Don't Like It? Why Not Just Leave?

[Risottia]

Rather I 've wondered why do people who are significantly at odds with their nation in whatever terms stay, often to work fruitlessly for a change that will never come (i.e. Communist Party USA)? Why not just leave and go to a nation that you identify more with?

Because maybe they identify with that country. They merely want to change its political system.

Oh I forgot: commie = unAmerican. Commies can't love their country. Did I mention they eat babies?

[Antilon]

I can't stand America, but I lived there for 6 months to be with my girlfriend who is from there.

That's nice. What does that have to do with the topic?

Because he stated a reason for staying there in spite of not liking it?

How is that not relevant?

[Dyakovo]

That's nice. What does that have to do with the topic?

Because he stated a reason for not staying there in spite of not liking it?

How is that not relevant?

Because it has nothing to do with moving somewhere other than your home country for the sake of finding a place that matches your political ideals... You know, the topic of the thread that you made...

[Ifreann]

Rather I 've wondered why do people who are significantly at odds with their nation in whatever terms stay, often to work fruitlessly for a change that will never come (i.e. Communist Party USA)? Why not just leave and go to a nation that you identify more with?

Because maybe they identify with that country. They merely want to change its political system.

Oh I forgot: commie = unAmerican. Commies can't love their country. Did I mention they eat babies?

And who can blame them? Babies are delicious.

[Risottia]

Because maybe they identify with that country. They merely want to change its political system.

Oh I forgot: commie = unAmerican. Commies can't love their country. Did I mention they eat babies?

And who can blame them? Babies are delicious.

As always, it all depends on how you cook them.

[Kirrig]

Because maybe they identify with that country. They merely want to change its political system.

Oh I forgot: commie = unAmerican. Commies can't love their country. Did I mention they eat babies?

And who can blame them? Babies are delicious.

Jelly babies, yes. Real ones, not so much. If people regularly ate babies, I'd want to move. Thankfully, we only have horrific child abuse stats here and canabilism isn't a problem.

[Kirrig]

Of course the ones that do move generally aren't so popular with the locals.

[NyxNyke]

Treated like shit?

Really?

I find this amusing, please, elaborate.

Don't play stupid. You know that the US gov has a history of persecuting leftists.

I don't see how as any patriotism or show of religion other than Islam is prohibited in many school systems. Tea party activist are branded raciest. Speakers who bring out inconvenient facts rather than make up their own are kept off collage campus or if allowed by the college to speak are disrupted by left wing activist. After Joseph McCarthy (who was right all but once) the takeover by the left was complete. What we are seeing now is the internal conflict between various factions like the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks.

[The Black Plains]

The largest plurality in the Norway parliament is libertarian, just so you know. It takes a coalition of basically every other party to maintain a government. And that party is hardcore about American values. From what I gathered from the National Review article I read on the subject, the leader of said party has several busts and paintings of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher in his office. They also eat Israeli potatoes to piss off the country's progressives who are all like "Israel bad blaaaargh!".

[The Black Plains]

Don't play stupid. You know that the US gov has a history of persecuting leftists.

I don't see how as any patriotism or show of religion other than Islam is prohibited in many school systems. Tea party activist are branded raciest. Speakers who bring out inconvenient facts rather than make up their own are kept off collage campus or if allowed by the college to speak are disrupted by left wing activist. After Joseph McCarthy (who was right all but once) the takeover by the left was complete. What we are seeing now is the internal conflict between various factions like the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks.

Was that one time he was wrong when he accused the entire goddamn military of being communist?

[Antilon]

It is a stretch to call 3 incidents a trend... (The last 3 articles are all about the same incident)

Should've read more closely, I thought they were separate incidents. Let me pull up some more in a bit (a lot of reading).

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jan20 ... -j03.shtml
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/nov ... -protests/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/2 ... 33159.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... 6217573952
http://www.mlive.com/news/us-world/inde ... n_occ.html
http://www.kpax.com/news/montana-hs-gra ... t-protest/
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/226438/ ... -spray.htm

[NyxNyke]

I don't see how as any patriotism or show of religion other than Islam is prohibited in many school systems. Tea party activist are branded raciest. Speakers who bring out inconvenient facts rather than make up their own are kept off collage campus or if allowed by the college to speak are disrupted by left wing activist. After Joseph McCarthy (who was right all but once) the takeover by the left was complete. What we are seeing now is the internal conflict between various factions like the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks.

Was that one time he was wrong when he accused the entire goddamn military of being communist?

