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Self Ownership

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The Iowa Cactuses
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Self Ownership

Postby The Iowa Cactuses » Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:48 am

Before being turned into a popularity contest riddled with dubious, shadowy-yet-ever-smiling and dodgy characters and negative connotations with the advent of democracy, politics was largely philosophical. What one used to refer to as politics was how we believe society should organise itself, and how one can justify this position through a set of axioms. We have progressed a long way: from the Stoics to the medieval Thomistics, from consequentialism to ethical Kantianism throughout the millennia. When mentioning “politics”, think not banners and badges, campaigns and cake sales, but think “philosophy”, or, more specifically, “political philosophy”.

As I mentioned, each political philosophy relies on a set list of axioms, and from these axioms (which have to be individually proven true) we have to derive which society is the most justifiable. These axioms could be a labour theory of value, an assumption that land is a positive commons, the existence of one or many gods, that humans are intrinsically self-interested, that nature is the most fairest of paths, and many, many more. What is important when discussing political philosophy is the examination of these axioms, taking down the ideology not from what it proposes, but from what it stands on. You will find it much harder to argue in advocacy of the opinion that workers are fully entitled to the fruit of their labour, for instance, when the labour theory of value is remitted from acceptance; when the very basis of this opinion has been itself put into question.

These axiomatic lists are not messy and in no particular order at all, and you will find that the most extensive and most ordered political philosophies are those which have numerically ordered axioms, where 2 must follow from 1, and 3 must follow from 2, and so on. This is from where we derive oxymorons in political terminology. I’m sure you find yourself a little confused when you hear “fascist anarchism” or “capitalist socialism”, because the axiomatic lists of these component ideologies contradict each other, even if you may not realise it directly.

The most structured political philosophies have, however, one weakness. It is a very important weakness that can not easily be overcome, and is found at the very depths of the philosophy. As axiomatic lists go in numerical order, they must obviously have a starting point, a Starter Axiom, if you will. Rejecting the Starter Axiom is rejecting the whole philosophy, whereas acquiescing to the Starter Axiom of a philosophy is agreeing to approximately nine-tenths of its ethical core.

I am a proponent of voluntaryist libertarianism, and have been considered, quite flatteringly, part of the Academic Right, as opposed to the Academic Left. It was in the Anarchism thread that we stopped looking at what exactly I was asking everyone to do, but rather what I was asking everyone to believe-- what ethical arguments I had hidden under the surface of the iceberg, so to speak, to justify the tip of the iceberg. “Why the non-aggression principle?”; “why is force wrong?” were answered quite innocently by me at first, stating that these things are both right and wrong respectively because they either embody or contravene natural law, which renders them either legitimate or illegitimate. “Why natural law?”: well, because natural rights. “Why natural rights?”: well, because you own yourself and this entitles you to certain rights and liberties that none can take away because that would go against the fact that you own yourself. That was it, I realised. That was my Starter Axiom. You can probably guess that answering “why self-ownership?” was met with little more than “just because”, because, after all, it was my Starter Axiom.

There are many ways to justify self-ownership, but the course I took I had to DIY philosophise, because every single right-libertarian or voluntaryist book never goes deeper than “just because”, and that is not an acceptable justification of a Starter Axiom. I took from Aristotelian hylomorphism to justify my opinion on me owning myself. Put bluntly, the bricks that constitute a house belong to the house; the body that constitutes a person belongs to the person. We can put it this way:

i. A brick house is made of bricks.
ii. Without the bricks, there is no brick house.
iii. The bricks belong to the brick house.

Or, alternatively:

i. A is made from B.
ii. If not-B, therefore not-A.
iii. B belongs to A.
1. A owns B.

Where B is the “relative matter” that Aristotle referred to, and A is made possible by the existence of B.

For the human person or mind (or “soul”), consider this:

i. The person is made from the functional body.
ii. Without the functional body, there is no person.
iii. The functional body belongs to the person.
1. The person owns their body.

Where “functional” means a living, working body, which means that if the body was dead (ie, not “functional”), then this could not apply.

So, TL;DR:

Do you own yourself, NSG?
Last edited by The Iowa Cactuses on Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Philjia
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Postby Philjia » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:00 am

Natural rights are nonsense. No political theory has philosophical justification, only social and economic ones. I'm not a liberal because of any particular moral standard; I simply think that the principles of liberalism produce the greatest net benefit for people's happiness.
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Minzerland II
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Postby Minzerland II » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:08 am

Being a Classical Liberal and all, I believe in natural rights. So yes, we do own ourselves.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:21 am

I'm totally lost. What exactly do you mean OP?
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:23 am

Philjia wrote:Natural rights are nonsense. No political theory has philosophical justification, only social and economic ones. I'm not a liberal because of any particular moral standard; I simply think that the principles of liberalism produce the greatest net benefit for people's happiness.
and what is this happiness you speak of
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Maqo
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Postby Maqo » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:27 am

The concept of self ownership is, a little ironically, one of those concepts that I believe is founded on many other axioms. It's presented as a starter axiom my ots proponents of course, but it encapsulates an entire moral system that has arrived at the concept of ownership.
What exactly is ownership? Why is it a good thing?
On your examples you jump straight from "a is composed of b" to "a owns b": but immediately begin using "owns" in the common law use of the word. You need to consider what are the necessary aspects of the relationship between the whole and the parts, as opposed to what are implies when you pick particular words. Why isn't it correct to say that your body owns you, for example?

