Christian Discussion Thread VIII: Augustine's Revenge.

[Camaalbakrius]

Vote Gary Johnson: "What is Aleppo?"

But on a philosophical level, Cam...what is Aleppo?

A place where HERETICS have taken over and must be PURGED

[United Marxist Nations]

No Christian should vote Democrat either. The Far left wants government to play a part in your religion and make it so you can't deny services for a gay wedding, for example, if you are a christian. This has happened, and people have been sued for it. There is no correct side in this battle between Democrats and Republicans.

Christians should just overthrow the government. Get Const and UMN together and viva all la revolutions. xP

Preferably before this upcoming election.... xP

Eh, tbh, while I definitely like Const, he's a little too far Left for my tastes. I'm more on the traditionalist communitarian side these days.

[Diopolis]

Christians should just overthrow the government. Get Const and UMN together and viva all la revolutions. xP

Preferably before this upcoming election.... xP

Eh, tbh, while I definitely like Const, he's a little too far Left for my tastes. I'm more on the traditionalist communitarian side these days.

You and I could take over, and work out how dirigistic we're going later.

[United Marxist Nations]

Eh, tbh, while I definitely like Const, he's a little too far Left for my tastes. I'm more on the traditionalist communitarian side these days.

You and I could take over, and work out how dirigistic we're going later.

Eh, that implies capitalism. I'm still anti-capitalist, for a whole host of reasons, including moral scruples, but also for practicality reasons.

I'm just not as directly committed to state socialism as I once was. I still think the bourgeois, as a class, work to undermine Christianity, though.

[-Fahrong-]

You and I could take over, and work out how dirigistic we're going later.

Eh, that implies capitalism. I'm still anti-capitalist, for a whole host of reasons, including moral scruples, but also for practicality reasons.

I'm just not as directly committed to state socialism as I once was. I still think the bourgeois, as a class, work to undermine Christianity, though.

I am in a similar boat.

[The Princes of the Universe]

You and I could take over, and work out how dirigistic we're going later.

Eh, that implies capitalism. I'm still anti-capitalist, for a whole host of reasons, including moral scruples, but also for practicality reasons.
I'm just not as directly committed to state socialism as I once was. I still think the bourgeois, as a class, work to undermine Christianity, though.

I'm content to keep a heavy boot on their throats in the interest of putting their unfortunately necessary skills to some positive use.

[Nordengrund]

Vote Libertarian. They can't do any worse than the two main parties. Or vote for the Constitution Party if you prefer them over Libertarians.

From a Christian perspective, the libertarians are the worst of both worlds. The Constitutionalists/American Solidarity Party aren't really perfect either, but at least they're demonstrably trying.

Well, my sympathy for the Libertarians is mainly because I'm a Georgist. While the party's platform is quite laissez faire, there are Georgist members.

Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of Republicans are right leaning fiscally, and I feel there is little room for people with me even though I agree with their stances on abortions, guns, and Israel.

There is a caucus in the Democratic Party that promotes some Georgist principles, but unfortunately, it sides with the national party on abortion.

Both parties seem to favor bureaucracy and strong government, and I think we need to reverse this and make sure America remains the land of the free.

[United Marxist Nations]

From a Christian perspective, the libertarians are the worst of both worlds. The Constitutionalists/American Solidarity Party aren't really perfect either, but at least they're demonstrably trying.

Well, my sympathy for the Libertarians is mainly because I'm a Georgist. While the party's platform is quite laissez faire, there are Georgist members.

Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of Republicans are right leaning fiscally, and I feel there is little room for people with me even though I agree with their stances on abortions, guns, and Israel.

There is a caucus in the Democratic Party that promotes some Georgist principles, but unfortunately, it sides with the national party on abortion.

Both parties seem to favor bureaucracy and strong government, and I think we need to reverse this and make sure America remains the land of the free.

Can I ask why you support Israel?

[Nordengrund]

Well, my sympathy for the Libertarians is mainly because I'm a Georgist. While the party's platform is quite laissez faire, there are Georgist members.

Unfortunately, the overwhelming majority of Republicans are right leaning fiscally, and I feel there is little room for people with me even though I agree with their stances on abortions, guns, and Israel.

There is a caucus in the Democratic Party that promotes some Georgist principles, but unfortunately, it sides with the national party on abortion.

Both parties seem to favor bureaucracy and strong government, and I think we need to reverse this and make sure America remains the land of the free.

Can I ask why you support Israel?

I believe there is eschatological significance of the nation. I wouldn't call myself a dispensationalist, and there is certainly some overlap between Israel and the Church.

[United Marxist Nations]

Can I ask why you support Israel?

I believe there is eschatological significance of the nation. I wouldn't call myself a dispensationalist, and there is certainly some overlap between Israel and the Church.

But, certainly you would agree that the real Israel is the body of Christians, not the State of Israel, which has, in fact, taken action against Palestinian Christians.

