[Abortion Thread] (POLL 4) A compromising position...

[The Caleshan Valkyrie]

Again it's exceedingly rare. Exceedingly rare. I can be forgiven for saying what I said, as it is accurate, as tiny sub-percentage stats are not enough to disrupt an overwhelming trend.

I still think after a certain cutoff point it should be restricted.

That would not be feasible, SPECIFICALLY because of the fact that the cast majorityof such abortions are due to medical complications.

Really we should subsidise and encourage the use of contraception, which would drive down the abortion rate.

Aye, on this point we agree. But there will still be a need for abortion services even then. Even so, this option (among others) are largely advocated by the pro-choice folks, and often shot down by pro-life types.

[Molither]

Really we should subsidise and encourage the use of contraception, which would drive down the abortion rate.

This.

I want to drive down the rate of abortion, but we can't just ban it and expect it to go away however much I wish it would. We have to get to the root of the causes, it's similar to crime and a lot of it is due to poverty.

[Agarntrop]

Really we should subsidise and encourage the use of contraception, which would drive down the abortion rate.

This.

I want to drive down the rate of abortion, but we can't just ban it and expect it to go away however much I wish it would. We have to get to the root of the causes, it's similar to crime and a lot of it is due to poverty.

Exactly

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

What do you want to do about that? Same pay as a man, but for fewer days/hours? And compensation or Affirmative Action for their career proceeding more slowly on fewer days/hours?

Maybe a kind of Marriage With Children contract, where the father is required to take equal time from work hours for parenting duty?

I'd advocate for a basic income for parents to help free them from economic constraints and be more flexible. Ideally both parents should share their duties equally but they could come to other arrangements.

OK, so they're both getting by and providing for a child as well, on the basic income. But they'd both like better options (eg move to a better suburb where the public school is better) so he goes out and gets a job and she does the full-time parenting.

Five years later, how has her career advanced?

Currently Women perform on average more unpaid work than Men. This contributes to society but is seen as invisible so I think it's only fair they're compensated too. I'm no expert in Public Policy though.

Well I like that idea. There are issues with unpaid work: it's only work in the sense that the person experiences it as work (ie maybe not too hard, but also not something that would be done just for fun) and to provide pay for it requires an arbitrary assessment of what the outcomes are worth. What would an employer pay for it, basically, and I say "arbitrary" because without an actual employer harshly judging the worth of the work, demanding improvements or offering bonuses, you might as well just have a government payment per person for assumed hours (otherwise unpaid) worked per week.

I actually do approve of trying to measure and pay for, unpaid work. I just don't know how. With what we're talking about, parents, I think a lot of the unpaid work would be covered by a simple Parenting Allowance. Which is a thing which exists in many countries already. As far as I know, the US only has a tax deduction for dependent children (better than nothing), but maybe some States do it.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

Really we should subsidise and encourage the use of contraception, which would drive down the abortion rate.

Encouragement includes education, and the only way to get education to all, is in school.

And suddenly, not everyone agrees any more ...

[Attempted Socialism]

Really we should subsidise and encourage the use of contraception, which would drive down the abortion rate.

Encouragement includes education, and the only way to get education to all, is in school.

And suddenly, not everyone agrees any more ...

It's easy to find anti-choice advocates who are against contraception as well, either explicitly or (Like Glenn Beck) implicitly by shaming users or making contraceptives expensive.

[Page]

It actually is settled, the fetus cannot experience pain until the third trimester, which is well after the time when abortions are carried out.

Late term abortion is legal in several states.

Almost everyone who seeks a late term abortion wants to give birth to a living baby. People don't change their minds after such long periods of time, late term abortion happen under dire medical circumstances.

[Cultural Posadism]

Like when Michelle Williams gave the speech at the OSCARs sayng she wouldn't be here where she is today if she didn't have an abortion.

It makes me think:

That's nothing to be proud about. It's shameful that we as a society discriminate against women and make them choose between a career and being a mother.
Michelle Williams shouldn't have had to choose between her baby and her career. In an ideal world she could have both.
It just seems like Liberal identity politics at its worst - the state in my opinion should provide enough so she could've had enough to pursue her career and raise a child.
What kind of message does this send young Girls? You can't have a baby while young and be successful?
The rate of abortion would be much lower if the rate of poverty was much lower. Most abortions are due to material circumstances.
But nevertheless I digress.