More importantly, the concept of an axiom is that it cannot be justified. It must be accepted as a thing of itself. If you CAN justify your axiom from other reasons, then those reasons are your real starting point.
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Philjia
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Postby Philjia » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:31 am

Kubra wrote:
Philjia wrote:Natural rights are nonsense. No political theory has philosophical justification, only social and economic ones. I'm not a liberal because of any particular moral standard; I simply think that the principles of liberalism produce the greatest net benefit for people's happiness.
and what is this happiness you speak of


It's not quantifiable; the happiness of an individual is unique to them.
Nemesis the Warlock wrote:I am the Nemesis, I am the Warlock, I am the shape of things to come, the Lord of the Flies, holder of the Sword Sinister, the Death Bringer, I am the one who waits on the edge of your dreams, I am all these things and many more

⚧ Trans rights. ⚧
Pragmatic ethical utopian socialist, IE I'm for whatever kind of socialism is the most moral and practical. Pro LGBT rights and gay marriage, pro gay adoption, generally internationalist, ambivalent on the EU, atheist, pro free speech and expression, pro legalisation of prostitution and soft drugs, and pro choice. Anti authoritarian, anti Marxist. White cishet male.

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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:32 am

Philjia wrote:
Kubra wrote: and what is this happiness you speak of


It's not quantifiable; the happiness of an individual is unique to them.
it's not quantifiable, but you want to raise it?
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Kravanica
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Postby Kravanica » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:45 am

I'm quite confident that I own myself.
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Calladan
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Postby Calladan » Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:52 am

I wouldn't say I "own" myself, because that suggests I have the ability to sell, rent or give myself away, which is a physical impossibility. Even if I were to rent out my body for sex, or medical experimentation, or as a crash-test-dummy, it would still be my body under my control containing my consciousness - just because someone else is using it doesn't mean it belongs to them or is theirs.

And even if I make the choice to completely and utterly submit my will to someone else - to obey their every command and no longer think or act for myself, it is still me in my body. MY consciousness has to follow THEIR commands and THEIR wishes, so it is not THEY who "own" me - I am still me even if I obey them.

I am myself. I don't own me - I am just..... me.

The only time that will end is when I am dead.
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Philjia
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Postby Philjia » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:04 am

Kubra wrote:
Philjia wrote:
It's not quantifiable; the happiness of an individual is unique to them.
it's not quantifiable, but you want to raise it?


I want to let people do whatever they want that doesn't harm other people. This would probably make more people happy.
Nemesis the Warlock wrote:I am the Nemesis, I am the Warlock, I am the shape of things to come, the Lord of the Flies, holder of the Sword Sinister, the Death Bringer, I am the one who waits on the edge of your dreams, I am all these things and many more

⚧ Trans rights. ⚧
Pragmatic ethical utopian socialist, IE I'm for whatever kind of socialism is the most moral and practical. Pro LGBT rights and gay marriage, pro gay adoption, generally internationalist, ambivalent on the EU, atheist, pro free speech and expression, pro legalisation of prostitution and soft drugs, and pro choice. Anti authoritarian, anti Marxist. White cishet male.

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Even Less of Mackonia
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Postby Even Less of Mackonia » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:08 am

The person does not necessarily have to be separate from the functional body. Indeed how would it be?

How does the fact I "own" myself mean I cannot coerce others?
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Even Less of Mackonia
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Postby Even Less of Mackonia » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:09 am

Philjia wrote:Natural rights are nonsense. No political theory has philosophical justification, only social and economic ones. I'm not a liberal because of any particular moral standard; I simply think that the principles of liberalism produce the greatest net benefit for people's happiness.


Congratulations! You're being a liberal from a philosophical justification.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Thu Oct 20, 2016 9:40 am

Philjia wrote:
Kubra wrote: it's not quantifiable, but you want to raise it?


I want to let people do whatever they want that doesn't harm other people. This would probably make more people happy.
how would you know? It ain't quantifiable.
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
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Lady Scylla
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Postby Lady Scylla » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:09 am

Natural rights are ludicrous. The body is merely a mechanism to give the brain feedback so it may form a sense of self. While the brain, you, does control the body, anyone can take such away. It's not inviolable or subject to some grand punishment beyond human law should such happen. As far as natural law goes, the Universe really couldn't care. Your death, or enslavement matters little to anything other than you, and anyone who feels compassion for you.

