Taxes are a form of Theft

[Sociobiology]

actually they can, remember part of the big contract is defining what a contract can and cannot do. this contract is literally the one that defines what consent, contracts, and persons ARE.
Your parents are given legal guardianship of you from the moment of conception and they choose to make you part of the contract by making you a citizen, up until you reach a certain age or sue for self determination, at which point you can then choose to leave and get out of the contract (give up citizenship) or stay and remain a part of it. You can also leave at anytime after that point.

No, it does not and cannot. Without the consent from a party to form an agreement, there is no contract.

your parent were the first party. the country was the second, and the contract is citizenship.

[Sociobiology]

And how is this substantially different than the social contract?

Your parents put that machine in motion by getting you born here, and it keeps right on 'smashing' as you say until such time as the person cancels its operation. Your parents set it in operation - making you a citizen and putting you under the jurisdiction and authority of the government in question.

You choose to leave it that way by remaining in the country.

I don't see a difference.

In this situation no property is created, no intangible with default characteristics (such as an account) is created.

sure there is it is called "citizenship" which has both rights and responsibilities.
The contract even includes what the conditions are to acquire citizenship.

[Mavorpen]

Indeed. The whole problem is, is that "government services" has long ago exceeded its purpose.

Not really, no.

I for one miss the old days where I could be owned as property.

[Immoren]

Not really, no.

I for one miss the old days where I could be owned as property.

They didn't even compesate me when I was forced to let go of my þræll!

[Mavorpen]

I for one miss the old days where I could be owned as property.

They didn't even compesate me when I was forced to let go of my þræll!

That's because you're not supposed to do that in public, silly.

[Immoren]

They didn't even compesate me when I was forced to let go of my þræll!

That's because you're not supposed to do that in public, silly.

Bloody abolitionists.

[Ifreann]

Not really, no.

I for one miss the old days where I could be owned as property.

I hear you would have been much better off back then.

[Infected Mushroom]

To put it another way,

if it were contractual, the state would have NO capability whatsoever to make laws that affect the child UNTIL he reached 18. The option isn't even there. The state does not have the right to, PERIOD.

why? You CAN make contracts that effect children.

You increasingly show how little you know about contracts

but you can't make a contract that adversely affects the rights of third parties

For example, I can't make a contract with B that takes away some of C's rights (and C is not a party).

In the same way, parents cannot sign away a child's natural right to NOT be subject to the law-making jurisdictional power before their age of consent. The child was born with some of his rights taken away because of a supposed contractual agreement made by the parent with the state (if we for a second, assume that part is contractual but it is not either because that parent was at some point a child too and started with the default condition that some of his natural rights were already compromised)

hence, this contract does not exist

[Oneracon]

Taxes are the price that we pay as citizens to live in a civilized society. Given that we all constantly use services and infrastructure that are paid for through taxation there is no theft going on here, you are simply paying your fair share. Not to mention that government-provided services are usually cheaper to the individual because you are essentially "collective purchasing" it, rather than trying to make do individually.

[Chestaan]

It's funny how you treat contract law like it's some kind of divine wisdom when ultimately it's just a set of laws, exactly like tax law.

one involves the law of consent and voluntary agreements... the other involves laws legitimising and bureaucratising government theft

it is clear which stands on the higher moral ground

Why, do private property fundamentalists just assume that the right to property is absolute and expect everyone else to accept this? I could just as easily claim that the right of the state to do what it pleases was axiomatic and I would have given as much justification as you have for the absolute right to property. You just assume that property rights are absolute and offer no argument as to why that is the case.

I suppose it is clear which stands on the moral high ground, allowing states to tax in order to provide for the common good. Not only because it is based in reality and is a thousand times more practical than the ridiculous idea of absolute rights, but because it leads to a far better outcome than not taxing people. So people here can continue to live in there wonderful world where they are free to talk about issues in a philosophical manner with no connection whatsoever to reality. The rest of us living in the real world will continue to do the right thing and will continue to support the option that will lead to a better outcome.

[San Lumen]

Greetings NSG,

I have just realised that in my view, the fact that the government forces you give them money on a regular basis (in the form of income tax) from income you rightfully and assiduously earn... is nothing more or less than an act of state-sanctioned theft.

