Don't Like It? Why Not Just Leave?

[Antilon]

Alright then, discount that one. But look at the others and tell me that these are isolated incidents.

Or you could just be immature and not own up.

Are you calling him immature? All I've gotten from your posts is "Blah blah hate America blah blah generic anti-American hate speech blah blah girlfriend."

Please quote me exactly on where I spew this "generic anti-American hate speech."

[The Shrailleeni Empire]

So using pepper spray on a crowd that won't disperse now is police brutality?

Wow, I think I'm done here.

Alright then, discount that one. But look at the others and tell me that these are isolated incidents.

Or you could just be immature and not own up.

Just to address the topic at hand, not necessarily this quote, I will not be leaving because I love the land that I grew up in and I honestly want to see her people prosper and her problems resolved. I would frankly accuse other liberals and leftists who feel like they want to leave the country of abandoning their own ideals, which are obviously not important enough to them to fight for. In addition, we aren't exactly living in a rightest reactionary dictatorship. All things considered, it's pretty nice in the U.S.A. I've been advocating politics with a Marxist influence for years and I haven't been black-bagged, nor do I fear being so. Unless things got improbably worse impossibly fast, I don't believe that we have enough to worry about to merit fleeing the country.

[Dyakovo]

Should've read more closely, I thought they were separate incidents. Let me pull up some more in a bit (a lot of reading).

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jan20 ... -j03.shtml ¹
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/nov ... -protests/ ²
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/2 ... 33159.html ³
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... 6217573952 ⁴
http://www.mlive.com/news/us-world/inde ... n_occ.html ⁵
http://www.kpax.com/news/montana-hs-gra ... t-protest/ ⁶
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/226438/ ... -spray.htm ⁷

1: Not police brutality.
2: Again, not police brutality.
3: No compelling evidence of police brutality.
4: Not police brutality.
5: Not police brutality.
6: Is police brutality.
7: Is police brutality.

Two out of seven... Still not seeing a trend here...
Being injured by police efforts to break up a demonstration does not automatically equal police brutality.

[The Black Plains]

Are you calling him immature? All I've gotten from your posts is "Blah blah hate America blah blah generic anti-American hate speech blah blah girlfriend."

Please quote me exactly on where I spew this "generic anti-American hate speech."

Rigged two-party system. That's a generic anti-American bit that you can buy at any 7/11.

[Dyakovo]

Are you calling him immature? All I've gotten from your posts is "Blah blah hate America blah blah generic anti-American hate speech blah blah girlfriend."

Please quote me exactly on where I spew this "generic anti-American hate speech."

I think TBP is confusing you and Radiatia...

[Antilon]

Alright then, discount that one. But look at the others and tell me that these are isolated incidents.

Or you could just be immature and not own up.

Just to address the topic at hand, not necessarily this quote, I will not be leaving because I love the land that I grew up in and I honestly want to see her people prosper and her problems resolved. I would frankly accuse other liberals and leftists who feel like they want to leave the country of abandoning their own ideals, which are obviously not important enough to them to fight for.

And what ideals would I be abandoning?

[Socialdemokraterne]

Just going to re-post this because it got the last spot on a previous page and might be overlooked, and I really think that the OP should read it. I know it's long, but I've said a lot of important things here.

I've long since given up at banging my head against the wall trying to establish a Social Democratic Party which endorses establishment of the Nordic model in the US with any sort of relevance. The political reality of the US is that we are a two-party state, that's the nature of the electoral system we use. And the Left party here in the US has absolutely no intention of ever enacting the Nordic model. My ideas are never going to be realized in full here. I've accepted that, I've made peace with it, and I'll simply get as much as I can through. Such is the nature of democratic governance, you don't usually get what you want, only a mishmash of your ideas and someone else's.

Does that mean I have to (or even should) leave? Not really. I can still be a productive member of society here. There isn't much political representation of Social Democrats, but that needn't be the only factor to consider. There are upsides to living in the US. Though we do not have the extensive social safety nets I feel we should and a culture of consumption that doesn't match my ideals, there is by virtue of these things immense economic freedom. In Nordic Social Democracies you tend to have everyone settle around the middle class, you don't have much chance of becoming obscenely wealthy in Finland or Denmark. It can be done, it's just unlikely and no one's going to pat you on the back for being rich. There's also an upside if you happen to be a gun-lover: the USA is about the only place on Earth that guns are as freely passed around and as frequently used as they are without the area being a warzone of some kind. The point is, the USA may not be as nice a place to live for me from an ideological standpoint, but it certainly offers quite a few freedoms I wouldn't have in places with politics closer to my ideals in exchange. Don't fall into the illusion that the USA is all bad and the Nordic region is some kind of paradise: you'll be making tradeoffs and gaining things if you go in either direction.

