Confederate Emblems to be Removed Nationwide.

[Pandeeria]

True. They fought for the right to own other people. Real honorable.

Fuck off, they fought because they wanted to defend their land from the federal government trying to take away their state rights and some of those rights was slavery. The majority did not fight for slavery.

They wanted to defend their right to own slaves against the Federal Government.

[Occupied Deutschland]

The issue of secession wasn't decided at the time. We know now that states can't secede, as we have the Civil War as an example of what happens. War.

Not really treasonous as they seceding was a grey area at the time.

According to the US Constitution, levying war against the United States is treason.

After seceding from the United States, it would be rather surprising for the US Constitution to apply.

This is why the Confederates wrote their own Constitution, one might note.

[Geilinor]

True. They fought for the right to own other people. Real honorable.

Fuck off, they fought because they wanted to defend their land from the federal government trying to take away their state rights and some of those rights was slavery. The majority did not fight for slavery.

The only rights they were fighting for were secession and slavery.

[Geilinor]

According to the US Constitution, levying war against the United States is treason.

After seceding from the United States, it would be rather surprising for the US Constitution to apply.

This is why the Confederates wrote their own Constitution, one might note.

Are you of the opinion that their secession was legitimate?

[New Baldonia]

The Confederate flag represents the struggle for the rights of the states to govern themselves, and not submit their sovereignty to the federal government. Slavery was a factor during the civil war, but it was simply the straw that broke the camels back, not the sole cause of the fight.
So no, the confederate flag should stay up, to remove it is dishonorable to those who fought and died for their state. The average Johnny Reb wasn't fighting because he wanted to own slaves, he was fighting because he didn't want northern troops to march on his town or home. And to suggest otherwise, regardless of your political leaning or thoughts on southern slavery, would be false outright.

Besides, those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.

"I deny the right of Congress to force a slaveholding State upon an unwilling people. I deny their right to force a free State upon an unwilling people. I deny their right to force a good thing upon a people who are unwilling to receive it. The great principle is the right of every community to judge and decide for itself, whether a thing is right or wrong, whether it would be good or evil for them to adopt it; and the right of free action, the right of free thought, the right of free judgment upon the question is dearer to every true American than any other under a free government."

- Democratic Senator Stephen A. Douglas, 1858

[Pandeeria]

The Confederate flag represents the struggle for the rights of the states to govern themselves, and not submit their sovereignty to the federal government. Slavery was a factor during the civil war, but it was simply the straw that broke the camels back, not the sole cause of the fight.
So no, the confederate flag should stay up, to remove it is dishonorable to those who fought and died for their state. The average Johnny Reb wasn't fighting because he wanted to own slaves, he was fighting because he didn't want northern troops to march on his town or home. And to suggest otherwise, regardless of your political leaning or thoughts on southern slavery, would be false outright.

Besides, those who do not remember the past, are doomed to repeat it.

Bullshit, it's easy to say "they were fighting to govern themselves" to make all Confederate sympathizers feel a bit more easy with themselves, but let's be real. The major right they were fighting for is the right to own slaves.

Which is disgusting. Anyone who believes in the right your own body should not be a Confederate sympathizer. Good riddance to the backwards, slaving, state that was the Confederate States of America.

[Wallenburg]

True. They fought for the right to own other people. Real honorable.

Fuck off, they fought because they wanted to defend their land from the federal government trying to take away their state rights and some of those rights was slavery. The majority did not fight for slavery.

Say again?

[Wanderjar]

It wasn't so democratic that it didn't allow a democratic decision to withdraw from that government, now was it?

Hmmm. More Northerners were against the idea then Southerners? Sounds like a democracy..

Doesn't matter. Popular sovereignty in a Federal Republic means that people in Florida shouldn't be affected by the popular whim of people from New York. For example: Florida voted to secede from the Union, people from New York shouldn't have the ability to counter-vote and say 'well we don't want you to!'

[Occupied Deutschland]

After seceding from the United States, it would be rather surprising for the US Constitution to apply.

This is why the Confederates wrote their own Constitution, one might note.

Are you of the opinion that their secession was legitimate?

*shrug* Irrelevant either way, historically speaking, for means of this conversation. They believed it to be.

[The 502nd SS]

Fuck off, they fought because they wanted to defend their land from the federal government trying to take away their state rights and some of those rights was slavery. The majority did not fight for slavery.

Say again?

I'm talking about the average soldier not the government

[The Black Forrest]

Are you of the opinion that their secession was legitimate?

*shrug* Irrelevant either way, historically speaking, for means of this conversation. They believed it to be.

Then what's your point?

[Dyakovo]

Yes, proudly fly the flag of treasonous, slaver scum.

The issue of secession wasn't decided at the time. We know now that states can't secede, as we have the Civil War as an example of what happens. War.

Not really treasonous as they seceding was a grey area at the time.

Confederate aligned forces attacked US military bases, that is the definition of treason according to Article 3 of the US Constitution. So, no, there is no gray area about whether or not they were treasonous scumbags.

[The New Sea Territory]

This shouldn't surprise or offend anyone.

[Wallenburg]

True. They fought for the right to own other people. Real honorable.

Fuck off, they fought because they wanted to defend their land from the federal government trying to take away their state rights and some of those rights was slavery. The majority did not fight for slavery.

Say again?

[Pandeeria]

Say again?