In my view it can be described in no other way. The fact that we consider taxation a normal thing and a legitimate thing is simply a form of Might Makes Right. If a person wrote letters to you to try to compel you to give them a part of your property every Nth period (and if you don't they will do bad things to you like imprison you), you would rightfully and instinctively call such a person a robber. Likewise, If a band of robbers wrote a letter to you and threatened the same, you would rightfully and instinctively call such an organization an organization of robbers.

I've just made the revolutionary connection that the government is in that business too. I mean think about it. If you don't pay your taxes for long enough, the tax collectors will send their enforcers to grab you and throw you into a cell (isn't this similar to how a mafia operates?). Except they trick you into thinking its alright by making it a part of the Law. They also trick you into thinking that you've somehow legitimised this Theft because every 4 or so years you get to cast a statistically insignificant ballot that's supposedly a form of consent.

I can't believe it...

What do you think NSG? Is taxation nothing more than a form of theft by the powerful? Are we ruled by a society of elite and powerful bandits; is this what Western liberal society comes down to?

If you feel so strongly then why don't you run for office? You've said on previous threads that you don't vote and see voting and elections as a waste of time and pointless. If you don';t vote you have no right to complain or express and opinion about politics.

[Chestaan]

Greetings NSG,

I have just realised that in my view, the fact that the government forces you give them money on a regular basis (in the form of income tax) from income you rightfully and assiduously earn... is nothing more or less than an act of state-sanctioned theft.

In my view it can be described in no other way. The fact that we consider taxation a normal thing and a legitimate thing is simply a form of Might Makes Right. If a person wrote letters to you to try to compel you to give them a part of your property every Nth period (and if you don't they will do bad things to you like imprison you), you would rightfully and instinctively call such a person a robber. Likewise, If a band of robbers wrote a letter to you and threatened the same, you would rightfully and instinctively call such an organization an organization of robbers.

I've just made the revolutionary connection that the government is in that business too. I mean think about it. If you don't pay your taxes for long enough, the tax collectors will send their enforcers to grab you and throw you into a cell (isn't this similar to how a mafia operates?). Except they trick you into thinking its alright by making it a part of the Law. They also trick you into thinking that you've somehow legitimised this Theft because every 4 or so years you get to cast a statistically insignificant ballot that's supposedly a form of consent.

I can't believe it...

What do you think NSG? Is taxation nothing more than a form of theft by the powerful? Are we ruled by a society of elite and powerful bandits; is this what Western liberal society comes down to?

If you feel so strongly then why don't you run for office? You've said on previous threads that you don't vote and see voting and elections as a waste of time and pointless. If you don';t vote you have no right to complain or express and opinion about politics.

Well what if you find all the choices to be equally horrible and can't in good conscience support any of them?

[San Lumen]

Then why don't you run yourself or do a write in ballot?

[Chestaan]

Then why don't you run yourself or do a write in ballot?

Because you don't have the money and/or aren't American.

[San Lumen]

Then why don't you run yourself or do a write in ballot?

Because you don't have the money and/or aren't American.

Who says you have to have lots of money to run for office and you have to be American? if your not american run for office in your own country.

[Chestaan]

Because you don't have the money and/or aren't American.

Who says you have to have lots of money to run for office and you have to be American? if your not american run for office in your own country.

Write in ballots are mostly an American thing and I believe in most countries you need to at the very least pay a fee to run for election, not to mention any campaigning you also have to do. Also, its possible that someone just does not want to run but at the same time doesn't agree with any candidates, maybe they personally don't feel like they want the attention that comes from being a politician.

[San Lumen]

Who says you have to have lots of money to run for office and you have to be American? if your not american run for office in your own country.