And let's face it, the reality is that immigration to the Nordic region isn't as easy as packing a suitcase and moving. There are a lot of factors that might make Scandinavia and Fennoscandia a bad fit for everyday life in spite of their stunning political records and marvelous numbers regarding standard of living measurements.

*It's prohibitively expensive to move to and live in these countries, and you have to live in them for the majority of the year for several years in order to qualify for citizenship in at least the two that I've looked at (Finland and Denmark).
*These countries also have the cultural tendency to be wary of strangers and to stick to closely established social networks, so trying to associate with people outside of areas with a lot of tourism (Helsinki, Copenhagen) will prove difficult at first. Given that loneliness is one of the major complaints for immigrants, this is a big deal.
*Finnish language proficiency is required for citizenship, and Suomi just happens to be considered the most difficult of all European languages (though frankly I'm not having that hard a time learning it). Denmark has the same requirement for Dansk, though admittedly Dansk is really, really easy to learn if you speak English. Think of it as a slightly more difficult version of German, you'll have the gist.
*Next, you've got to be able to deal with the weather. The reality is that the Nordic region is incredibly far to the north, to the point that whole segments of Norway and Finland enter the Arctic Circle and begin to experience polar day and polar night. Nordic summers are pretty warm but not hot (the Finnish heat record doesn't even break 100 Fahrenheit), but the winters are very cold. There's a reason saunas are so damn popular, I expect.
*Bear in mind that Scandinavia and Fennoscandia are currently experiencing a massive influx of 3rd world immigrants (a lot of Somalians are working their way up to Finland), and that this area has a lot of people pissed off about this. Nationalism has traditionally run fairly high in the Nordic region, but it's especially high right now. If you don't want any trouble, you'd better be all of these: White, Christian, from a Western country, educated, and willing/able to learn the local language with a fair amount of proficiency. The more of those you have missing, the harder it will be for you, and God help you if you're a Muslim. Translation? I'D be fine if I wanted to move to somewhere like Finland. A lot of other people wouldn't.

[Antilon]

1: Not police brutality.
2: Again, not police brutality.
3: No compelling evidence of police brutality.
4: Not police brutality.
5: Not police brutality.
6: Is police brutality.
7: Is police brutality.

Two out of seven... Still not seeing a trend here...
Being injured by police efforts to break up a demonstration does not automatically equal police brutality.

And on what grounds do you base these judgements?

Simply saying whether something is or is not is hardly convincing.

Please quote me exactly on where I spew this "generic anti-American hate speech."

Rigged two-party system. That's a generic anti-American bit that you can buy at any 7/11.

Criticizing political systems equates to hate speech?

areyouserious.jpg

[The Black Plains]

Please quote me exactly on where I spew this "generic anti-American hate speech."

I think TBP is confusing you and Radiatia...

That might be the case.

[The Black Plains]

1: Not police brutality.
2: Again, not police brutality.
3: No compelling evidence of police brutality.
4: Not police brutality.
5: Not police brutality.
6: Is police brutality.
7: Is police brutality.

Two out of seven... Still not seeing a trend here...
Being injured by police efforts to break up a demonstration does not automatically equal police brutality.

And on what grounds do you base judge these as?

Rigged two-party system. That's a generic anti-American bit that you can buy at any 7/11.

Criticizing political systems equates to hate speech?

areyouserious.jpg

No, that was just generic anti-American speech. Not really hateful I guess. But you do clearly dislike america. "Dislike speech" doesn't have the same ring.

[Dyakovo]

1: Not police brutality.
2: Again, not police brutality.
3: No compelling evidence of police brutality.
4: Not police brutality.
5: Not police brutality.
6: Is police brutality.
7: Is police brutality.

Two out of seven... Still not seeing a trend here...
Being injured by police efforts to break up a demonstration does not automatically equal police brutality.

And on what grounds do you base judge these as?

In the first five there is no indication that the police did more than was necessary to break up the demonstrations, in the last two there was. Seemed pretty simple and straightforward to me...

[The Black Plains]

And on what grounds do you base judge these as?

In the first five there is no indication that the police did more than was necessary to break up the demonstrations, in the last two there was. Seemed pretty simple and straightforward to me...

I think the OP has a tough time understanding that if you are committing a crime and refuse to stop, then police are justified in making you stop.

