Trying on Kimono = Cultural Appropriation?

[The Alexanderians]

This isen't happening in Japan; it's happening in a place where the Kimono has never been as important a part of the local culture as it is in it's homeland. Like anything new or unusual (IE not being deeply ingrained in the local culture), it IS an oddity and has to go through the "oh, look at that!" stage before people decide weather to make it a full part of their culture (For instance, what happened when the Kimono was first introduced in Japan) or leave it as a fringe or temporary element (Like the pet rock). One can have something exist within society and not have it be a reverent part of the culture, and I'm not obligated to treat something as holy because anybody else does.

For example, I eat genetically modified wild rice. There is a Native American tribe in our region who thinks they have a sacred obligation to preserve the rice as it was. Must I only eat it in their traditional way and destroy all genetically modified rice within possible fertilizing distance of them just because their culture says THEY should act a certain way?

It shouldn't have to go through a "oh, look at that!" phase. And as many have mentioned before, people can go on to eat sushi, to learn and study the Japanese Shinto religion in universities, watch documentaries on Japan, you know, actually bother learning about Japanese culture and Japanese way of life. Instead you just try a kimono once, take a picture, and pat yourself on the back for such an incredible cultural immersion.

I've specifically shown up in school dressed as a cossack simply because I could not to educate people, not to make a point, simply cause I thought it was cool and so did my friends. What is wrong with that?

[Aculea]

I can't even believe that was an argument. Tuxes are hella boring. Anybody should jump at the opportunity to wear something more interesting for their wedding. I'm... obviously biased, of course.

I was concerned about cultural appropriation. I brought it up. She looked at me like I had a third nipple under my chin and gave me a few words, after which I never brought it up again.

[Egoman]

THAT'S WHY IT'S WORN IN THE FIRST PLACE! Becasue it's a cute dress. Japanese girls and women wear them because it's a cute dress, same reason a western woman wears a dress. If I see an asian woman in a western style suit or dress I'll be sure to reminder her it's cultural appropriation for your sake. How's that grab you?

This is exactly what I'm worried about. Its not a cute dress. Its a traditional garment worn at special occasions and ceremonies such as tea ceremonies or weddings. Its not meant to be a simple, childish, cute dress. Taking a traditional, honoured garment and turning it into an object of "cool" entertainment at one exhibit for you to "try on" for "fun" is exactly what causes people to view the kimono differently.

Subjective, subjective, subjective, subjective is all I'm hearing. Simple? Childish? That's in your eyes when people do it.

[Divitaen]

For example, I eat genetically modified wild rice. There is a Native American tribe in our region who thinks they have a sacred obligation to preserve the rice as it was. Must I only eat it in their traditional way and destroy all genetically modified rice within possible fertilizing distance of them just because their culture says THEY should act a certain way?

It shouldn't have to go through a "oh, look at that!" phase. And as many have mentioned before, people can go on to eat sushi, to learn and study the Japanese Shinto religion in universities, watch documentaries on Japan, you know, actually bother learning about Japanese culture and Japanese way of life. Instead you just try a kimono once, take a picture, and pat yourself on the back for such an incredible cultural immersion.

Yes it does. This is an entirely new culture looking over it; people with different tastes and values then the place it originated. Sorry, but getting a pass by one group is NOT the same as getting the same pass from another. Now, I agree that if somebody put on the kimono and said "I was immersed in Japanese culture", then that'd be horribly false, but most people aren't looking for full immersion. They're looking to dip their toes in something that has immediate interest and, if that interest proves deeper, THEN they can delve into it. Here, it's a curio, just as Western stuff was when it was introduced en-mass to essentially anywhere. I have no problem with Japanese girls trying on euro-inspired Gothic Loli cloths one time and taking pics about how cute it is because that's their business, not mine: I'm confident enough in my culture and people's willingness to sustain it that I don't need to go crazy about this virtually non-existant nic to it's credibility. And if the protestors had any confidence in the custodians of Japanese culture they woulden't be so afraid either; or, at the very least, they'd be calling for cultural information alongside the experience rather then just banning the experience.

Why should it have to? Why must something be simplified, commodified and turned into an exotic theme park before people start flocking to it? I get that people may not have the patience and energy to research into other cultures into detail and appreciate their authenticity, but must our corporate consumer culture pander to this by turning and reducing every foreign culture into trinkets, fads and trends for our liking? I'm sorry but I'd rather have a smaller consumer base which actually bothers to understand and comprehends these cultures before dabbling in them like children's toys.

