Trying on Kimono = Cultural Appropriation?

[Wanderjar]

Because the impression everyone around you gets is that the Cossacks are just this cool exotic "other" culture that we can use for fantastical and simple entertainment. I don't think cultures should ever be viewed from that kind of standpoint. Cross-cultural exchange happens when you view other cultures as complex and multi-faceted and genuinely want to learn about them.

Something oft, perhaps even always, beginning with the noticing of aesthetic differences in clothing, architecture, and other visible signs of cultural difference.

People notice and may try on cowboy hats before they're even capable of noticing other aspects of ranching/Western culture. People notice and try Oktoberfest and bratwurst before knowing the reason for Oktoberfest or how bratwurst was/is made. People notice and try kimonos (or any other clothing item--kilts, hats, boots, top hats, tuxedos, etc.) before noticing the reasons they are what they are or the whys of how they are/were used. Cross-cultural exchange is, at least partially, built on aesthetic differences leading to appreciations for deeper reasons for those differences.

I grew up on a cattle ranch and am mortally offended when non-ranch hands wear cowboy boots and hats!

(For the record...real cowboys don't wear that crap just wannabe rednecks lol)

[Aculea]

kawaiiiiiii (des ne?).

It's true, oh God it's true, she does this. ANIME DID NOT LIE TO YOU!

[Divitaen]

Because the impression everyone around you gets is that the Cossacks are just this cool exotic "other" culture that we can use for fantastical and simple entertainment. I don't think cultures should ever be viewed from that kind of standpoint. Cross-cultural exchange happens when you view other cultures as complex and multi-faceted and genuinely want to learn about them.

And if I never wore that outfit people might have never known in the first place what a Cossack was. I have no issue what so ever putting my culture on display like that, it's not like I was promoting a negative image of Cossacks. Educate when asked questions about it that was my attitude.

Did everyone ask questions? Or did most people just assume it was a cool-looking outfit and left it at that?

[Divitaen]

That is why its worn, and unmarried Japanese women wear the furisode for special occasions such as the Coming of Age Day.

That's why it is worn now. Prior to the 1920s/1930s it was everyday wear.

The formal kimono was replaced by the more convenient Western clothes and yukata as everyday wear. After an edict by Emperor Meiji, police, railroad men and teachers moved to Western clothes. The Western clothes became the army and school uniform for boys. After the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake, kimono wearers often became victims of robbery because they could not run very fast due to the restricting nature of the kimono on the body and geta clogs. The Tokyo Women's & Children's Wear Manufacturers' Association promoted Western clothes. Between 1920 and 1930 the sailor outfit replaced the undivided hakama in school uniforms for girls. The 1932 fire at Shirokiya's Nihonbashi store is said to have been the catalyst for the decline in kimonos as everyday wear. The national uniform, Kokumin-fuku, a type of Western clothes, was mandated for males in 1940. Today most people wear Western clothes and wear the breezier and more comfortable yukata for special occasions.

Its still degradation, either way. Wearing the kimono for formal occasions or wearing it as everyday wear, it doesn't change the fact that someone wearing it for one time at a museum for fun and to look exotic and "new" degrades the value of the kimono.

[Egoman]

kawaiiiiiii (des ne?).

It's true, oh God it's true, she does this. ANIME DID NOT LIE TO YOU!

I'm so fucking jealous of you right now.

[Egoman]

That's why it is worn now. Prior to the 1920s/1930s it was everyday wear.

The formal kimono was replaced by the more convenient Western clothes and yukata as everyday wear. After an edict by Emperor Meiji, police, railroad men and teachers moved to Western clothes. The Western clothes became the army and school uniform for boys. After the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake, kimono wearers often became victims of robbery because they could not run very fast due to the restricting nature of the kimono on the body and geta clogs. The Tokyo Women's & Children's Wear Manufacturers' Association promoted Western clothes. Between 1920 and 1930 the sailor outfit replaced the undivided hakama in school uniforms for girls. The 1932 fire at Shirokiya's Nihonbashi store is said to have been the catalyst for the decline in kimonos as everyday wear. The national uniform, Kokumin-fuku, a type of Western clothes, was mandated for males in 1940. Today most people wear Western clothes and wear the breezier and more comfortable yukata for special occasions.

Its still degradation, either way. Wearing the kimono for formal occasions or wearing it as everyday wear, it doesn't change the fact that someone wearing it for one time at a museum for fun and to look exotic and "new" degrades the value of the kimono.

In your eyes, of course.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

And if I never wore that outfit people might have never known in the first place what a Cossack was. I have no issue what so ever putting my culture on display like that, it's not like I was promoting a negative image of Cossacks. Educate when asked questions about it that was my attitude.

Did everyone ask questions? Or did most people just assume it was a cool-looking outfit and left it at that?

Why wouldn't they? Cossack wear is cool.

[Dyakovo]

That's why it is worn now. Prior to the 1920s/1930s it was everyday wear.

