Ferguson Megathread

[Iron Fist Sovereignty]

Why? It's what they are. I could have a little more respect for them if they didn't run around murdering people and then threatening to arrest the civilians that try to protect people and property from looters, especially when the looters and rioters are only there because the cops run around murdering people.

Run around murdering people? You'd think there'd be alot more than 123 blacks shot in a year (out of a population of 40-something million) if they were that trigger happy. Why haven't they started mowing down the protestors either?

Finally, someone with respect for law enforcement. I fucking hate people who try to say that police officers are "armed thugs" and murderers - neither are true.

[Quintium]

The government does not have the monopoly of violence itself. It has just been given the privilege of holding the monopoly of violence for the citizens on the condition that it would use that monopoly of violence to defend the rights and properties of citizens. If the government fails to do so and lets criminals run rampant without taking them down, then by default the monopoly of violence should revert to the citizens themselves and should be used against anyone who is reasonably deemed a threat to people's rights and properties. If the government can't arrest them, and they pose a threat to someone's store or house or family, then that person should be able to arm himself, warn the criminals, and kill them if they don't heed his warning.

tl;dr: if the government can't defend you, then you should have the right to defend yourself and your property against criminals by any means necessary.

[Condunum]

Yeah, fuck defending innocent people! Woooo, go looters!

Whatever you wanna think, sweetie.

That is what you're saying. The police aren't protecting businesses like they should be, so private citizens did it for them (the businesses).

[Galloism]

Hmm, it seems like the contention is that the ordinance in question only refers to those employed as security officers - not volunteers.

Anyway - they're back up on rooftops and legal notice has been sent to the chief of police in Ferguson laying out their arguments.


http://www.scribd.com/doc/249001595/Letter-for-Oath-Keepers-to-Chief#force_seo

[MERIZoC]

Whatever you wanna think, sweetie.

That is what you're saying. The police aren't protecting businesses like they should be, so private citizens did it for them (the businesses).

You have a right to use violence to protect yourself and your property. Not someone else's.

[Galloism]

That is what you're saying. The police aren't protecting businesses like they should be, so private citizens did it for them (the businesses).

You have a right to use violence to protect yourself and your property. Not someone else's.

You sure about that?

[Condunum]

That is what you're saying. The police aren't protecting businesses like they should be, so private citizens did it for them (the businesses).

You have a right to use violence to protect yourself and your property. Not someone else's.

And if the people are happier with you there than gone, you have a moral right to continue protecting those businesses and apartments. I don't care if some obscure law says this is legally wrong, they're doing a job that needed doing and the police failed to do.

[Quintium]

You have a right to use violence to protect yourself and your property. Not someone else's.

Why should we make this distinction? I believe citizens hold the monopoly on violence, and are able to award it to whoever is capable of defending them and their properties if the government's protection fails. I have absolutely no problem with a citizen saying "well, the government has failed me completely, and so I will award the monopoly on the exertion of violence on my behalf to a group of people who have banded together to protect me". A government should only have the right to rule if it has earned that right, and if it hasn't earned that right then anyone should be able to form a group to carry out the government's tasks instead. You can't expect a high degree of loyalty from citizens to a dysfunctional government.

[Galloism]

You have a right to use violence to protect yourself and your property. Not someone else's.

Why should we make this distinction? I believe citizens hold the monopoly on violence, and are able to award it to whoever is capable of defending them and their properties if the government's protection fails. I have absolutely no problem with a citizen saying "well, the government has failed me completely, and so I will award the monopoly on the exertion of violence on my behalf to a group of people who have banded together to protect me". A government should only have the right to rule if it has earned that right, and if it hasn't earned that right then anyone should be able to form a group to carry out the government's tasks instead. You can't expect a high degree of loyalty from citizens to a dysfunctional government.

It's wrong anyway, under Missouri law:

Missouri Revised Statutes (M.R.S.)

Chapter 563. Defense of Justification

563.041. Use of physical force in defense of property.

1. A person may, subject to the limitations of subsection 2, use physical force upon another person when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes it necessary to prevent what he or she reasonably believes to be the commission or attempted commission by such person of stealing, property damage or tampering in any degree.

2. A person may use deadly force under circumstances described in subsection 1 only when such use of deadly force is authorized under other sections of this chapter.

3. The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of physical restraint as protective force provided that the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the restraint as soon as it is reasonable to do so.

4. The defendant shall have the burden of injecting the issue of justification under this section.

http://lawofselfdefense.com/statute/mo- ... -property/

It doesn't say anything about it having to be YOUR property.

[Janshah]

Armed group of unlicenced vigilantes offers "protection" for private businesses. Remindsa me offa something, capisc' ?

Oh.. but.. that's..

(but actually, I think these guys may be more trouble than that, because there is more ideology involved here rather than an, um, reasonable business offer of an upstanding concerned citizen.)