I see abortion as a sad thing but I won't try to stop people from having them.

You have a point, but at the same time I do think it's good to challenge some of the lingering social and cultural stigma towards women who choose to have an abortion, and the presumption that they're supposed to live in silent shame and grief after it.

[Cultural Posadism]

Really we should subsidise and encourage the use of contraception, which would drive down the abortion rate.

Encouragement includes education, and the only way to get education to all, is in school.

And suddenly, not everyone agrees any more ...

As I've mentioned in other threads in the past, this is exactly the problem: the political institutions and organizations which tend to rally around anti-abortion policy also tend to be the ones which oppose access to contraception and comprehensive sex ed, because those organizations, for the most part, usually originate from a wider ideology which is dogmatically opposed to any acknowledgement or facilitation of human sexuality outside of the confines of religious and cultural traditionalism. The organizations and institutions which campaign the hardest against abortion are the same which also morally oppose birth control and deny the effectiveness of condoms. They are the same organizations and institutions which will oppose comprehensive sex ed because they feel it "sexualizes" children, encourages them to do "immoral" things and "confuses" them about gender and sexuality.

[Agarntrop]

Late term abortion is legal in several states.

Almost everyone who seeks a late term abortion wants to give birth to a living baby. People don't change their minds after such long periods of time, late term abortion happen under dire medical circumstances.

Do you have a source for this claim or are you just trying to make yourselves feel better

[Agarntrop]

Really we should subsidise and encourage the use of contraception, which would drive down the abortion rate.

Encouragement includes education, and the only way to get education to all, is in school.

And suddenly, not everyone agrees any more ...

I definitely do. I am 100% pro sex education.

[The Alma Mater]

Late term abortion is legal in several states.

Almost everyone who seeks a late term abortion wants to give birth to a living baby. People don't change their minds after such long periods of time, late term abortion happen under dire medical circumstances.

Actually, 15 years ago the main reason was money. Poor people had to gather the money for the abortion first.

[Neutraligon]

Almost everyone who seeks a late term abortion wants to give birth to a living baby. People don't change their minds after such long periods of time, late term abortion happen under dire medical circumstances.

Do you have a source for this claim or are you just trying to make yourselves feel better

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/ss6907a1.htm
if you look at gestational age, most (77%) abortions occur below 9 weeks. Since women are often not aware they are pregnant until they are 4 weeks pregnant that means that most abortions occur in those 5 weeks from 1 month to 9 weeks. 1% of abortions occur at >21 weeks. while there has been no real change in the percentage of women who get an abortion at <13 weeks over the years more and more women are getting it earlier within the 13 weeks. You know who has later abortions within the 13 week time period...teens, especially teen less then 15. The other group who have later abortions where women who had issues getting earlier abortions due to money and logistical issues. Most women who had later abortions fell into at least 1 of five categories.

They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24188634/

[Punished UMN]

Plus, unlike most forms of contraception you already exist before being aborted. Fetuses feel pain as early as 12 weeks’ gestation. In my opinion that is the point where afterwards having an abortion is unethical, as you are subjecting a human life however small it may be to pain. I disagree with the view that a Fetus is a burden and therefore people should have the right to abort it. It's a slippery slope and similar arguments were used by the Nazis to justify their euthanasia program against the disabled.

I don't know where you heard that nonsense (highlighted by myself). But it is false.

A foetus is insentient until the third trimester (after the legal limit for legal, non-emergency abortions). It feels no pain:

"The science shows that based on gestational age, the fetus is not capable of feeling pain until the third trimester," said Kate Connors, a spokesperson for ACOG. The third trimester begins at about 27 weeks of pregnancy.
[...]
Second, the neurons in the spinal cord that transmit that signal up to the brain must be developed. Researchers who looked at fetal tissues reported that this happens at around 19 weeks, the review said.

Third, the neurons that extend from the spinal cord into the brain need to reach all the way to the area of the brain where pain is perceived. This does not occur until between 23 and 24 weeks, according to the review.

Moreover, the nerves' existence isn't enough to produce the experience of pain, the authors wrote in their review. Rather, "These anatomical structures must also be functional," the authors wrote. It's not until around 30 weeks that there is evidence of brain activity that suggests the fetus is "awake."

