Trying on Kimono = Cultural Appropriation?

[Divitaen]

And they as a community own and forged that cultural element, they can do what they want with it. If the Japanese want to turn the kimono into a fad for Japanese people, then fine. But it smacks of cultural arrogance for another community to come in, take the kimono and turn it into their own fad.

Why? We are all humans, are we not? Why shouldn't we share our cultures with each other. By this logic my marital arts and sword classes are cultural appropriation. What I I wear my cousin's russian army uniform? Is that also cultural appropriation? Or how about drinking tequila is that cultural appropriation of mexicans?

No, that's cultural exchange. That's you genuinely using a part or element of another culture as its meant to be. Reducing a traditional Japanese garment, which was so honoured it could only be worn at tea ceremonies, weddings or other formal occasions, and turning it into a pretty, cute exotic dress for you to try on once, take a picture and laugh about how cute and pretty you look in it, is not the same as innocent cultural exchange.

[Risottia]

I suppose you have some source complete with data and statistics.


I see you don't have a problem with Japanese people (population about 100 million people) appropriating a Croatian (population about 4 million people) item as a fad and chatting about it.

I have a problem with the Japanese doing it to other cultures as well.

So, please, your comment about this:

[Divitaen]

Trying on fancy clothes is crass entertainment?

Only if it's Westerners trying on non-Westerner fancy clothing. Everything else is fine and dandy.

As I mentioned before, its bad whether its a Western conducting cultural appropriation or another culture.

[USS Monitor]

The protesters are the racist ones for saying that Japanese culture does not belong in America, or that culture is not meant to be shared. America is supposed to be a melting pot.

[Blobovia]

... what? And I thought my homeland Sweden was crazy.

My sister owns a kimono. Is she a racist now according to these people?

I mean, it's not exactly like they're dressing up as Tokio Kid...

[New Granadeseret]

It isn't the duty of people who aren't members of a culture to preserve that culture whole-cloth. If the Japanese want to preserve the full traditional cultural importance of the Kimono, then that's fine and dandy and there's nothing anybody in the West is doing to stop them.

They can do it, sure, but there's an element of degradation to reducing and bringing down an element of Japanese culture into a toy or tool of crass entertainment for Westerners. Of course we aren't stopping the Japanese from doing anything but the fact that this reduction is happening in the first place should be called out.

This isen't happening in Japan; it's happening in a place where the Kimono has never been as important a part of the local culture as it is in it's homeland. Like anything new or unusual (IE not being deeply ingrained in the local culture), it IS an oddity and has to go through the "oh, look at that!" stage before people decide weather to make it a full part of their culture (For instance, what happened when the Kimono was first introduced in Japan) or leave it as a fringe or temporary element (Like the pet rock). One can have something exist within society and not have it be a reverent part of the culture, and I'm not obligated to treat something as holy because anybody else does.

For example, I eat genetically modified wild rice. There is a Native American tribe in our region who thinks they have a sacred obligation to preserve the rice as it was. Must I only eat it in their traditional way and destroy all genetically modified rice within possible fertilizing distance of them just because their culture says THEY should act a certain way?

[Egoman]

Why? We are all humans, are we not? Why shouldn't we share our cultures with each other. By this logic my marital arts and sword classes are cultural appropriation. What I I wear my cousin's russian army uniform? Is that also cultural appropriation? Or how about drinking tequila is that cultural appropriation of mexicans?

No, that's cultural exchange. That's you genuinely using a part or element of another culture as its meant to be. Reducing a traditional Japanese garment, which was so honoured it could only be worn at tea ceremonies, weddings or other formal occasions, and turning it into a pretty, cute exotic dress for you to try on once, take a picture and laugh about how cute and pretty you look in it, is not the same as innocent cultural exchange.

The racist bastards. HOW DARE THEY...dress up in a dress. Umm...WHAT AN OUTRAGE!

[Egoman]

... what? And I thought my homeland Sweden was crazy.

My sister owns a kimono. Is she a racist now according to these people?

Yes, as is every white person in Sweden, if you know what I mean.

[The Alexanderians]

Trying on fancy clothes is crass entertainment?

Only if it's Westerners trying on non-Westerner fancy clothing. Everything else is fine and dandy.

Right let's not forget the myriad countries were the popular depiction of Britain and America is a land of upper class snobs and cowboys respectively.

[Divitaen]

I have a problem with the Japanese doing it to other cultures as well.