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Philjia
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Postby Philjia » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:54 am

Even Less of Mackonia wrote:
Philjia wrote:Natural rights are nonsense. No political theory has philosophical justification, only social and economic ones. I'm not a liberal because of any particular moral standard; I simply think that the principles of liberalism produce the greatest net benefit for people's happiness.


Congratulations! You're being a liberal from a philosophical justification.


Happiness benefits society. I live in society. Therefore what benefits society benefits me.
Nemesis the Warlock wrote:I am the Nemesis, I am the Warlock, I am the shape of things to come, the Lord of the Flies, holder of the Sword Sinister, the Death Bringer, I am the one who waits on the edge of your dreams, I am all these things and many more

⚧ Trans rights. ⚧
Pragmatic ethical utopian socialist, IE I'm for whatever kind of socialism is the most moral and practical. Pro LGBT rights and gay marriage, pro gay adoption, generally internationalist, ambivalent on the EU, atheist, pro free speech and expression, pro legalisation of prostitution and soft drugs, and pro choice. Anti authoritarian, anti Marxist. White cishet male.

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New Axiom
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Postby New Axiom » Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:58 am

Why wouldn't I own myself?

I can do what I want with my body, like put holes in it, draw on it, and wear jewelry. I can also dress in what I want, and say what I want.
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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:07 am

Philjia wrote:
Even Less of Mackonia wrote:
Congratulations! You're being a liberal from a philosophical justification.


Happiness benefits society. I live in society. Therefore what benefits society benefits me.
does it benefit society? Why?
“Atomic war is inevitable. It will destroy half of humanity: it is going to destroy immense human riches. It is very possible. The atomic war is going to provoke a true inferno on Earth. But it will not impede Communism.”
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Lady Scylla
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Postby Lady Scylla » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:08 am

Kubra wrote:
Philjia wrote:
Happiness benefits society. I live in society. Therefore what benefits society benefits me.
does it benefit society? Why?


Well, when you consider it. Happy people are less likely to cause problems, and more likely to be productive. So it benefits the State and stability, really. That's my justification for supporting civil liberties, mind.
Last edited by Lady Scylla on Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Kubra
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Postby Kubra » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:09 am

Lady Scylla wrote:
Kubra wrote: does it benefit society? Why?


Well, when you consider it. Happy people are less likely to cause problems, and more likely to be productive. So it benefits the State and stability, really. That's my justification for supporting civil liberties, mind.
productivity? Never cared for it. Problems? Not a problem, I say!
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Nusaresa
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Postby Nusaresa » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:11 am

What self is there to begin with originally?
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Nusaresa welcomes you.
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Even Less of Mackonia
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Postby Even Less of Mackonia » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:15 am

Philjia wrote:
Even Less of Mackonia wrote:
Congratulations! You're being a liberal from a philosophical justification.


Happiness benefits society. I live in society. Therefore what benefits society benefits me.


Society doesn't really exist in terms of happiness outside of the interests of its individuals, and those interests could just as well be for you to be unhappy.

And that's still a philosophical justification.

And I'm sure Happiness doesn't "benefit" society, I'd imagine most, not myself, but most would claim the benefit is happiness itself as the end of some other means.
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Sierra Lyricalia
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:18 am

Property ownership of one's self requires the logical possibility that one could sell one's ownership stake; and that someone else could buy that stake. I reject any philosophy that rests on a system of beliefs in which people can be bought and sold, period. Therefore the concept of property rights as the source and protector of personal rights, civil liberties, or what have you, is completely bankrupt and without merit. Self-ownership is a bad concept because ownership of persons is unacceptable.
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Russleb
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Postby Russleb » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:22 am

In my observations people define themselves according to how their tribe(whatever group that is) views them, meaning they rely on external validation. We tend to fall into stereotypes and may never realize it. People growing up being told they're special(to use a sweeping generalization) is a huge disservice. Most of us grow up to be very average as not everyone will be a famous entertainer, head of a powerful corporation or a politician.

Men in particular validate themselves through their actions, kinda wanting to leave their mark on the world, on history, whatever that may be. A common one I hear is they wanna have kids and keep the bloodline going. It's perfectly understandable for any living creature to want to propagate their genes, but your bloodline matters very little when you consider how genetic diversity works. Your grandkids will likely have very little in common with you on a biological level unless you partake in incest(gross).

I'm of the belief that most people just go with the flow, don't really think. Not that they're dumb, they just go along with the herd(we're social creatures). That's not to say that those with antisocial tendencies are the only ones who can achieve self ownership, as plenty are fatalistic, meaning they think it's destiny and out of their control for whatever it is they're trying to do. In all most people lack the ability of self reflection and to realise their own bullshit, and hence can't own themselves. On a more cynical note, owning oneself takes too much responsibility, the kind people like to avoid so there's a bit of a natural aversion to it.

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Postby Wallenburg » Thu Oct 20, 2016 11:25 am

Yes, we own ourselves. That is the foundation of the concept of liberty. Without it, there's really very little point to live at all.
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