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Segregated Bathrooms: A Problem?

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:36 pm

Greater Soviet Ukraine wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
That depends, the funny thing is a lot of the public restrooms in China had no stalls. (for that matter most had those squat toilets). Took a while to learn how to use those without taking of the pants. Hell when I was in the more backwater areas of China (where restrooms are not common) people did their business on the side of the road.

It's not just the backwater. In Beijing, there's a ton of feces on the sidewalks. I swear some of them are human, not just dog.


It is possible, as I mentioned little kids tended to go almost wherever and babies certainly did.
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Dyakovo
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Postby Dyakovo » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:38 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Grave_n_idle wrote:
"Approximately 4/5 of assaults are committed by someone known to the victim. 47% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance."

https://rainn.org/statistics


"47% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance" sounds to me "53% rapists are unknown person, you're 12,6759% more likely to be raped by an unknown person than by a friend or acquaintance".
It's still enough to be afraid by unknown persons within a public bathroom...

Grave_n_idle wrote:Nope. The weakness or vulnerability of the target seems to be pretty much irrelevant. The relationship and the specific target seems to be the overarching factor in deciding victims.


Wrong, in 53% cases of rape there's no previous relationship between the rapist and the victim.
Reading comprehension fail.
Approximately 4/5 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
82% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
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Conscentia
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Postby Conscentia » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:43 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:Yeah ... no. I did say 'no creepy and no invasive' there, for damn good reasons.
To some of the other comments and suggestions: Of course people just not being assholes could go a long way too, but the day someone finds a cure for that is probably a good long ways off.

I'd be willing to pay a large proportion more taxes to that research.
So many problems could be solved by that vaccine.

Oxytocin could facilitate social bonding.
Trichloromethane could keep people unconscious thus temporarily resolving the problem.
Cyanide could provide a permanent cure, but people might object to the side-effects.

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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:43 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:Heh, I sort of like the idea of men's, women's and single room family restrooms, which is something you see in new public space construction, and folks who are not comfortable using a sexed restroom for any reason can use the family restroom. Some people don't like peeing in the sake room as others, and can be accommodated with trans folks as well.

I dunno about you guys, but public restrooms have always been a little squicky for me. Either its the idea of germs (no, not 'teh gays', just regular old dirt and germs because you fething see some of the folks who walk outta there, neh?) And then there's the sounds. I do not like hearing someone next to me (and I do not take stalls right next to others if I have a choice, thanks) grunting and groaning trying to push one out any more than I'd want them to hear me trying to quietly take care of business. It's just one of those things, neh? Call it society, call it what you will, but we here in the 'states have more or less grown up with some expectation of privacy. And that's where the trans and other issues come in for some - that whole privacy thing, and what they are, and are not comfortable with.

In the end, there are simply some things we have to put on our big kid's pants and deal with. Or hold it until you get home. I can understand the hangups some have while understanding the side of those just trying to use the goram facilities. I just don't think we have to create a crisis, nor three-ring circus out of it.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:49 pm

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Heh, I sort of like the idea of men's, women's and single room family restrooms, which is something you see in new public space construction, and folks who are not comfortable using a sexed restroom for any reason can use the family restroom. Some people don't like peeing in the sake room as others, and can be accommodated with trans folks as well.

I dunno about you guys, but public restrooms have always been a little squicky for me. Either its the idea of germs (no, not 'teh gays', just regular old dirt and germs because you fething see some of the folks who walk outta there, neh?) And then there's the sounds. I do not like hearing someone next to me (and I do not take stalls right next to others if I have a choice, thanks) grunting and groaning trying to push one out any more than I'd want them to hear me trying to quietly take care of business. It's just one of those things, neh? Call it society, call it what you will, but we here in the 'states have more or less grown up with some expectation of privacy. And that's where the trans and other issues come in for some - that whole privacy thing, and what they are, and are not comfortable with.

In the end, there are simply some things we have to put on our big kid's pants and deal with. Or hold it until you get home. I can understand the hangups some have while understanding the side of those just trying to use the goram facilities. I just don't think we have to create a crisis, nor three-ring circus out of it.

Creating a crises out of something that does not need to be a crises is what we do best. Look at donald trump for example. LOOK AT HIM!
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Camelza
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Postby Camelza » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:50 pm

This guy... :roll:
I don't care as long as each bathroom has private stalls with doors and locks.
And I really don't see anything offensive regarding urinals other than their smell.

