapist situation. You can't just let a woman be violated and then forced to care for baby that she despises.

Despising someone doesn't mean it's okay if you kill them.

Endangering someone's life isn't okay either, but you seem to support it if the one doing the endangering is a fetus...

[Nulono]

So anyone who is unwanted has no right to not be killed?

The term "anyone" implies personhood, something a fetus lacks.

Says who?

So whatever the law says goes? Was it okay to kill a Native American when they weren't considered persons? Would abortion be wrong if the unborn were legally persons?

Yup, that totally what I'm saying.

Your excuse was "No, because at that point the child is legally a person.". Is legal personhood relevant or not?

It's the mother's responsibility to choose for the fetus/child if she has circumstances forced on her. If it was her own fault she got pregnant then she must give birth.

What she does not want to. Dont she have a right to choose, more so than the fetus because the fetus cannot understand what a choice is?

She does not have a right to kill anyone, regardless of if they understand choice or not.

[Arilando]

What she does not want to. Dont she have a right to choose, more so than the fetus because the fetus cannot understand what a choice is?

She does not have a right to kill anyone, regardless of if they understand choice or not.

Even if it cannot feel pain?

[Umbagar]

The mother was there first and has the right to have a say in what happens. If the baby is endangering the mother (and generally if the mother is in danger, so is the baby) then the mother should get a choice into what happens to her. Same for the rapist situation. You can't just let a woman be violated and then forced to care for baby that she despises.

Despising someone doesn't mean it's okay if you kill them.

there are several reasons why forcing a woman to have a rapist's child is wrong:
1. it can cause emotional damage if you know that the genetics of the man who harmed you is inside you.
2. Even if the baby is born and the woman has to look after it she will probably abuse it if it is not wanted.

[Arilando]

What she does not want to. Dont she have a right to choose, more so than the fetus because the fetus cannot understand what a choice is?

I'm not sure what you are refering to. are you talking about if she gets knocked up and pregnant? In that case, she made the choice to have a baby when she decided to have sex.

Yes but afterwards she can choose to have an abortion, dont she have the right to do so? Also abortion saves live, there is a higher change of dying giving birth than dying having an abortion.

[Der Teutoniker]

So a couple in Minnesota

Let me stop you right there. For the record, most of us here are pretty normal.

[Nulono]

She does not have a right to kill anyone, regardless of if they understand choice or not.

Even if it cannot feel pain?

If I killed you painlessly, would that be okay? What if I killed someone with congenital insensitivity to pain?

1. I'm pretty sure he was saying abortion SHOULD be allowed.
2. Neither is an infant. What's your point?

1. he said it should only be allowed in special circumstances, i believe it should allways be allowed
2. The infant can be adopted, a fetus cannot

2. The infant can't be adopted until you find an adoptive family. The fetus can't be adopted until birth. What does being able to be adopted have to do with the right to not be killed?

Despising someone doesn't mean it's okay if you kill them.

Endangering someone's life isn't okay either, but you seem to support it if the one doing the endangering is a fetus...

Right, 'cause it's totally the fetus's fault. Fetuses just walk around in the astral plane, rubbing their hands maniacally and looking for a woman to kill.

Despising someone doesn't mean it's okay if you kill them.

there are several reasons why forcing a woman to have a rapist's child is wrong:
1. it can cause emotional damage if you know that the genetics of the man who harmed you is inside you.
2. Even if the baby is born and the woman has to look after it she will probably abuse it if it is not wanted.

1. It's not okay to kill someone just because you don't like their genes.
2. Then put the baby for adoption. It's not okay to kill someone because you don't think you'd be a good parent.

I'm not sure what you are refering to. are you talking about if she gets knocked up and pregnant? In that case, she made the choice to have a baby when she decided to have sex.

Yes but afterwards she can choose to have an abortion, dont she have the right to do so? Also abortion saves live, there is a higher change of dying giving birth than dying having an abortion.

Abortion has a 100% chance of death.

[Umbagar]

I'm not sure what you are refering to. are you talking about if she gets knocked up and pregnant? In that case, she made the choice to have a baby when she decided to have sex.

Yes but afterwards she can choose to have an abortion, dont she have the right to do so? Also abortion saves live, there is a higher change of dying giving birth than dying having an abortion.

At some point a fetus is still a child. I believe that you get 1 choice in whether or not to have a baby, which is when you decide to have sex. Killing off things that will be children on a whim is immoral in my opinion.

[Dyakovo]

The term "anyone" implies personhood, something a fetus lacks.

Says who?

being a person

A person is most broadly defined as any individual self-conscious or rational being, or any entity having rights and duties; or often more narrowly defined as an individual human being in particular.

Yup, that totally what I'm saying.

Your excuse was "No, because at that point the child is legally a person.". Is legal personhood relevant or not?

Yes, legal personhood is relevant. Acknowledging legal personhood as relevant is not, however, the same thing as saying that it is the only thing that is relevant. So you can quit building straw men.

[Fartsniffage]

Abortion has a 100% chance of death.

Lies.

http://joseromia.tripod.com/survivors.html

[Nulono]

Yes but afterwards she can choose to have an abortion, dont she have the right to do so? Also abortion saves live, there is a higher change of dying giving birth than dying having an abortion.

At some point a fetus is still a child. I believe that you get 1 choice in whether or not to have a baby, which is when you decide to have sex. Killing off things that will be children on a whim is immoral in my opinion.

Killing off anyone is bad IMO.

[Dyakovo]

Endangering someone's life isn't okay either, but you seem to support it if the one doing the endangering is a fetus...

Right, 'cause it's totally the fetus's fault. Fetuses just walk around in the astral plane, rubbing their hands maniacally and looking for a woman to kill.

Building straw men is your favorite pastime isn't it?

[Dyakovo]

Yes but afterwards she can choose to have an abortion, dont she have the right to do so? Also abortion saves live, there is a higher change of dying giving birth than dying having an abortion.

Abortion has a 100% chance of death.

Really? everyone who has had an abortion has died? The statistics on people who have had multiple abortions must be made up then...