[The Cobalt Sky]

It's like how blacks are supposed to be inherently lazy and shiftless unless they're slaves, in which case they suddenly become one of the hardest working people on the planet. *nod nod*

It's almost like you can only spout off strawman generalizations without contributing any real thing to the argument at all. The belief that the poor don't work hard enough is sadly true in my experience. My dad is a deadbeat who's given up on looking for a job, while my mom works her hands to the bone, just earning herself a VP position. Your classifications based on race do nothing and mean absolutely nothing. It's the person's work ethic in the end, and the color of your skin obviously doesn't matter much, because there are plenty of white people who are also poor.

What? Then why is the wealth gap growing?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ealth-gap/

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Well, yes. However, we have a chance to discuss the actual topics at play, the ones being stated by the majority of protesters. We don't have to allow ourselves to be distracted by vandals and looters.

But the media want us to remain distracted.

And?

[Alien Space Bats]

No wonder that you are progressive as usually such people never went to college.

Most polling organizations would disagree with you: The one remaining group among white voters that consistently votes Democratic are people with post-graduate degrees. In the recent mid-term election, this group broke 54-46 in favor of the Democrats, while high-school graduates who had either not yet gone to or not yet completed college broke 54-46 in favor of Republicans.

Now, it is true that among those who have NEVER gone to college, Democrats hold a narrow lead (51-49) in the last election. That is probably due more to socioeconomic factors than education, however. Republicans do best among people with SOME college education (up to and including a degree), but no FURTHER education beyond their undergraduate studies.

IOW, Republicans do best among people with just enough education to be professionally successful on an individual basis, but not quite enough to really understand how the world actually works.

The most progressive people in America are those who lack the education to effectively compete in today's world, and who therefore see firsthand just how destructive social forces can be in our society, and those with enough education to truly understand what's happening around them, and therefore grasp that we don't actually have to be live like this, if we could only must the will to make things better.

[Dyakovo]

If I were to accuse you of trolling--which I am most emphatically not doing--it would have less to do with simple disagreement, and more to do with your continuous statements of inflammatory and frankly ludicrous viewpoints that seem to have no purpose but to provoke anger or outrage.

Of course, you assume I'm just trying to provoke outrage and be inflammatory. If that were the case, I would have been banned a long time ago.

And you have been... Multiple times... And have already had two nations deleted due to your trolling...

[Kelinfort]

Well, yes. However, we have a chance to discuss the actual topics at play, the ones being stated by the majority of protesters. We don't have to allow ourselves to be distracted by vandals and looters.

But the media want us to remain distracted.

The solution is clear: loot the media.

[Anglo-California]

Of course, you assume I'm just trying to provoke outrage and be inflammatory. If that were the case, I would have been banned a long time ago.

And you have been... Multiple times... And have already had two nations deleted due to your trolling...

Twice, for unrelated reasons. The first time had to do with an issue with a puppet nation and the second time with transgenders.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about (but you laughably assume that you actually do) and you come to the most ridiculous conclusions.

[The Cobalt Sky]

But the media want us to remain distracted.

The solution is clear: loot the media.

MTV is mine. I claim it. Let's just get that right out of the way.

[New Hampshire Republic]

Wow...more media sensationalizing of something stupid and trivial to divide us all.

[Pragia]

It's almost like you can only spout off strawman generalizations without contributing any real thing to the argument at all. The belief that the poor don't work hard enough is sadly true in my experience. My dad is a deadbeat who's given up on looking for a job, while my mom works her hands to the bone, just earning herself a VP position. Your classifications based on race do nothing and mean absolutely nothing. It's the person's work ethic in the end, and the color of your skin obviously doesn't matter much, because there are plenty of white people who are also poor.

What? Then why is the wealth gap growing?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ealth-gap/

Because greedy-ass corporations keep throwing jobs out of the country. If there aren't enough jobs, then there are less people able to earn a living. If people don't have jobs, they don't get money, hence growing gap. Doesn't help that moving jobs away allows the rich to profit even more. If there were enough open jobs here, we probably would not have nearly as bad a gap.

[Informationland]

I hope things settle down soon. the police should use force to stop those rioting thugs if necessary.

[Informationland]

Is this still on? The protestors should now go home and prepare for work, although I doubt half of them are even employed.

they aren't.

[Planita]

The solution is clear: loot the media.

MTV is mine. I claim it. Let's just get that right out of the way.

I get FOX

[New Hampshire Republic]

MTV is mine. I claim it. Let's just get that right out of the way.

I get FOX

I get MSNBC.

[Maineiacs]

MTV is mine. I claim it. Let's just get that right out of the way.

I get FOX

Good. Maybe you could do something more useful with it than its current state; like turning it into The Test-Pattern Channel.

[The Cobalt Sky]

What? Then why is the wealth gap growing?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... ealth-gap/

Because greedy-ass corporations keep throwing jobs out of the country. If there aren't enough jobs, then there are less people able to earn a living. If people don't have jobs, they don't get money, hence growing gap. Doesn't help that moving jobs away allows the rich to profit even more. If there were enough open jobs here, we probably would not have nearly as bad a gap.

The gap is also racial. I agree that the rich are getting richer, and that it's a problem, but racism is still endemic.
http://datatools.metrotrends.org/charts ... 3-2010.jpg