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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Thu Sep 10, 2015 2:52 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:Creating a crises out of something that does not need to be a crises is what we do best. Look at donald trump for example. LOOK AT HIM!

But ... he is a walking crisis. >_> The man creates them every time he opens his goram mouth.

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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:01 pm

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Heh, I sort of like the idea of men's, women's and single room family restrooms, which is something you see in new public space construction, and folks who are not comfortable using a sexed restroom for any reason can use the family restroom. Some people don't like peeing in the sake room as others, and can be accommodated with trans folks as well.

I dunno about you guys, but public restrooms have always been a little squicky for me. Either its the idea of germs (no, not 'teh gays', just regular old dirt and germs because you fething see some of the folks who walk outta there, neh?) And then there's the sounds. I do not like hearing someone next to me (and I do not take stalls right next to others if I have a choice, thanks) grunting and groaning trying to push one out any more than I'd want them to hear me trying to quietly take care of business. It's just one of those things, neh? Call it society, call it what you will, but we here in the 'states have more or less grown up with some expectation of privacy. And that's where the trans and other issues come in for some - that whole privacy thing, and what they are, and are not comfortable with.

In the end, there are simply some things we have to put on our big kid's pants and deal with. Or hold it until you get home. I can understand the hangups some have while understanding the side of those just trying to use the goram facilities. I just don't think we have to create a crisis, nor three-ring circus out of it.


...restrooms have stalls. Even most urinals have semi-dividers built in. I fail to see how unisex restrooms somehow interfere with privacy. More so what about the right of trans individuals to use the restroom they feel most comfortable with using. What of their right to privacy?
Last edited by Neutraligon on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:01 pm

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Creating a crises out of something that does not need to be a crises is what we do best. Look at donald trump for example. LOOK AT HIM!

But ... he is a walking crisis. >_> The man creates them every time he opens his goram mouth.

Exactly. The sad part is, he is not my last choice in the race.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:03 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:I dunno about you guys, but public restrooms have always been a little squicky for me. Either its the idea of germs (no, not 'teh gays', just regular old dirt and germs because you fething see some of the folks who walk outta there, neh?) And then there's the sounds. I do not like hearing someone next to me (and I do not take stalls right next to others if I have a choice, thanks) grunting and groaning trying to push one out any more than I'd want them to hear me trying to quietly take care of business. It's just one of those things, neh? Call it society, call it what you will, but we here in the 'states have more or less grown up with some expectation of privacy. And that's where the trans and other issues come in for some - that whole privacy thing, and what they are, and are not comfortable with.

In the end, there are simply some things we have to put on our big kid's pants and deal with. Or hold it until you get home. I can understand the hangups some have while understanding the side of those just trying to use the goram facilities. I just don't think we have to create a crisis, nor three-ring circus out of it.


...restrooms have stalls. Even most urinals have semi-dividers built in. I fail to see how unisex restrooms somehow interfere with privacy.


Listening to someone with explosive diarrhea in the next stall kinda ruins the moment for me.
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Neutraligon
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Postby Neutraligon » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:04 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
Neutraligon wrote:
...restrooms have stalls. Even most urinals have semi-dividers built in. I fail to see how unisex restrooms somehow interfere with privacy.


Listening to someone with explosive diarrhea in the next stall kinda ruins the moment for me.


Since that is a problem with public restrooms in general...
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Achesia
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Postby Achesia » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:05 pm

Threads like this is why I need to stop coming to NSG....

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:07 pm

Neutraligon wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:
Listening to someone with explosive diarrhea in the next stall kinda ruins the moment for me.


Since that is a problem with public restrooms in general...

That was her point. Some folks are uncomfortable in public restrooms in general.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:08 pm

Achesia wrote:Threads like this is why I need to stop coming to NSG....

Shame you can't learn from your mistakes.
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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:14 pm

Neutraligon wrote:...restrooms have stalls. Even most urinals have semi-dividers built in. I fail to see how unisex restrooms somehow interfere with privacy. More so what about the right of trans individuals to use the restroom they feel most comfortable with using. What of their right to privacy?

You may have missed some earlier posts. I'm not against unisex bathrooms, nor am I against trans individuals being able to use the restroom that best suits them.