And the slippery slope fallacy is just that... a fallacy.

EDIT: Oh, your sources provided to others include the pro-life propaganda righttolife. That explains a lot.

Without stepping into the overall argument, whether slippery slope arguments are fallacious is highly dependent upon a multitude of factors, and sociologists have in fact observed a slippery-slope mechanism in social and legal norms.

Source: Eugene Volokh. February 2003. "The mechanisms of the slippery slope." Harvard Law Review. 116 (4): 1026–1137.

[Agarntrop]

Do you have a source for this claim or are you just trying to make yourselves feel better

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/ss6907a1.htm
if you look at gestational age, most (77%) abortions occur below 9 weeks. Since women are often not aware they are pregnant until they are 4 weeks pregnant that means that most abortions occur in those 5 weeks from 1 month to 9 weeks. 1% of abortions occur at >21 weeks. while there has been no real change in the percentage of women who get an abortion at <13 weeks over the years more and more women are getting it earlier within the 13 weeks. You know who has later abortions within the 13 week time period...teens, especially teen less then 15. The other group who have later abortions where women who had issues getting earlier abortions due to money and logistical issues. Most women who had later abortions fell into at least 1 of five categories.

They were raising children alone, were depressed or using illicit substances, were in conflict with a male partner or experiencing domestic violence, had trouble deciding and then had access problems, or were young and nulliparous.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24188634/

I know the vast majorify of abortions are early term.

I was asking source for the claim that the vast majority of late term abortions are done in extreme circumstances in states where they are legal on demand.

[Neutraligon]

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/ss/ss6907a1.htm
if you look at gestational age, most (77%) abortions occur below 9 weeks. Since women are often not aware they are pregnant until they are 4 weeks pregnant that means that most abortions occur in those 5 weeks from 1 month to 9 weeks. 1% of abortions occur at >21 weeks. while there has been no real change in the percentage of women who get an abortion at <13 weeks over the years more and more women are getting it earlier within the 13 weeks. You know who has later abortions within the 13 week time period...teens, especially teen less then 15. The other group who have later abortions where women who had issues getting earlier abortions due to money and logistical issues. Most women who had later abortions fell into at least 1 of five categories. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/24188634/

I know the vast majorify of abortions are early term.

I was asking source for the claim that the vast majority of late term abortions are done in extreme circumstances in states where they are legal on demand.

I answered that, most late term abortions where not in fact due to medical necessity according to the study but rather due to a mix of logistical factors including raising money for the abortion, getting transportation to and from the clinic, finding people to help deal with childcare since about half of all women who have an abortion already have children, dealing with partners objections/domestic abuse, mental illness or addiction, access issues due to some states having 1 provider, or where teens. Teens in particular are an issue, with those less than 15 have 20% of abortions after 13 weeks.

[Agarntrop]

I know the vast majorify of abortions are early term.

I was asking source for the claim that the vast majority of late term abortions are done in extreme circumstances in states where they are legal on demand.

I answered that, most late term abortions where not in fact due to medical necessity according to the study but rather due to a mix of logistical factors including raising money for the abortion, getting transportation to and from the clinic, finding people to help deal with childcare since about half of all women who have an abortion already have children, dealing with partners objections/domestic abuse, mental illness or addiction, access issues due to some states having 1 provider, or where teens. Teens in particular are an issue, with those less than 15 have 20% of abortions after 13 weeks.

Partners' objections are definitely extreme circumstances

[The New California Republic]

I answered that, most late term abortions where not in fact due to medical necessity according to the study but rather due to a mix of logistical factors including raising money for the abortion, getting transportation to and from the clinic, finding people to help deal with childcare since about half of all women who have an abortion already have children, dealing with partners objections/domestic abuse, mental illness or addiction, access issues due to some states having 1 provider, or where teens. Teens in particular are an issue, with those less than 15 have 20% of abortions after 13 weeks.

Partners' objections are definitely extreme circumstances

Depends how abusive the partner is I suppose.

[Neutraligon]

I answered that, most late term abortions where not in fact due to medical necessity according to the study but rather due to a mix of logistical factors including raising money for the abortion, getting transportation to and from the clinic, finding people to help deal with childcare since about half of all women who have an abortion already have children, dealing with partners objections/domestic abuse, mental illness or addiction, access issues due to some states having 1 provider, or where teens. Teens in particular are an issue, with those less than 15 have 20% of abortions after 13 weeks.