The formal kimono was replaced by the more convenient Western clothes and yukata as everyday wear. After an edict by Emperor Meiji, police, railroad men and teachers moved to Western clothes. The Western clothes became the army and school uniform for boys. After the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake, kimono wearers often became victims of robbery because they could not run very fast due to the restricting nature of the kimono on the body and geta clogs. The Tokyo Women's & Children's Wear Manufacturers' Association promoted Western clothes. Between 1920 and 1930 the sailor outfit replaced the undivided hakama in school uniforms for girls. The 1932 fire at Shirokiya's Nihonbashi store is said to have been the catalyst for the decline in kimonos as everyday wear. The national uniform, Kokumin-fuku, a type of Western clothes, was mandated for males in 1940. Today most people wear Western clothes and wear the breezier and more comfortable yukata for special occasions.

Its still degradation, either way. Wearing the kimono for formal occasions or wearing it as everyday wear, it doesn't change the fact that someone wearing it for one time at a museum for fun and to look exotic and "new" degrades the value of the kimono.

ITT: Trying on clothes once is degradation.

[Replevion]

He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

Also, the meaning of cultural appropriation should be remembered.

Japan isn't dominant over the West, meaning that it's rather difficult for Japan to culturally appropriate from the West.

Non-western peoples don't wear Western business attire in order to seem exotic and edgy; they do it in order to survive in a world where the more you emulate the West, the more seriously you are taken. People wouldn't take a Japanese person seriously who showed up in a kimono to a business meeting, or a Korean guy wearing hanbok to a session of the National Assembly.

Really, it's just false equivalence. It's like when people assume there's the same dynamics in play when a black cop kills a white person as when a white cop kills a black person.

also i think i am only person in thread to agree with youuuuu

maybe also only other azn? lol

I certainly would love to see a world where that sort of Western chauvinism was extinct, where formal attire across cultures was uniformly respected. Couple years ago I wore a very high quality changshan to my company Christmas party (which was filled with Western suits), and it made quite an impression. Even got a lot of compliments from my Chinese-born coworkers.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Its still degradation, either way. Wearing the kimono for formal occasions or wearing it as everyday wear, it doesn't change the fact that someone wearing it for one time at a museum for fun and to look exotic and "new" degrades the value of the kimono.

ITT: Trying on clothes once is degradation.

ITT: Degradation is a legitimate threat.

[The Alexanderians]

And if I never wore that outfit people might have never known in the first place what a Cossack was. I have no issue what so ever putting my culture on display like that, it's not like I was promoting a negative image of Cossacks. Educate when asked questions about it that was my attitude.

Did everyone ask questions? Or did most people just assume it was a cool-looking outfit and left it at that?

Past teachers asking me why I was wearing it and my friends asking what it was, no. Mainly because my friends already knew what Cossacks were. Only a few people who didn't know asked questions and I'm perfectly ok with that. I wore it because I choose to. Because I wanted to. I need no other reason and no one's permission (Except the school's since they have a dress code...it didn't violate it for some reason).

[Dyakovo]

Its still degradation, either way. Wearing the kimono for formal occasions or wearing it as everyday wear, it doesn't change the fact that someone wearing it for one time at a museum for fun and to look exotic and "new" degrades the value of the kimono.

In your eyes, of course.

The eyes of someone who clearly knows very little about the Kimono and it's history...

[Aculea]

Literally half my family is Japanese.

What part? Cuz you've got an out if you're from Kyushu or some other retrograde district. You can claim to be simply out of touch with Tokyo. Or Kyoto, if you're near Kyoto you must have seen the kimono rental shops and the tourists wandering the streets taking selfies in front of sacred Buddhist monasteries. I got to climb inside the daibutsu and see how he was made, best part of the trip.

[Divitaen]

Did everyone ask questions? Or did most people just assume it was a cool-looking outfit and left it at that?

Why wouldn't they? Cossack wear is cool.

Potentially blackface is cool too. Potentially wearing a Native American bonnet is cool too. Doesn't make it right.

[The Alexanderians]

Did everyone ask questions? Or did most people just assume it was a cool-looking outfit and left it at that?

Why wouldn't they? Cossack wear is cool.

Thank you.

[New Granadeseret]

It shouldn't have to go through a "oh, look at that!" phase. And as many have mentioned before, people can go on to eat sushi, to learn and study the Japanese Shinto religion in universities, watch documentaries on Japan, you know, actually bother learning about Japanese culture and Japanese way of life. Instead you just try a kimono once, take a picture, and pat yourself on the back for such an incredible cultural immersion.

Yes it does. This is an entirely new culture looking over it; people with different tastes and values then the place it originated. Sorry, but getting a pass by one group is NOT the same as getting the same pass from another. Now, I agree that if somebody put on the kimono and said "I was immersed in Japanese culture", then that'd be horribly false, but most people aren't looking for full immersion. They're looking to dip their toes in something that has immediate interest and, if that interest proves deeper, THEN they can delve into it. Here, it's a curio, just as Western stuff was when it was introduced en-mass to essentially anywhere. I have no problem with Japanese girls trying on euro-inspired Gothic Loli cloths one time and taking pics about how cute it is because that's their business, not mine: I'm confident enough in my culture and people's willingness to sustain it that I don't need to go crazy about this virtually non-existant nic to it's credibility. And if the protestors had any confidence in the custodians of Japanese culture they woulden't be so afraid either; or, at the very least, they'd be calling for cultural information alongside the experience rather then just banning the experience.