My suggestion was that we accommodate everyone's needs as best we can - with men, women, unisex, and perhaps even with an attendant in case of. Anything from safety to 'we ran out of TP'. Anywhere it is feasible to do so, I don't see why not. Was more referring to the uproar over compromise and attempting to make things ok for everyone, and being a bit silly with the 'please don't let me hear someone shitting next door' bit.

Goddammit, EM. >_< That. Yes, that. I think that'd ruin it for most folks.

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Chessmistress
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Postby Chessmistress » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:26 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:
"47% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance" sounds to me "53% rapists are unknown person, you're 12,6759% more likely to be raped by an unknown person than by a friend or acquaintance".
It's still enough to be afraid by unknown persons within a public bathroom...



Wrong, in 53% cases of rape there's no previous relationship between the rapist and the victim.
Reading comprehension fail.
Approximately 4/5 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
82% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.


Wrong.
Even if English is not my native language is your reading comprehension that fails.
It's 4/5 of sexual assaults BUT 47% of rapes
https://rainn.org/statistics
So, it's EXACTLY

"47% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance" sounds to me "53% rapists are unknown person, you're 12,6759% more likely to be raped by an unknown person than by a friend or acquaintance".
It's still enough to be afraid by unknown persons within a public bathroom...


You may better off without negating evidence.
Even if 80% sexual assaulters are non-strangers, women are MORE likely to be raped by unknown persons: 53%.

You seems don't care about the likeliness (53%) that women could be raped by unknown males within public bathrooms: you just only care about pushing for unisex bathrooms.
Why?
Last edited by Chessmistress on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Chessmistress
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Postby Chessmistress » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:35 pm

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Or 19th century warships.

I'd almost forgotten I'd have to answer some of this shit in wading into discussions more actively ... ye gods. *facepalm*

I don't know why you seem to have to turn everything into a fight, a poor women thing, or anti-man thing, or create problems that don't exist considering we're full up with those that do, Chessy, but really. "THEY WILL HAVE TO LIE TO USE THE BATHROOM" is a new one on me.


I will be very clear:
If in future there will be mainly unisex bathrooms and special women-only bathrooms for traumatised women, then I'll declare I've been traumatised in order to use women-only bathrooms instead of unisex bathrooms. In my case it would be true, but I know some women that would even lie about their supposed traumas in order to avoid unisex bathrooms, especially in some situations.
Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed law and know that, in Canada, gender and sex are the same thing

OOC:
Radical Feminist, caring about the oppressed gender, that's why I have a strong sense of justice.

PRO:
Radical Feminism (proudly SWERF - moderately TERF),
Gender abolitionism,
birth control and population control,
affirmative ongoing VERBAL consent,
death penalty for rapists.

AGAINST:
patriarchy,
pornography,
heteronormativity,
domestic violence and femicide.


Favorite Quotes: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ches ... /id=403173

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Kassaran
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Postby Kassaran » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:38 pm

Grave_n_idle wrote:
Ifreann wrote:As a man I find this generalisation insulting. If you don't care about cleaning up after yourself or if you find it amusing not to flush the toilet then please don't assume that this is true of all other men.


Indeed. I don't feel represented by the behaviours some people seem to be claiming are intrinsic in my gender.

Personally, I'm capable of using a bathroom in a civilised fashion.

As a man, you happen to be one of very few who actually care. The sad reality of the matter, is that if you happen to be capable of using the internet and are arguing for a movement as this, you are quite far advanced ahead of those who aren't. I'm also going to point out that is quite a lot of people, you aren't the majority, and that's why I used that generalization.

As for insinuating this is my behavior in a public restroom, that makes you the one now assuming. It also makes you wrong. If you're going to apply pathos to an argument, don't do it to try and discount the other debaters. It could be viewed as a provocation.

Grave, that's the issue. People will claim that, every time, but in reality they might not and likely won't. I have lived in both crowded cities and small out-of-the-way towns in various locations on the United States West Coast. Not only that, but I also have traveled along said coast and have had the displeasure of having to use various public restrooms. Regardless of location, I can say from experience (though perhaps I'm just an outlier), that the men's restrooms are almost always trashed and abused. Graffiti littering the walls of various stalls, clogged toilets, missing bathroom supplies, I've even come across fecal matter in the urinals a time or two.