So, please, your comment about this:

He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

[The Carlisle]

My main problem with this is its basically "Try on a kimono!" with no good reason. Sure, if it was a an Asian history section and they were doing an exhibit on Japanese attire. I can get behind that. People will actually learn what a kimono is and the history behind it. But its a fucking painting of a Japanese geisha drawn by a french woman from 100 years ago. I mean... What? It just feels of "come check this out! We have a prop you can try on and show your friends! Please come... We need the funding...." Joke on museum attendance aside, there is really not much basis other than to attract people to certain exhibit with something cool.

French woman?

Japanese Geisha?

Ah, I confused the model for the artist. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Wallenburg]

Y'know, I hate racism, sexism, and stereotypes, but this is ludicrous. What next, you can't wear anything not of your own culture at all? It's called having fun and experimenting with new styles. My fist ends where your nose, not your feelings, begins.

[Divitaen]

They can do it, sure, but there's an element of degradation to reducing and bringing down an element of Japanese culture into a toy or tool of crass entertainment for Westerners. Of course we aren't stopping the Japanese from doing anything but the fact that this reduction is happening in the first place should be called out.

This isen't happening in Japan; it's happening in a place where the Kimono has never been as important a part of the local culture as it is in it's homeland. Like anything new or unusual (IE not being deeply ingrained in the local culture), it IS an oddity and has to go through the "oh, look at that!" stage before people decide weather to make it a full part of their culture (For instance, what happened when the Kimono was first introduced in Japan) or leave it as a fringe or temporary element (Like the pet rock). One can have something exist within society and not have it be a reverent part of the culture, and I'm not obligated to treat something as holy because anybody else does.

For example, I eat genetically modified wild rice. There is a Native American tribe in our region who thinks they have a sacred obligation to preserve the rice as it was. Must I only eat it in their traditional way and destroy all genetically modified rice within possible fertilizing distance of them just because their culture says THEY should act a certain way?

It shouldn't have to go through a "oh, look at that!" phase. And as many have mentioned before, people can go on to eat sushi, to learn and study the Japanese Shinto religion in universities, watch documentaries on Japan, you know, actually bother learning about Japanese culture and Japanese way of life. Instead you just try a kimono once, take a picture, and pat yourself on the back for such an incredible cultural immersion.

[New CaliforniaRepublic]

PC people really have gone literally insane. Trying on clothing featured in a famous painting its culturally appropriating anything. Nobody is pretending to be a geisha or a Japanese woman at all. They're pretending to be a Monet's wife posing for a painting.

[Macbeth]

So, please, your comment about this:

(Image)

He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

So what would your reaction be to a Japanese person partaking in the kimono/painting exhibit? For? Opposed?

[Divitaen]

[/spoiler]

He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

So what would your reaction be to a Japanese person partaking in the kimono/painting exhibit? For? Opposed?

What? Its his culture? He wouldn't be debasing his own culture. If he was trying on a qipao or cheongsam at an exhibit, then yes, I would be opposed.

[Dyakovo]

So, please, your comment about this:

He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

So, in other words, you fully support cultural appropriation of western culture.

[Divitaen]

No, that's cultural exchange. That's you genuinely using a part or element of another culture as its meant to be. Reducing a traditional Japanese garment, which was so honoured it could only be worn at tea ceremonies, weddings or other formal occasions, and turning it into a pretty, cute exotic dress for you to try on once, take a picture and laugh about how cute and pretty you look in it, is not the same as innocent cultural exchange.

The racist bastards. HOW DARE THEY...dress up in a dress. Umm...WHAT AN OUTRAGE!

What's next then? Trying on blackface as a costume? Allowing Western companies to control and take over Native American sweat lodges and claiming them as their own, as has been condemned by the United Nations? Or being like Katy Perry and pretending to be a geisha for a performance?

[Macbeth]

So what would your reaction be to a Japanese person partaking in the kimono/painting exhibit? For? Opposed?

What? Its his culture? He wouldn't be debasing his own culture. If he was trying on a qipao or cheongsam at an exhibit, then yes, I would be opposed.

This is what I object to. Unless you're of race/ethnicity X, you are FORBIDDEN from wearing something from their culture, even if it's rarely worn at say at tea ceremony, etc.

If you are for civil rights, you cannot object to the civil rights of someone wanting to try on a garment for leisure and experience.

[Divitaen]

He wears it day in day out. He goes out and into his office and workplace wearing this. This has literally become part of his life. If he wore it at a museum once, took pictures about it and blogged online, then yes, I would oppose it too. But as far as I can see, and as far as I know about Japanese society, many Japanese do wear Western business attire as typical corporate attire. It has become a part of their daily routine, and cannot be compared to what is happening in the museum.