Partners' objections are definitely extreme circumstances

Depends on how abusive/ controlling the partner is or how long it takes the woman to get him to agree (or in some cases how long it takes for him to get her to agree) without losing the relationship. Abortion is one of those things where if the couple disagrees it can easily lead to separation/divorce.

[Katganistan]

Yes.

And during the removal of people from your property, they do not need to be destroyed, unlike abortion.

So by this logic child abandonment should be legal?

Honestly there are way better arguments to justify abortion than this.

It is. You can leave infants at hospitals, fire houses, and some churches without penalty. You can give children up for adoption. What you can't do is throw them in the garbage, put them in suitcase and drop them in a river, etc.

[The Alma Mater]

And Arizona lawmakers have introduced a bill that would count abortion as a homicide, meaning both doctors and women could get the death penalty.

https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/55leg/1R/ ... B2650P.pdf

So pro-life.

[Neutraligon]

And Arizona lawmakers have introduced a bill that would count abortion as a homicide, meaning both doctors and women could get the death penalty.

https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/55leg/1R/ ... B2650P.pdf

So pro-life.

...From a quick look, miscarriage would count as homicide as would abortion due to life of the mother. Also this
THE COUNTY ATTORNEY SHALL ENFORCE TITLE 13, CHAPTER 11 IN RELATION TO HOMICIDE BY ABORTION REGARDLESS OF ANY CONTRARY OR CONFLICTING FEDERAL LAWS, REGULATIONS, TREATIES, COURT DECISIONS OR EXECUTIVE ORDERS

Would be illegal.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

I answered that, most late term abortions where not in fact due to medical necessity according to the study but rather due to a mix of logistical factors including raising money for the abortion, getting transportation to and from the clinic, finding people to help deal with childcare since about half of all women who have an abortion already have children, dealing with partners objections/domestic abuse, mental illness or addiction, access issues due to some states having 1 provider, or where teens. Teens in particular are an issue, with those less than 15 have 20% of abortions after 13 weeks.

Partners' objections are definitely extreme circumstances

If the woman gives her partner so much time to argue his case that she passes some arbitrary limit of "late term abortion" then you should be in favor of that. The woman is under no obligation to do so. Or in fact to even TELL her partner.

I believe it's rather common actually, that even in long term relationships or marriages, the woman makes the decision for herself. She shouldn't have to, but it's definitely preferable to being pressured by her partner.

[A-Series-Of-Tubes]

I think abortion for serious disability should remain an option up until birth. And since disability can begin late in term (eg a stroke) or only be diagnosed late in term, that rules out any cutoff.

I don't think we should be granting exemptions for disability unless such disability would cause either the mother or baby to die during either pregnancy or infancy. We shouldn't be trying to eliminate disabled people from the human race that way.

I don't think we should be making lists of good, or bad, reasons to have an abortion.

I also won't judge anyone for going with a pregnancy, expecting an average child, and then aborting when they find out the child will be seriously disabled. As I see it, anyone saying "that's a bad reason" should found an adoption agency specifically for disabled children, and put their money into it year after year. If they can place the children within a few months, and those adoptees get good results at mid-childhood and at adulthood, then great. But if they bail out, it's too expensive or not possible at all, then I expect them to admit they were wrong.

Denying abortion in any case, is burdening a woman (and/or her partner) with a child, and if adoption options aren't as good as the average parent, it burdens the birth mother too. You ask her to bring a child into the world, knowing it will not be properly cared for, then you bear that moral burden yourself.

I don't think "my child will be disabled" is a good reason. Ideally, the woman would rise to the challenge and be a good parent to the child she chose/was-forced to have. But understand this: it is not my place to say. It's her choice, not mine or yours. Any reason, or no reason, it is not for us to say any reason is bad.

[Agarntrop]

And Arizona lawmakers have introduced a bill that would count abortion as a homicide, meaning both doctors and women could get the death penalty.

https://www.azleg.gov/legtext/55leg/1R/ ... B2650P.pdf

So pro-life.

This is not gonna pass and will die like the Texas bill