Why should it have to? Why must something be simplified, commodified and turned into an exotic theme park before people start flocking to it? I get that people may not have the patience and energy to research into other cultures into detail and appreciate their authenticity, but must our corporate consumer culture pander to this by turning and reducing every foreign culture into trinkets, fads and trends for our liking? I'm sorry but I'd rather have a smaller consumer base which actually bothers to understand and comprehends these cultures before dabbling in them like children's toys.

Because every aspect of every culture does; things imported from abroad is essentially the same as something new being invented at home. Because that's how you get people's attention. Delving deep into the culture and history of a thing is work, and people aren't willing to put forth the effort for something they have no reason to care anything about. You ever wonder why there's a brief description and cover art on books? It's so it can catch people's attention and give them enough information to convince them to actually go through and read the whole thing. Should just wanting to read the first page obligate me to read the entire series? Would anybody every develop an interest in, say, engineering if your required them to take a university course before they were even allowed to tinker with their first hobbist woodworker kit? (A 'children's toy' as you put it?) I bet any amateur you put that ultimatum before would drop the idea faster then if you'd just stayed out of the way and let him take his own course.

Furthermore, a "corporate consumer culture" is designed to sell things. It panders to consumers by it's very definition. If you want to make a change, that starts by changing the minds of the masses... and to do that you have to give them a reason to give two bits about what it is you're fighting for in the first place. And your demand that they either be avente gardee or nothing at all means your base of support is going to be small.

[Replevion]

kawaiiiiiii (des ne?).

It's true, oh God it's true, she does this. ANIME DID NOT LIE TO YOU!

I've spent half my life studying East Asian society, both contemporary and historical, so I'm not basing my assumptions purely on anime.

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

That's pretty dumb. It's like saying wearing Samurai armour or owning a katana is racist.

[Egoman]

Why wouldn't they? Cossack wear is cool.

Potentially blackface is cool too. Potentially wearing a Native American bonnet is cool too. Doesn't make it right.

It doesn't make it wrong either, dammit. Go away, fun police.

Why wouldn't they? Cossack wear is cool.

Thank you.

Why aren't you offended?

[Egoman]

That's pretty dumb. It's like saying wearing Samurai armour or owning a katana is racist.

Uh oh. You're about to have your world rocked by a certain someone here...

[The Alexanderians]

Potentially blackface is cool too. Potentially wearing a Native American bonnet is cool too. Doesn't make it right.

It doesn't make it wrong either, dammit. Go away, fun police.

Thank you.

Why aren't you offended?

Cause I wasn't insulted, I was flattered that my culture is appreciated.

[Divitaen]

Because every aspect of every culture does; things imported from abroad is essentially the same as something new being invented at home. Because that's how you get people's attention. Delving deep into the culture and history of a thing is work, and people aren't willing to put forth the effort for something they have no reason to care anything about. You ever wonder why there's a brief description and cover art on books? It's so it can catch people's attention and give them enough information to convince them to actually go through and read the whole thing. Should just wanting to read the first page obligate me to read the entire series? Would anybody every develop an interest in, say, engineering if your required them to take a university course before they were even allowed to tinker with their first hobbist woodworker kit? (A 'children's toy' as you put it?) I bet any amateur you put that ultimatum before would drop the idea faster then if you'd just stayed out of the way and let him take his own course.

Furthermore, a "corporate consumer culture" is designed to sell things. It panders to consumers by it's very definition. If you want to make a change, that starts by changing the minds of the masses... and to do that you have to give them a reason to give two bits about what it is you're fighting for in the first place. And your demand that they either be avente gardee or nothing at all means your base of support is going to be small.

I don't think it will eventually change my minds though. The result is you just have an extremely large consumer base, all convinced that the entire culture is represented by a few toys, some cool TV shows and a few neat tricks, but refuse to go further than that. And to have cultural appropriation on a mass scale doesn't make this any better. I'm not asking everyone to go to university, but at the very least companies and organisations shouldn't sell out for the sake of appealing to mass consumerism.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Why wouldn't they? Cossack wear is cool.

Potentially blackface is cool too.

I just love that word,"potential". I can put it in any false statement and it makes it technically true.

Potentially wearing a Native American bonnet is cool too.

Not potentially. The Native Americans wore it because it's cool, so they're not special.

Doesn't make it right.

That's, like, your opinion, man.

[Aculea]

I'm so fucking jealous of you right now.

I'm very sorry. I usually hide it for exactly this reason. But this isn't an abstract argument for me. When I read this thread I don't see people judging imaginary tourists in some museum, I see people judging me, directly, the way I live my life, and my relationship with my wife, and that means honesty. I put the kawaii thing on the table because it's something else where one can assume the wrong thing very easily.

[Egoman]

It doesn't make it wrong either, dammit. Go away, fun police.


Why aren't you offended?

Cause I wasn't insulted, I was flattered that my culture is appreciated.

But your culture... it was degraded... cuz appropriation and shiz... Ur reghts r opprussud!