[The Shrailleeni Empire]

Just to address the topic at hand, not necessarily this quote, I will not be leaving because I love the land that I grew up in and I honestly want to see her people prosper and her problems resolved. I would frankly accuse other liberals and leftists who feel like they want to leave the country of abandoning their own ideals, which are obviously not important enough to them to fight for.

And what ideals would I be abandoning?

If you are a Marxist, Marxism. If you are a "liberal," to borrow the common term, than the idea that there are suffering people who need assitance and aren't getting any. Or the idea that those with power should try to help the oppressed. Or the idea that the lives of ordinary people can be made better, longer, and happier if the ruling class would give up a little bit of their unsurpassable wealth and influence. Simply moving to a country were everyone already shares your views would be as useless as preaching to the choir. If you are honestly liberal or Marxist, than your time and energy is better spent here, where they can be put to good use instead of echoing around.

[Dyakovo]

In the first five there is no indication that the police did more than was necessary to break up the demonstrations, in the last two there was. Seemed pretty simple and straightforward to me...

I think the OP has a tough time understanding that if you are committing a crime and refuse to stop, then police are justified in making you stop.

That's my thought as well... He also seems to be conflating two separate issues: 1-Should the police have broken up the demonstrations and 2-Did the police use excessive force in breaking up the demonstrations.
Even if the answer to #1 is not, that does not necessarily mean that the answer to #2 is yes.


Edit: I think it might be a sign of the apocalypse the we are agreeing...

[Kirrig]

In the first five there is no indication that the police did more than was necessary to break up the demonstrations, in the last two there was. Seemed pretty simple and straightforward to me...

I think the OP has a tough time understanding that if you are committing a crime and refuse to stop, then police are justified in making you stop.

To an extent, when they break out the fire hoses things have gone too far. Not that I''m saying they did, in any of these cases (I haven't read the articles, it's just an example).

[Dyakovo]

I think the OP has a tough time understanding that if you are committing a crime and refuse to stop, then police are justified in making you stop.

To an extent, when they break out the fire hoses things have gone too far. Not that I''m saying they did, in any of these cases (I haven't read the articles, it's just an example).

They didn't.... They used pepper spray, tear gas, and rubber bullets. All reasonable methods for breaking up a crowd that refuses to disperse.

[Antilon]

Just going to re-post this because it got the last spot on a previous page and might be overlooked, and I really think that the OP should read it. I know it's long, but I've said a lot of important things here.

I've long since given up at banging my head against the wall trying to establish a Social Democratic Party which endorses establishment of the Nordic model in the US with any sort of relevance. The political reality of the US is that we are a two-party state, that's the nature of the electoral system we use. And the Left party here in the US has absolutely no intention of ever enacting the Nordic model. My ideas are never going to be realized in full here. I've accepted that, I've made peace with it, and I'll simply get as much as I can through. Such is the nature of democratic governance, you don't usually get what you want, only a mishmash of your ideas and someone else's.

And I have also come to terms with that reality.

Does that mean I have to (or even should) leave? Not really. I can still be a productive member of society here. There isn't much political representation of Social Democrats, but that needn't be the only factor to consider. There are upsides to living in the US. Though we do not have the extensive social safety nets I feel we should and a culture of consumption that doesn't match my ideals, there is by virtue of these things immense economic freedom. In Nordic Social Democracies you tend to have everyone settle around the middle class, you don't have much chance of becoming obscenely wealthy in Finland or Denmark. It can be done, it's just unlikely and no one's going to pat you on the back for being rich. There's also an upside if you happen to be a gun-lover: the USA is about the only place on Earth that guns are as freely passed around and as frequently used as they are without the area being a warzone of some kind. The point is, the USA may not be as nice a place to live for me from an ideological standpoint, but it certainly offers quite a few freedoms I wouldn't have in places with politics closer to my ideals in exchange. Don't fall into the illusion that the USA is all bad and the Nordic region is some kind of paradise: you'll be making tradeoffs and gaining things if you go in either direction.

I don't think the US is all bad. I simply just don't think I belong there, and possibly that I'm not wanted. I don't have grandiose ambitions of earning millions and I don't particularly care about firearms. There's really nothing for me here.

And let's face it, the reality is that immigration to the Nordic region isn't as easy as packing a suitcase and moving. There are a lot of factors that might make Scandinavia and Fennoscandia a bad fit for everyday life in spite of their stunning political records and marvelous numbers regarding standard of living measurements.