I'm talking about the average soldier not the government

The average soldier in the Wehrmacht didn't support Hitler, heck most probably didn't even know about the concentration camps.

Doesn't mean the cause they were fighting for is right.

[Geilinor]

Say again?

I'm talking about the average soldier not the government

Many average soldiers on both sides had no choice because of conscription during part of the war.

[Trollgaard]

The issue of secession wasn't decided at the time. We know now that states can't secede, as we have the Civil War as an example of what happens. War.

Not really treasonous as they seceding was a grey area at the time.

Confederate aligned forces attacked US military bases, that is the definition of treason according to Article 3 of the US Constitution. So, no, there is no gray area about whether or not they were treasonous scumbags.

They had seceded already. They were not bound to the constitution.

[Occupied Deutschland]

*shrug* Irrelevant either way, historically speaking, for means of this conversation. They believed it to be.

Then what's your point?

That the US Constitution did not apply to those states which seceded (thus making it difficult to hold them as levying war via the treason clause, though one could argue secession itself represented such) and that aforementioned secession was a standing point of contention in US law until declared illegal in Texas v. White only after the war.

[Pandeeria]

Then what's your point?

That the US Constitution did not apply to those states which seceded (thus making it difficult to hold them as levying war via the treason clause, though one could argue secession itself represented such) and that aforementioned secession was a standing point of contention in US law until declared illegal in Texas v. White only after the war.

Secessions is represent as such.

[The 502nd SS]

I'm talking about the average soldier not the government

Many average soldiers on both sides had no choice because of conscription during part of the war.

So they're victims like the average German soldier from WWII

[Dyakovo]

True. They fought for the right to own other people. Real honorable.

Fuck off, they fought because they wanted to defend their land from the federal government trying to take away their state rights and some of those rights was slavery. The majority did not fight for slavery.

Every single one of them touch for slavery. Protecting the eternal "right" to own black slaves was the raison d'être for the CSA.

[Geilinor]

Then what's your point?

That the US Constitution did not apply to those states which seceded (thus making it difficult to hold them as levying war via the treason clause, though one could argue secession itself represented such) and that aforementioned secession was a standing point of contention in US law until declared illegal in Texas v. White only after the war.

Under Texas v. White, the states never left the Union.

[The Romulan Republic]

It should not be removed, because 1st amendment,

The First Amendment says that the government cannot censor your speech. It does not obligate the government to endorse every idea or regime. If it did, the government would also have to have the flag of every nation and religion on its buildings. Even the bloody Swastika.

Here's a relevant legal case: www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015 ... s/2705915/

it is a major part of American history,

So are a lot of other unpleasant things. We can remember them, but we don't have to honour them.

and it does not actually resemble hate. A symbol resembles whatever someone interprets it as.

Not really. The flag represents its nation. A nation that fought for slavery and existed because some people thought rebellion was an appropriate response to losing an election. Apparently they felt democracy is only a good thing if you win.

I could see orange cupcakes as a symbol of hatred towards brown-haired people (like myself), but that does not mean that they should be banned.

See above.

Also, South Carolina was the first to secede from the union. It is an important part of the state's history. I would also like to argue, being from North Carolina, that most people in both Carolinas of both races do not want the flag removed.

Again, historical does not mean it should be honoured. Nazism is a big part of Germany's history. The Taliban is a big part of Afghanistan's history. Stalin is a big part of Russia's history. Are those things that should be honoured?

Every country has its sins. They should be remembered, but not idolized.

And you admit that you don't have any evidence of what most people in the Carolinas think about this.

I have no poll evidence or anything for that last point, only what people I've talked to there have said to me.

Perhaps the people you associate with tend to be like-minded and that affects the results?

Just as a resource for Civil War history from a Southerner's point of view, a bit different from the US public school teaching, read "Everything You Were Taught About the Civil War Was Wrong: Just Ask A Southerner!" by Lochlainn Seabrook. It's a great book with lots of citations.

I know about the southern Confederate apologist view. All that "state's rights" nonsense. But the Confederacy represented a lot of other things:

The Confederacy supported slavery. It was integral to the Confederacy. See here: teachingamericanhistory.org/library/document/cornerstone-speech/

I particularly advise you to read paragraphs nine and ten of the Cornerstone Speech.

The Confederacy started the war at Fort Sumter.

The Confederacy existed because its founders had no respect for democracy if it meant they lost an election.

It was a despicable regime.

Just as a quick note, I am not racist. I support confederate ideals like state's rights, and I'm from the South, but I do not believe racism to be the reason for secession (see book above), and I personally oppose any form of racism.

Thank you for reading.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on the racism thing, but you should be honest enough to admit that the Confederacy was a fundamentally racist and undemocratic regime and existed to support slavery.

[Infected Mushroom]

Fuck off, they fought because they wanted to defend their land from the federal government trying to take away their state rights and some of those rights was slavery. The majority did not fight for slavery.

Every single one of them touch for slavery. Protecting the eternal "right" to own black slaves was the raison d'être for the CSA.

States' Rights. Slavery is not the main point.

[Occupied Deutschland]

That the US Constitution did not apply to those states which seceded (thus making it difficult to hold them as levying war via the treason clause, though one could argue secession itself represented such) and that aforementioned secession was a standing point of contention in US law until declared illegal in Texas v. White only after the war.

Under Texas v. White, the states never left the Union.

Yes, legal fictions were very handy for the case.
Declarations of such did not make those legal fictions into actual historical occurrences, though.