[Nordengrund]

I believe there is eschatological significance of the nation. I wouldn't call myself a dispensationalist, and there is certainly some overlap between Israel and the Church.

But, certainly you would agree that the real Israel is the body of Christians, not the State of Israel, which has, in fact, taken action against Palestinian Christians.

Yes. However, Paul expresses hope for ethnic Israel that they will come to the faith and all Israel will be saved. While it may not technically be "true Israel", God still has a plan for the nation. National Israel will one day be grafted back in.

The Jews will always have a right to the land, but you are right that Palestinians are mistreated. The OT makes provisions for non-Jews to be treated charitably in Israel. One of the primary duties of the prophets was to speak out against the injustices committed by Israel, yet they weren't anti-Israel. They wanted the nation to see error in its ways and repent.

So while the Jews have a divine right to the land, they must still treat all non Jews who live among them with respect and compassion.

[United Marxist Nations]

But, certainly you would agree that the real Israel is the body of Christians, not the State of Israel, which has, in fact, taken action against Palestinian Christians.

Yes. However, Paul expresses hope for ethnic Israel that they will come to the faith and all Israel will be saved. While it may not technically be "true Israel", God still has a plan for the nation. National Israel will one day be grafted back in.

The Jews will always have a right to the land, but you are right that Palestinians are mistreated. The OT makes provisions for non-Jews to be treated charitably in Israel. One of the primary duties of the prophets was to speak out against the injustices committed by Israel, yet they weren't anti-Israel. They wanted the nation to see error in its ways and repent.

So while the Jews have a divine right to the land, they must still treat all non Jews who live among them with respect and compassion.

But, if the Jews are no longer Israel, but Christians are, doesn't that mean that the Palestinian Christians have more right to the land than the Jews, who are non-believers?

[Nordengrund]

Yes. However, Paul expresses hope for ethnic Israel that they will come to the faith and all Israel will be saved. While it may not technically be "true Israel", God still has a plan for the nation. National Israel will one day be grafted back in.

The Jews will always have a right to the land, but you are right that Palestinians are mistreated. The OT makes provisions for non-Jews to be treated charitably in Israel. One of the primary duties of the prophets was to speak out against the injustices committed by Israel, yet they weren't anti-Israel. They wanted the nation to see error in its ways and repent.

So while the Jews have a divine right to the land, they must still treat all non Jews who live among them with respect and compassion.

But, if the Jews are no longer Israel, but Christians are, doesn't that mean that the Palestinian Christians have more right to the land than the Jews, who are non-believers?

They may not be Israel at this moment, but they will be in the future. In the NT, Israel can refer the believers, ethnic Jews, or even the nation. If all Israel will be saved, it would be redundant for this referring to the Church since the Church is made up of people who are already saved.

I never said Palestinians never had a right to be there, just that Israel has a right to the land, but the Jews must be charitable and accepting of all non-Jews. OT verses about Israel's restoration mentions non-Jews will live among them in their land and and the Jews must act charitably towards them.

I also don't see Israel's founding as a coincidence, as the OT and the NT (to a lesser extent) discuss Israel's restoration, and it happened. I also doubt it's a coincidence that Israel has a pretty strong military when it comes to defense, and not to mention the Six Day War.

Regardless of how you feel about premillennialism, 19th century dispensationalists predicted and expected a refunding of Israel.

[United Marxist Nations]

But, if the Jews are no longer Israel, but Christians are, doesn't that mean that the Palestinian Christians have more right to the land than the Jews, who are non-believers?

They may not be Israel at this moment, but they will be in the future. In the NT, Israel can refer the believers, ethnic Jews, or even the nation. If all Israel will be saved, it would be redundant for this referring to the Church since the Church is made up of people who are already saved.

I never said Palestinians never had a right to be there, just that Israel has a right to the land, but the Jews must be charitable and accepting of all non-Jews. OT verses about Israel's restoration mentions non-Jews will live among them in their land and and the Jews must act charitably towards them.

I also don't see Israel's founding as a coincidence, as the OT and the NT (to a lesser extent) discuss Israel's restoration, and it happened. I also doubt it's a coincidence that Israel has a pretty strong military when it comes to defense, and not to mention the Six Day War.

Regardless of how you feel about premillennialism, 19th century dispensationalists predicted and expected a refunding of Israel.

Israel is certainly not being charitable toward non-Jews, so how do you support unapologetic support for them?

[Nordengrund]

They may not be Israel at this moment, but they will be in the future. In the NT, Israel can refer the believers, ethnic Jews, or even the nation. If all Israel will be saved, it would be redundant for this referring to the Church since the Church is made up of people who are already saved.

I never said Palestinians never had a right to be there, just that Israel has a right to the land, but the Jews must be charitable and accepting of all non-Jews. OT verses about Israel's restoration mentions non-Jews will live among them in their land and and the Jews must act charitably towards them.