[Divitaen]

It shouldn't have to go through a "oh, look at that!" phase. And as many have mentioned before, people can go on to eat sushi, to learn and study the Japanese Shinto religion in universities, watch documentaries on Japan, you know, actually bother learning about Japanese culture and Japanese way of life. Instead you just try a kimono once, take a picture, and pat yourself on the back for such an incredible cultural immersion.

I've specifically shown up in school dressed as a cossack simply because I could not to educate people, not to make a point, simply cause I thought it was cool and so did my friends. What is wrong with that?

Because the impression everyone around you gets is that the Cossacks are just this cool exotic "other" culture that we can use for fantastical and simple entertainment. I don't think cultures should ever be viewed from that kind of standpoint. Cross-cultural exchange happens when you view other cultures as complex and multi-faceted and genuinely want to learn about them.

[Aculea]

This is exactly what I'm worried about. Its not a cute dress. Its a traditional garment worn at special occasions and ceremonies such as tea ceremonies or weddings.

This is so painfully ignorant of Japanese culture that I must request your qualifications to speak on this subject.

[New Grestin]

Once I tried a kimono.
Due my experience I don't think the real issue should be about "appropriating and degrading Japanese culture" but it should be about the fact that "kimonos are degrading to women".
My conclusion is: a kimono is the exact opposite of a comfortable dress, and I think is a very misogynistic dress, meant to limit women's freedom of movement.
I think it should be banned, along with other and even more misogynistic dresses like Abaya and Burqa.

I think skinny jeans are uncomfortable and limit movement, so they must be a tool of the patriarchy to oppress women.

Logic is nice.

[Divitaen]

This is exactly what I'm worried about. Its not a cute dress. Its a traditional garment worn at special occasions and ceremonies such as tea ceremonies or weddings.

This is so painfully ignorant of Japanese culture that I must request your qualifications to speak on this subject.

That is why its worn, and unmarried Japanese women wear the furisode for special occasions such as the Coming of Age Day.

[Wanderjar]

That's absolutely ridiculous. I'm so sick of this 'everything's racist!' trend of late. It's garbage. People finding another culture beautiful and worthy of emulation and borrowing it's symbols isn't 'cultural appropriation' any more than Japanese people tending towards wearing western style clothing is.

It's one thing if they purposefully slanted their eyes and made buck-teeth at the camera to poke fun at caricatures of Asian stereotypes, but they aren't. I for one am a Native American and don't find it racist whatsoever when people don (culturally unrealistic) feathered headdresses and warpaint, but still find it amusing and fun as long as its done in respect for the, at least perceived, warrior culture of my tribe(s) (in particular, Cherokee from my father's father and Seminole from my mother's mother). I can sympathize with some sentiment that such things are kinda racist, but I prefer to view it as a respectful gesture.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I've specifically shown up in school dressed as a cossack simply because I could not to educate people, not to make a point, simply cause I thought it was cool and so did my friends. What is wrong with that?

Because the impression everyone around you gets is that the Cossacks are just this cool exotic "other" culture that we can use for fantastical and simple entertainment. I don't think cultures should ever be viewed from that kind of standpoint. Cross-cultural exchange happens when you view other cultures as complex and multi-faceted and genuinely want to learn about them.

Please describe the intricacies of the design and history of a piece of clothing that make its status sacred and inviolable.

[Egoman]

delete

[New Skaaneland]

If one guy in 10 000 takes on a kimono it's just him standing out, buit I suppose that if it became a trend spanning different segments of society then it's what you call "Cultural Appropriation".

[Replevion]

THAT'S WHY IT'S WORN IN THE FIRST PLACE! Becasue it's a cute dress. Japanese girls and women wear them because it's a cute dress, same reason a western woman wears a dress. If I see an asian woman in a western style suit or dress I'll be sure to reminder her it's cultural appropriation for your sake. How's that grab you?

This is exactly what I'm worried about. Its not a cute dress. Its a traditional garment worn at special occasions and ceremonies such as tea ceremonies or weddings. Its not meant to be a simple, childish, cute dress. Taking a traditional, honoured garment and turning it into an object of "cool" entertainment at one exhibit for you to "try on" for "fun" is exactly what causes people to view the kimono differently.