No he was right about that. I no longer have the source for that it was posted after the fall of soviet union.

[Forster Keys]

Don't play stupid. You know that the US gov has a history of persecuting leftists.

I don't see how as any patriotism or show of religion other than Islam is prohibited in many school systems. Tea party activist are branded raciest. Speakers who bring out inconvenient facts rather than make up their own are kept off collage campus or if allowed by the college to speak are disrupted by left wing activist. After Joseph McCarthy (who was right all but once) the takeover by the left was complete. What we are seeing now is the internal conflict between various factions like the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks.

He was wrong a fuckload of times. That what happens when you go around accusing everyone from actors to high ranking Army and white house officials of being closet reds.

[The Black Plains]

Was that one time he was wrong when he accused the entire goddamn military of being communist?

No he was right about that. I no longer have the source for that it was posted after the fall of soviet union.

Riiiiiiiight.

[Conserative Morality]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jan20 ... -j03.shtml

So using pepper spray on a crowd that won't disperse now is police brutality?

Wow, I think I'm done here.

[Antilon]

Because he stated a reason for not staying there in spite of not liking it?

How is that not relevant?

Because it has nothing to do with moving somewhere other than your home country for the sake of finding a place that matches your political ideals... You know, the topic of the thread that you made...

Personally speaking, I dislike US culture, politics and economics.

It's not limited to politics.

[The Black Plains]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jan20 ... -j03.shtml

So using pepper spray on a crowd that won't disperse now is police brutality?

Wow, I think I'm done here.

Only if they're liberal

[Antilon]

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jan20 ... -j03.shtml

So using pepper spray on a crowd that won't disperse now is police brutality?

Wow, I think I'm done here.

Alright then, discount that one. But look at the others and tell me that these are isolated incidents.

Or you could just be immature and not own up.

[Dyakovo]

Because it has nothing to do with moving somewhere other than your home country for the sake of finding a place that matches your political ideals... You know, the topic of the thread that you made...

Personally speaking, I dislike US culture, politics and economics.

It's not limited to politics.

And still it was a non-american saying he was in the US because of his girlfriend, not an American saying he was staying in America because of his girlfriend...
In otherwords someone just using this thread as an excuse to announce the fact that he hates America.

[NyxNyke]

Should've read more closely, I thought they were separate incidents. Let me pull up some more in a bit (a lot of reading).

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2012/jan20 ... -j03.shtml
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2011/nov ... -protests/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/10/2 ... 33159.html
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... 6217573952
http://www.mlive.com/news/us-world/inde ... n_occ.html
http://www.kpax.com/news/montana-hs-gra ... t-protest/
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/226438/ ... -spray.htm

What you are seeing here is stranded communist takeover propaganda. Concentrate on the police actions that can be made to appear bad, not on the actions that provoked it. It is ok for someone to block my access but not for the police to clear it? If you really want to work for change do it like Working Assets, Ben & Jerry, and other business. I know it is not as much fun but it is the only was that is truly non violent.

[The Black Plains]

So using pepper spray on a crowd that won't disperse now is police brutality?

Wow, I think I'm done here.

Alright then, discount that one. But look at the others and tell me that these are isolated incidents.

Or you could just be immature and not own up.

Are you calling him immature? All I've gotten from your posts is "Blah blah hate America blah blah generic anti-American hate speech blah blah girlfriend."

[TFF]

Personally speaking, I dislike US culture, politics and economics. I'm not like most Americans (ethnically, socially, culturally) and I don't think like most Americans. So I'm planning to immigrate to a country that is more reflective of my personal ideals.

[The Shrailleeni Empire]

Don't play stupid. You know that the US gov has a history of persecuting leftists.

I don't see how as any patriotism or show of religion other than Islam is prohibited in many school systems. Tea party activist are branded raciest. Speakers who bring out inconvenient facts rather than make up their own are kept off collage campus or if allowed by the college to speak are disrupted by left wing activist. After Joseph McCarthy (who was right all but once) the takeover by the left was complete. What we are seeing now is the internal conflict between various factions like the Mensheviks and Bolsheviks.

Where is Islamic iconery allowed in public school systems? I'd like to see, that is something quite disturbing to me.

Tea Party activists are branded racist, Occupiers are branded lazy hippies, welcome to U.S. politics.

Joseph McCarthy was, barely, ever correct in his accusations, and many of his fellow Cold-War anticommunists distanced themselves from him quite quickly. And if you think that Mensheviks and Bolsheviks are active in U.S. politics, then I doubt that you have ever been here. If you are an American, I have no clue where you've been living, but I doubt that many people would agree that we are a communist nation, or that the left has taken over the country.