*It's prohibitively expensive to move to and live in these countries, and you have to live in them for the majority of the year for several years in order to qualify for citizenship in at least the two that I've looked at (Finland and Denmark).
*These countries also have the cultural tendency to be wary of strangers and to stick to closely established social networks, so trying to associate with people outside of areas with a lot of tourism (Helsinki, Copenhagen) will prove difficult at first. Given that loneliness is one of the major complaints for immigrants, this is a big deal.
*Finnish language proficiency is required for citizenship, and Suomi just happens to be considered the most difficult of all European languages (though frankly I'm not having that hard a time learning it). Denmark has the same requirement for Dansk, though admittedly Dansk is really, really easy to learn if you speak English. Think of it as a slightly more difficult version of German, you'll have the gist.
*Next, you've got to be able to deal with the weather. The reality is that the Nordic region is incredibly far to the north, to the point that whole segments of Norway and Finland enter the Arctic Circle and begin to experience polar day and polar night. Nordic summers are pretty warm but not hot (the Finnish heat record doesn't even break 100 Fahrenheit), but the winters are very cold. There's a reason saunas are so damn popular, I expect.
*Bear in mind that Scandinavia and Fennoscandia are currently experiencing a massive influx of 3rd world immigrants (a lot of Somalians are working their way up to Finland), and that this area has a lot of people pissed off about this. Nationalism has traditionally run fairly high in the Nordic region, but it's especially high right now. If you don't want any trouble, you'd better be all of these: White, Christian, from a Western country, educated, and willing/able to learn the local language with a fair amount of proficiency. The more of those you have missing, the harder it will be for you, and God help you if you're a Muslim. Translation? I'D be fine if I wanted to move to somewhere like Finland. A lot of other people wouldn't.

I said "maybe" on Norway or Sweden. The truth is, I could see myself wandering from country to country, and I'm pretty good at languages (learning Japanese and Chinese now, Italian on the side) so I could work as a translator.

[Kirrig]

To an extent, when they break out the fire hoses things have gone too far. Not that I''m saying they did, in any of these cases (I haven't read the articles, it's just an example).

They didn't.... They used pepper spray, tear gas, and rubber bullets. All reasonable methods for breaking up a crowd that refuses to disperse.

I disagree. Batons and the threat of more batons is more effective.

[Soviet Russia Republic]

To an extent, when they break out the fire hoses things have gone too far. Not that I''m saying they did, in any of these cases (I haven't read the articles, it's just an example).

They didn't.... They used pepper spray, tear gas, and rubber bullets. All reasonable methods for breaking up a crowd that refuses to disperse.

But they can kill someone...

[Socialdemokraterne]

If you are a Marxist, Marxism. If you are a "liberal," to borrow the common term, than the idea that there are suffering people who need assitance and aren't getting any. Or the idea that those with power should try to help the oppressed. Or the idea that the lives of ordinary people can be made better, longer, and happier if the ruling class would give up a little bit of their unsurpassable wealth and influence. Simply moving to a country were everyone already shares your views would be as useless as preaching to the choir. If you are honestly liberal or Marxist, than your time and energy is better spent here, where they can be put to good use instead of echoing around.

I don't expect that shifting to Nordic Social Democracy in the USA would occur over the span of a single generation, or even a few. It's cold comfort to know that your ideal will be realized at some point, but you'll probably be dead by then. I'll go ahead and put the time in anyway because I genuinely would like to see the US as a Social Democracy, but I'm not foolish enough to get my hopes up and believe that I'll ever see such a thing. You need only understand the median voter theorum to realize that I'd have to shift the entire sociopolitical climate of the USA to the left in order to even attempt to do what you say constitutes ideological loyalty. Bit of a tall order.

[Dyakovo]

They didn't.... They used pepper spray, tear gas, and rubber bullets. All reasonable methods for breaking up a crowd that refuses to disperse.

I disagree. Batons and the threat of more batons is more effective.

Except it isn't. Also, using batons on the people is much more likely to result in injuries than any of the methods I mentioned.

[Dyakovo]

They didn't.... They used pepper spray, tear gas, and rubber bullets. All reasonable methods for breaking up a crowd that refuses to disperse.

But they can kill someone...

Can, but are extremely unlikely to.

[Kirrig]

I disagree. Batons and the threat of more batons is more effective.

Except it isn't. Also, using batons on the people is much more likely to result in injuries than any of the methods I mentioned.

Good. That is a widespread fact. Therefore the people will stop rioting or whatever they are doing.

Unless they aren't as intelligent as I give them credit for.

[Mike the Progressive]

I totally agree. Get the hell out of my country.

[Dyakovo]

Except it isn't. Also, using batons on the people is much more likely to result in injuries than any of the methods I mentioned.

Good. That is a widespread fact. Therefore the people will stop rioting or whatever they are doing.

Reality indicates otherwise.

Unless they aren't as intelligent as I give them credit for.

We have a winner!