So you're going to argue with the man's wife, who's Japanese, and wears it casually because it's kawaiiiiiii (des ne?).

I'm a proponent of things like the hanfu revival movement, anything that can revive the dress of ethnic groups and make it a living thing suffused in daily life is a good thing to me. And yeah, that's going to mean some trivialization, because it used to be trivial in the sense that it was essentially a uniform of racial and class identity. Promoting it across racial barriers and class barriers may nominally trivialize it, but are those barriers we want enforced? Should nobody wear a black gat because there's no Korean aristocracy anymore?

[The Alexanderians]

THAT'S WHY IT'S WORN IN THE FIRST PLACE! Becasue it's a cute dress. Japanese girls and women wear them because it's a cute dress, same reason a western woman wears a dress. If I see an asian woman in a western style suit or dress I'll be sure to reminder her it's cultural appropriation for your sake. How's that grab you?

This is exactly what I'm worried about. Its not a cute dress. Its a traditional garment worn at special occasions and ceremonies such as tea ceremonies or weddings. Its not meant to be a simple, childish, cute dress. Taking a traditional, honoured garment and turning it into an object of "cool" entertainment at one exhibit for you to "try on" for "fun" is exactly what causes people to view the kimono differently.

I'm not sure you're paying attention or you have and you're just doubling down on your original stance so you don't have to admit you're wrong. Multiple people have told you, it's not a ornate only dress it's body ornamentation pure and simple. People wear them by the virtue that they are something to improve your appearance with. It's not different than if a dress is being worn to a cocktail party or as a sunday best.

[USS Monitor]

Dem hurrurs. It really just seems you're upset because westerners do it and then try to justify it when non-westerners do it.

I don't justify it when non-Westerners do it. Like I mentioned earlier, if a Japanese man walks into a museum, tries on a Western business suit for one exhibit and takes pictures and parades it on social media lauding how "white" he looks, then that's terrible too.

Got any evidence that people are parading their pictures on social media and lauding how "Japanese" they look? I don't see how that is inherent in allowing people to have their picture taken.

[Replevion]

I can't even believe that was an argument. Tuxes are hella boring. Anybody should jump at the opportunity to wear something more interesting for their wedding. I'm... obviously biased, of course.

I was concerned about cultural appropriation. I brought it up. She looked at me like I had a third nipple under my chin and gave me a few words, after which I never brought it up again.

Ooohh... you're a catch. Lucky woman...

[Divitaen]

Yes it does. This is an entirely new culture looking over it; people with different tastes and values then the place it originated. Sorry, but getting a pass by one group is NOT the same as getting the same pass from another. Now, I agree that if somebody put on the kimono and said "I was immersed in Japanese culture", then that'd be horribly false, but most people aren't looking for full immersion. They're looking to dip their toes in something that has immediate interest and, if that interest proves deeper, THEN they can delve into it. Here, it's a curio, just as Western stuff was when it was introduced en-mass to essentially anywhere. I have no problem with Japanese girls trying on euro-inspired Gothic Loli cloths one time and taking pics about how cute it is because that's their business, not mine: I'm confident enough in my culture and people's willingness to sustain it that I don't need to go crazy about this virtually non-existant nic to it's credibility. And if the protestors had any confidence in the custodians of Japanese culture they woulden't be so afraid either; or, at the very least, they'd be calling for cultural information alongside the experience rather then just banning the experience.

Why should it have to? Why must something be simplified, commodified and turned into an exotic theme park before people start flocking to it? I get that people may not have the patience and energy to research into other cultures into detail and appreciate their authenticity, but must our corporate consumer culture pander to this by turning and reducing every foreign culture into trinkets, fads and trends for our liking? I'm sorry but I'd rather have a smaller consumer base which actually bothers to understand and comprehends these cultures before dabbling in them like children's toys.

You are right now promoting the same thing you just condemned. You're hopeless.

That was written by New Granaderset. Not me. Please don't misquote me on these issues.

[Occupied Deutschland]

I've specifically shown up in school dressed as a cossack simply because I could not to educate people, not to make a point, simply cause I thought it was cool and so did my friends. What is wrong with that?

Because the impression everyone around you gets is that the Cossacks are just this cool exotic "other" culture that we can use for fantastical and simple entertainment. I don't think cultures should ever be viewed from that kind of standpoint. Cross-cultural exchange happens when you view other cultures as complex and multi-faceted and genuinely want to learn about them.