Write in ballots are mostly an American thing and I believe in most countries you need to at the very least pay a fee to run for election, not to mention any campaigning you also have to do. Also, its possible that someone just does not want to run but at the same time doesn't agree with any candidates, maybe they personally don't feel like they want the attention that comes from being a politician.

if you don't vote and aren't going to participate in the democratic process don't complain about whose there and what polices they pass. And if those who of you who hate taxes so much yet refuse to vote or run for office make a statement and stop paying them

[Chestaan]

Write in ballots are mostly an American thing and I believe in most countries you need to at the very least pay a fee to run for election, not to mention any campaigning you also have to do. Also, its possible that someone just does not want to run but at the same time doesn't agree with any candidates, maybe they personally don't feel like they want the attention that comes from being a politician.

if you don't vote and aren't going to participate in the democratic process don't complain about whose there and what polices they pass. And if those who of you who hate taxes so much yet refuse to vote or run for office make a statement and stop paying them

Again, one cannot just run for office, it costs money which many don't have. If you disagree with all candidates and haven't got the money to run then what else are you supposed to do?

[San Lumen]

if you don't vote and aren't going to participate in the democratic process don't complain about whose there and what polices they pass. And if those who of you who hate taxes so much yet refuse to vote or run for office make a statement and stop paying them

Again, one cannot just run for office, it costs money which many don't have. If you disagree with all candidates and haven't got the money to run then what else are you supposed to do?

People have been elected without raising a huge amount of money. If you disagree with all the candidates run for office yourself or start a movement and refuse to pay taxes to a system you hate so much.

[Hurdegaryp]

Again, one cannot just run for office, it costs money which many don't have. If you disagree with all candidates and haven't got the money to run then what else are you supposed to do?

People have been elected without raising a huge amount of money. If you disagree with all the candidates run for office yourself or start a movement and refuse to pay taxes to a system you hate so much.

For what could possibly go wrong? Hakuna Matata, everyone!

[Infected Mushroom]

Greetings NSG,

I have just realised that in my view, the fact that the government forces you give them money on a regular basis (in the form of income tax) from income you rightfully and assiduously earn... is nothing more or less than an act of state-sanctioned theft.

In my view it can be described in no other way. The fact that we consider taxation a normal thing and a legitimate thing is simply a form of Might Makes Right. If a person wrote letters to you to try to compel you to give them a part of your property every Nth period (and if you don't they will do bad things to you like imprison you), you would rightfully and instinctively call such a person a robber. Likewise, If a band of robbers wrote a letter to you and threatened the same, you would rightfully and instinctively call such an organization an organization of robbers.

I've just made the revolutionary connection that the government is in that business too. I mean think about it. If you don't pay your taxes for long enough, the tax collectors will send their enforcers to grab you and throw you into a cell (isn't this similar to how a mafia operates?). Except they trick you into thinking its alright by making it a part of the Law. They also trick you into thinking that you've somehow legitimised this Theft because every 4 or so years you get to cast a statistically insignificant ballot that's supposedly a form of consent.

I can't believe it...

What do you think NSG? Is taxation nothing more than a form of theft by the powerful? Are we ruled by a society of elite and powerful bandits; is this what Western liberal society comes down to?

If you feel so strongly then why don't you run for office? You've said on previous threads that you don't vote and see voting and elections as a waste of time and pointless. If you don';t vote you have no right to complain or express and opinion about politics.

I'm not sure how that follows logically

[BK117B2]

No, it does not and cannot. Without the consent from a party to form an agreement, there is no contract.

your parent were the first party. the country was the second, and the contract is citizenship.

Which is relevant when you're a child. Most people eventually grow up

[San Lumen]

If you feel so strongly then why don't you run for office? You've said on previous threads that you don't vote and see voting and elections as a waste of time and pointless. If you don';t vote you have no right to complain or express and opinion about politics.

I'm not sure how that follows logically

Its quite simple if you don't vote you and refuse to participate in the democratic process you don't get a say in whose in office and what polices they enact. What's so hard to get? Since you hate taxes so much but refuse to vote get the rest of your apathetic friends and refuse to pay taxes to the system you hate so much.

[Dyakovo]

your parent were the first party. the country was the second, and the contract is citizenship.

Which is relevant when you're a child. Most people eventually grow up

Yes, and then you, as an adult, have not renounced your citizenship.

[BK117B2]

Which is relevant when you're a child. Most people eventually grow up

Yes, and then you, as an adult, have not renounced your citizenship.

I wouldn't, as I voluntarily accept my taxes and the services I receive.

Even for those who do not, renouncing citizenship doesn't do much for them. The government still insists on control regardless of citizenship.