Disgusting? Yeah, it is. The OP might not have realized perhaps that this is what you'll likely find happening (even if not out of a need for amusement, then out of defiance of more open social norms) regardless. In short, it's safer for society this way, at least until (and I hate to say this given my father and mother would be in said generation) older generations die off and millennials become the majority populace.
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Dread Lady Nathicana
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Postby Dread Lady Nathicana » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:39 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:I'd almost forgotten I'd have to answer some of this shit in wading into discussions more actively ... ye gods. *facepalm*

I don't know why you seem to have to turn everything into a fight, a poor women thing, or anti-man thing, or create problems that don't exist considering we're full up with those that do, Chessy, but really. "THEY WILL HAVE TO LIE TO USE THE BATHROOM" is a new one on me.


I will be very clear:
If in future there will be mainly unisex bathrooms and special women-only bathrooms for traumatised women, then I'll declare I've been traumatised in order to use women-only bathrooms instead of unisex bathrooms. In my case it would be true, but I know some women that would even lie about their supposed traumas in order to avoid unisex bathrooms, especially in some situations.

By all means then, lets be sure to name and shame, and suggest that anyone claiming it is a liar. That sounds like an outstanding solution.

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Chessmistress
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Postby Chessmistress » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:53 pm

Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:
Chessmistress wrote:
I will be very clear:
If in future there will be mainly unisex bathrooms and special women-only bathrooms for traumatised women, then I'll declare I've been traumatised in order to use women-only bathrooms instead of unisex bathrooms. In my case it would be true, but I know some women that would even lie about their supposed traumas in order to avoid unisex bathrooms, especially in some situations.

By all means then, lets be sure to name and shame, and suggest that anyone claiming it is a liar. That sounds like an outstanding solution.


If a woman feels uncomfortable using an unisex bathroom but there's no other way to use a women-only bathroom, then why she shouldn't say "I have been traumatised in the past within a similar environment"?
I hope some women will not enforced to lie in such way, but I think it's their right if other people will try to enforce who dislike it in an unisex bathromm.
I always said the ideal solution, for all people, supporters and opposers, would be: women's bathroom, males' bathroom, and gender-neutral bathroom.
It would be very balanced: I don't think I'm always right, maybe I'm wrong even about unisex bathrooms.
If I'm wrong, with three different kinds of bathrooms, libfems will have the opportunity to show to us all that in unisex bathrooms they aren't more at risk to being raped or something... 8) "feminists" male will have the opportunity to not have urinals within the unisex bathrooms :lol: so these people will be very useful for all community, experimenting unisex bathrooms :clap:
also, at the same time, keeping women's bathrooms, we'll keep healthy the concept of women's safe spaces.

However it seems we have a thing in common: I often avoid public bathrooms and restrooms, I don't think it's particularly healthy, just due germs and these things. It's not a fixation, sometimes I use it, but if I have the chance, I just avoid public bathrooms and restrooms.
Last edited by Chessmistress on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:57 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed law and know that, in Canada, gender and sex are the same thing

OOC:
Radical Feminist, caring about the oppressed gender, that's why I have a strong sense of justice.

PRO:
Radical Feminism (proudly SWERF - moderately TERF),
Gender abolitionism,
birth control and population control,
affirmative ongoing VERBAL consent,
death penalty for rapists.

AGAINST:
patriarchy,
pornography,
heteronormativity,
domestic violence and femicide.


Favorite Quotes: http://www.nationstates.net/nation=ches ... /id=403173

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Rock Lobsters
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Postby Rock Lobsters » Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:56 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:
However it seems we have a thing in common: I often avoid public bathrooms and restrooms, I don't think it's particularly healthy, just due germs and these things. It's not a fixation, sometimes I use it, but if I have the chance, I just avoid public bathrooms and restrooms.

I know the feeling. The second I have to put a piece of paper over the toilet seat, is the second I hold it until I get home.
Last edited by Rock Lobsters on Thu Sep 10, 2015 3:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:00 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:Reading comprehension fail.
Approximately 4/5 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
82% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.


Wrong.
Even if English is not my native language is your reading comprehension that fails.
It's 4/5 of sexual assaults BUT 47% of rapes
https://rainn.org/statistics
So, it's EXACTLY

"47% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance" sounds to me "53% rapists are unknown person, you're 12,6759% more likely to be raped by an unknown person than by a friend or acquaintance".
It's still enough to be afraid by unknown persons within a public bathroom...