Something oft, perhaps even always, beginning with the noticing of aesthetic differences in clothing, architecture, and other visible signs of cultural difference.

People notice and may try on cowboy hats before they're even capable of noticing other aspects of ranching/Western culture. People notice and try Oktoberfest and bratwurst before knowing the reason for Oktoberfest or how bratwurst was/is made. People notice and try kimonos (or any other clothing item--kilts, hats, boots, top hats, tuxedos, etc.) before noticing the reasons they are what they are or the whys of how they are/were used. Cross-cultural exchange is, at least partially, built on aesthetic differences leading to appreciations for deeper reasons for those differences.

[Aculea]

This is so painfully ignorant of Japanese culture that I must request your qualifications to speak on this subject.

That is why its worn, and unmarried Japanese women wear the furisode for special occasions such as the Coming of Age Day.

I did not ask for you to repeat your opinion, I asked for you to submit your qualifications.

I have to admit, my qualifications are kind of flimsy. I married a Japanese woman. She took me to Japan for a few weeks. I think I've seen every picture she's ever taken her entire life, and trust me, I was fascinated at all the places people were willing to wear Kimono, so I noticed. I can't really comment on things like the deeper meaning of the kimono or how much Japan as a community respects it and its purpose, I can only offer eye witness testimony contradicting your suggestion.

You're either ignorant or so ivory tower you can't remember which side of the road Japanese drive on.

[The Alexanderians]

I've specifically shown up in school dressed as a cossack simply because I could not to educate people, not to make a point, simply cause I thought it was cool and so did my friends. What is wrong with that?

Because the impression everyone around you gets is that the Cossacks are just this cool exotic "other" culture that we can use for fantastical and simple entertainment. I don't think cultures should ever be viewed from that kind of standpoint. Cross-cultural exchange happens when you view other cultures as complex and multi-faceted and genuinely want to learn about them.

And if I never wore that outfit people might have never known in the first place what a Cossack was. I have no issue what so ever putting my culture on display like that, it's not like I was promoting a negative image of Cossacks. Educate when asked questions about it that was my attitude.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

I don't justify it when non-Westerners do it. Like I mentioned earlier, if a Japanese man walks into a museum, tries on a Western business suit for one exhibit and takes pictures and parades it on social media lauding how "white" he looks, then that's terrible too.

Got any evidence that people are parading their pictures on social media and lauding how "Japanese" they look? I don't see how that is inherent in allowing people to have their picture taken.

I'm pretty sure they're less interested in being a Japanese and more interested in emulating a work of art.

[Dyakovo]

This is so painfully ignorant of Japanese culture that I must request your qualifications to speak on this subject.

That is why its worn, and unmarried Japanese women wear the furisode for special occasions such as the Coming of Age Day.

That's why it is worn now. Prior to the 1920s/1930s it was everyday wear.

The formal kimono was replaced by the more convenient Western clothes and yukata as everyday wear. After an edict by Emperor Meiji, police, railroad men and teachers moved to Western clothes. The Western clothes became the army and school uniform for boys. After the 1923 Great Kantō earthquake, kimono wearers often became victims of robbery because they could not run very fast due to the restricting nature of the kimono on the body and geta clogs. The Tokyo Women's & Children's Wear Manufacturers' Association promoted Western clothes. Between 1920 and 1930 the sailor outfit replaced the undivided hakama in school uniforms for girls. The 1932 fire at Shirokiya's Nihonbashi store is said to have been the catalyst for the decline in kimonos as everyday wear. The national uniform, Kokumin-fuku, a type of Western clothes, was mandated for males in 1940. Today most people wear Western clothes and wear the breezier and more comfortable yukata for special occasions.

[Egoman]

You are right now promoting the same thing you just condemned. You're hopeless.

That was written by New Granaderset. Not me. Please don't misquote me on these issues.

Oh shit. My bad.

[Alyakia]

This is so painfully ignorant of Japanese culture that I must request your qualifications to speak on this subject.

That is why its worn, and unmarried Japanese women wear the furisode for special occasions such as the Coming of Age Day.

tbh i wouldn't be surprised if you didn't even know men wore them

[Divitaen]

That is why its worn, and unmarried Japanese women wear the furisode for special occasions such as the Coming of Age Day.

tbh i wouldn't be surprised if you didn't even know men wore them

Of course I did. Stop making wild assumptions. Literally half my family is Japanese.