[Antilon]

The largest plurality in the Norway parliament is libertarian, just so you know. It takes a coalition of basically every other party to maintain a government. And that party is hardcore about American values. From what I gathered from the National Review article I read on the subject, the leader of said party has several busts and paintings of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher in his office. They also eat Israeli potatoes to piss off the country's progressives who are all like "Israel bad blaaaargh!".

I'd take that over a rigged 2-party system any day.

It's not limited to politics.

And still it was a non-american saying he was in the US because of his girlfriend, not an American saying he was staying in America because of his girlfriend...
In otherwords someone just using this thread as an excuse to announce the fact that he hates America.

... or he could be saying that his reason for staying was romance.

If he really was expressing hatred for the US, then he could've gone into a lot more detail, don't you think?

[Socialdemokraterne]

I've long since given up at banging my head against the wall trying to establish a Social Democratic Party which endorses establishment of the Nordic model in the US with any sort of relevance. The political reality of the US is that we are a two-party state, that's the nature of the electoral system we use. And the Left party here in the US has absolutely no intention of ever enacting the Nordic model. My ideas are never going to be realized in full here. I've accepted that, I've made peace with it, and I'll simply get as much as I can through. Such is the nature of democratic governance, you don't usually get what you want, only a mishmash of your ideas and someone else's.

Does that mean I have to (or even should) leave? Not really. I can still be a productive member of society here. There isn't much political representation of Social Democrats, but that needn't be the only factor to consider. There are upsides to living in the US. Though we do not have the extensive social safety nets I feel we should and a culture of consumption that doesn't match my ideals, there is by virtue of these things immense economic freedom. In Nordic Social Democracies you tend to have everyone settle around the middle class, you don't have much chance of becoming obscenely wealthy in Finland or Denmark. It can be done, it's just unlikely and no one's going to pat you on the back for being rich. There's also an upside if you happen to be a gun-lover: the USA is about the only place on Earth that guns are as freely passed around and as frequently used as they are without the area being a warzone of some kind. The point is, the USA may not be as nice a place to live for me from an ideological standpoint, but it certainly offers quite a few freedoms I wouldn't have in places with politics closer to my ideals in exchange. Don't fall into the illusion that the USA is all bad and the Nordic region is some kind of paradise: you'll be making tradeoffs and gaining things if you go in either direction.

And let's face it, the reality is that immigration to the Nordic region isn't as easy as packing a suitcase and moving. There are a lot of factors that might make Scandinavia and Fennoscandia a bad fit for everyday life in spite of their stunning political records and marvelous numbers regarding standard of living measurements.

*It's prohibitively expensive to move to and live in these countries, and you have to live in them for the majority of the year for several years in order to qualify for citizenship in at least the two that I've looked at (Finland and Denmark).
*These countries also have the cultural tendency to be wary of strangers and to stick to closely established social networks, so trying to associate with people outside of areas with a lot of tourism (Helsinki, Copenhagen) will prove difficult at first. Given that loneliness is one of the major complaints for immigrants, this is a big deal.
*Finnish language proficiency is required for citizenship, and Suomi just happens to be considered the most difficult of all European languages (though frankly I'm not having that hard a time learning it). Denmark has the same requirement for Dansk, though admittedly Dansk is really, really easy to learn if you speak English. Think of it as a slightly more difficult version of German, you'll have the gist.
*Next, you've got to be able to deal with the weather. The reality is that the Nordic region is incredibly far to the north, to the point that whole segments of Norway and Finland enter the Arctic Circle and begin to experience polar day and polar night. Nordic summers are pretty warm but not hot (the Finnish heat record doesn't even break 100 Fahrenheit), but the winters are very cold. There's a reason saunas are so damn popular, I expect.
*Bear in mind that Scandinavia and Fennoscandia are currently experiencing a massive influx of 3rd world immigrants (a lot of Somalians are working their way up to Finland), and that this area has a lot of people pissed off about this. Nationalism has traditionally run fairly high in the Nordic region, but it's especially high right now. If you don't want any trouble, you'd better be all of these: White, Christian, from a Western country, educated, and willing/able to learn the local language with a fair amount of proficiency. The more of those you have missing, the harder it will be for you, and God help you if you're a Muslim. Translation? I'D be fine if I wanted to move to somewhere like Finland. A lot of other people wouldn't.