So, in other words, you fully support cultural appropriation of western culture.

No, I made it quite clear if he only did it in a museum to "look cool" and "try what it would be like to mimic a Caucasian", they its wrong too.

[Divitaen]

What? Its his culture? He wouldn't be debasing his own culture. If he was trying on a qipao or cheongsam at an exhibit, then yes, I would be opposed.

This is what I object to. Unless you're of race/ethnicity X, you are FORBIDDEN from wearing something from their culture, even if it's rarely worn at say at tea ceremony, etc.

If you are for civil rights, you cannot object to the civil rights of someone wanting to try on a garment for leisure and experience.

I don't think its against civil rights at all. I am for the rights of minority communities to not have their cultural traditions debased and trivialised.

[Aculea]

No, that's cultural exchange. That's you genuinely using a part or element of another culture as its meant to be. Reducing a traditional Japanese garment, which was so honoured it could only be worn at tea ceremonies, weddings or other formal occasions, and turning it into a pretty, cute exotic dress for you to try on once, take a picture and laugh about how cute and pretty you look in it, is not the same as innocent cultural exchange.

So my native Japanese wife stuffs me into a Kimono at every available opportunity because of all the things that are wrong in that sentence. One, "was." The Kimono is still honored, two "only worn at formal occasions," these days kimono are formal wear, yes, but they are not worn only at formal occasions. When we went to visit Kyoto, we did all our touristing in kimono because it was cuter that way. Which brings us to three, implying it is not a pretty, cute dress. This is exactly what it is. Women wear it because it makes them cuter, and depending on preference, they'll wear it at the drop of a hat. My wife puts me in one because she thinks I'm cuter in it. One of our first big fights was whether I should wear kimono to our wedding, because she thought my tux was boring.

You've expressed one of two opinions here, either my only moral choice is to offend my wife to the point of divorce, because we would not be married if I had not agreed to wear a kimono, or I am excused from your draconian interpretation because my wife is some sort of unelected gatekeeper with the power to bless a kimono into suitability for a western man.

The game is working hard to teach me what happens to countries that install unelected gatekeepers over issues like dressing in the morning, and it's not pleasant.

[USS Monitor]

Why? We are all humans, are we not? Why shouldn't we share our cultures with each other. By this logic my marital arts and sword classes are cultural appropriation. What I I wear my cousin's russian army uniform? Is that also cultural appropriation? Or how about drinking tequila is that cultural appropriation of mexicans?

No, that's cultural exchange. That's you genuinely using a part or element of another culture as its meant to be. Reducing a traditional Japanese garment, which was so honoured it could only be worn at tea ceremonies, weddings or other formal occasions, and turning it into a pretty, cute exotic dress for you to try on once, take a picture and laugh about how cute and pretty you look in it, is not the same as innocent cultural exchange.

Except dressing up and having your picture taken is a common thing at museums, amusement parks, etc. I've seen ones where you can dress up as a cowboy or a Southern belle or something of the sort -- and nobody would bat an eye at a Japanese tourist going to one of those. This thing with a kimono is using it in the same way that we use other traditional garments.

[The Alexanderians]

Look at all this cultural appropriation!

[The Carlisle]

This isen't happening in Japan; it's happening in a place where the Kimono has never been as important a part of the local culture as it is in it's homeland. Like anything new or unusual (IE not being deeply ingrained in the local culture), it IS an oddity and has to go through the "oh, look at that!" stage before people decide weather to make it a full part of their culture (For instance, what happened when the Kimono was first introduced in Japan) or leave it as a fringe or temporary element (Like the pet rock). One can have something exist within society and not have it be a reverent part of the culture, and I'm not obligated to treat something as holy because anybody else does.

For example, I eat genetically modified wild rice. There is a Native American tribe in our region who thinks they have a sacred obligation to preserve the rice as it was. Must I only eat it in their traditional way and destroy all genetically modified rice within possible fertilizing distance of them just because their culture says THEY should act a certain way?

It shouldn't have to go through a "oh, look at that!" phase. And as many have mentioned before, people can go on to eat sushi, to learn and study the Japanese Shinto religion in universities, watch documentaries on Japan, you know, actually bother learning about Japanese culture and Japanese way of life. Instead you just try a kimono once, take a picture, and pat yourself on the back for such an incredible cultural immersion.

I like dirndl's. I wanna get one, know how to wear it, learn when to wear it, etc. That's cultural immersion. But if I go to museum and there was a set with a "try a dirndl on" in front of a painting of a woman wearing one painted by a guy from Paraguay, that's appropriation and screams of touristy bullshit.