You may better off without negating evidence.
Even if 80% sexual assaulters are non-strangers, women are MORE likely to be raped by unknown persons: 53%.

You seems don't care about the likeliness (53%) that women could be raped by unknown males within public bathrooms:


You're drawing an artificial distinction, as you'd know if you followed the link and clicked through.

Let me show you: https://rainn.org/get-information/stati ... -offenders

    "Approximately 4/5 of rapes were committed by someone known to the victim.
    82% of sexual assaults were perpetrated by a non-stranger.
    47% of rapists are a friend or acquaintance.
    25% are an intimate.
    5% are a relative."

I think where you were going wrong was assuming that they weren't talking about the SAME rapes/sexual assaults in both cases - you were confused by the wording, perhaps. I prefer to believe that than that you were just arguing semantics.
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Stellonia
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Postby Stellonia » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:01 pm

How is the term "sexual assault" defined by the source?

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Webus
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Postby Webus » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:03 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:It is commonly taught that modern Western societies are no longer segregated. However, this is a lie. Society might no longer be racially segregated, but bathrooms remain segregated. Males can only use one of two sets of bathrooms in a building/floor, and females can only use the other of the two sets.

Is this a problem?

I think it is. Segregated bathrooms must end.

Segregated bathrooms will continue to promote divisions in society between the genders and the sexes; they are also unacceptably callous towards people who might not identify comfortably with either of the two genders/sexes or who may look different from the side they would rather identify with. It is a pointless exercise in social division. What is the point in keeping bathrooms separate? It does nothing but reinforce labels.

There is another problem. It is unfair for the females. Females generally wait longer than males to use the facilities; this is discrimination. I can speak from personal experience. Having traveled to many parts of the planet it always seems the case that the line-up for the female side is much longer. Why is this? Well its because of the design. Facilities are separate but NOT equal. Male facilities have exclusive access to urinals and so the line up is shorter. The true solution to equality is to have one bathroom for all genders and to remove the urinals (females can't use them anyway and they provide an unfair advantage to a set of the population in wait time). This way, EVERYONE gets an average wait time for relief that is approximately equal and that isn't affected by the availability of equipment. You can still maintain two washrooms per building but EVERYONE should be allowed to use either one and they should both be completely stocked with bowls.

Bathrooms should be unified. What are people scared of?

So here is the discussion question.

1. Are segregated bathrooms a problem?

2. What should/can be done to reform current facilities to promote equality?

I think Gender Neutral Bathrooms are preferable, but this not a huge problem like you make it out to be.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Sep 10, 2015 4:06 pm

Chessmistress wrote:
Dread Lady Nathicana wrote:By all means then, lets be sure to name and shame, and suggest that anyone claiming it is a liar. That sounds like an outstanding solution.


If a woman feels uncomfortable using an unisex bathroom but there's no other way to use a women-only bathroom, then why she shouldn't say "I have been traumatised in the past within a similar environment"?
I hope some women will not enforced to lie in such way, but I think it's their right if other people will try to enforce who dislike it in an unisex bathromm.
I always said the ideal solution, for all people, supporters and opposers, would be: women's bathroom, males' bathroom, and gender-neutral bathroom.
It would be very balanced: I don't think I'm always right, maybe I'm wrong even about unisex bathrooms.
If I'm wrong, with three different kinds of bathrooms, libfems will have the opportunity to show to us all that in unisex bathrooms they aren't more at risk to being raped or something... 8) "feminists" male will have the opportunity to not have urinals within the unisex bathrooms :lol: so these people will be very useful for all community, experimenting unisex bathrooms :clap:
also, at the same time, keeping women's bathrooms, we'll keep healthy the concept of women's safe spaces.

However it seems we have a thing in common: I often avoid public bathrooms and restrooms, I don't think it's particularly healthy, just due germs and these things. It's not a fixation, sometimes I use it, but if I have the chance, I just avoid public bathrooms and restrooms.


If i were a rapist, or the type of fellow who beat up trans folks for fun, the type of bathroom available wouldn't really make much of a difference in the behavior. I don't see how a bathroom for "tramatized " women would help except in pointing out easy victims to the rapist.
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