I also don't see Israel's founding as a coincidence, as the OT and the NT (to a lesser extent) discuss Israel's restoration, and it happened. I also doubt it's a coincidence that Israel has a pretty strong military when it comes to defense, and not to mention the Six Day War.

Regardless of how you feel about premillennialism, 19th century dispensationalists predicted and expected a refunding of Israel.

Israel is certainly not being charitable toward non-Jews, so how do you support unapologetic support for them?

Simple. As Christians, we have the responsibility to show them the error in their ways. We must pray that they will change.

[United Marxist Nations]

Israel is certainly not being charitable toward non-Jews, so how do you support unapologetic support for them?

Simple. As Christians, we have the responsibility to show them the error in their ways. We must pray that they will change.

That doesn't mean we have to support them in their error. Why should we not withhold aid and put sanctions on them?

[New confederate ramenia]

Eh, that implies capitalism. I'm still anti-capitalist, for a whole host of reasons, including moral scruples, but also for practicality reasons.

I'm just not as directly committed to state socialism as I once was. I still think the bourgeois, as a class, work to undermine Christianity, though.

I am in a similar boat.

Same.

[Talvezout]

Jack Chick has died.

[Never had a pot noodle]

Christians should just overthrow the government. Get Const and UMN together and viva all la revolutions. xP

Preferably before this upcoming election.... xP

Eh, tbh, while I definitely like Const, he's a little too far Left for my tastes. I'm more on the traditionalist communitarian side these days.

Are you like Alasdair Macintyre?

[United Marxist Nations]

Eh, tbh, while I definitely like Const, he's a little too far Left for my tastes. I'm more on the traditionalist communitarian side these days.

Are you like Alasdair Macintyre?

I don't know about in what area you mean that in.

[Never had a pot noodle]

Are you like Alasdair Macintyre?

I don't know about in what area you mean that in.

Christian communitarian ex-Marxist.

[United Marxist Nations]

I don't know about in what area you mean that in.

Christian communitarian ex-Marxist.

In that way, pretty much.

[Salus Maior]

Simple. As Christians, we have the responsibility to show them the error in their ways. We must pray that they will change.

That doesn't mean we have to support them in their error. Why should we not withhold aid and put sanctions on them?

Because the Christians who do live in Israel are far better of than they would be under Islamic authorities in this day and age?

[Constantinopolis]

That doesn't mean we have to support them in their error. Why should we not withhold aid and put sanctions on them?

Because the Christians who do live in Israel are far better of than they would be under Islamic authorities in this day and age?

False dichotomy. They don't have to choose between Israel and an Islamic regime. Middle Eastern Christians in general have traditionally been among the strongest supporters of secular Arab nationalism, as represented by states like Egypt under Nasser, or Lebanon and Syria before the war. And the Christians have been just as opposed to Israel and Zionism as their Muslim neighbors.

Christians who live in Israel are overwhelmingly anti-Israel and supportive of a secular Arab or multi-ethnic state in historic Palestine.

Western Christians need to actually start listening to what the Middle Eastern Christians are saying, and what they are saying is: We are Arabs and we stand with our Muslim brothers and sisters against Israeli occupation.

Israel is a 19th century-style ethnic nationalist state obsessed with racial purity (don't believe me? read what Israeli sources are saying about the absolute need to preserve an ethnic Jewish majority in their country, then imagine if someone talked like that about the need to preserve a white majority in America) - which is, of course, a massive historical irony. Israel is not religiously oppressive as such, but it is racist at a level that hasn't been seen in the West since the 1950s. And Christians are among the victims of this racism, because they are Arabs. The Jews are an ethno-religious group; so a secular state that discriminates against non-Jews on secular ethnic grounds ends up oppressing Christians by default, not because of their religion but because they are not ethnically Jewish.

Of course other states in the region are even worse, but that's not an excuse. Israel has been trying to justify its racism under the argument that "look, we're not as bad as Saudi Arabia" for decades, and it's completely true that they're not as bad as Saudi Arabia or the Gulf monarchies - but no country in Europe or the Americas or most of Asia would get away with such low standards. The fact that there exists a black hole of intense tyranny in the Arabian Peninsula shouldn't automatically create a "zone of low standards" for several thousand kilometers around it (especially since the West could destroy that intense tyranny at any time by not buying their filthy oil).

[Constantinopolis]

You and I could take over, and work out how dirigistic we're going later.

Eh, that implies capitalism. I'm still anti-capitalist, for a whole host of reasons, including moral scruples, but also for practicality reasons.

I'm just not as directly committed to state socialism as I once was. I still think the bourgeois, as a class, work to undermine Christianity, though.

I am absolutely committed to state socialism because the history of the last 200 years seems to indicate very strongly that state socialism is the only kind of system actually capable of overthrowing and replacing capitalism. And I am a revolutionary because the same history seems to indicate very strongly that capitalism cannot be defeated by any other means besides revolution. No reformist attempts to move beyond capitalism have ever succeeded.

If I actually believed that other viable non-capitalist options existed, I may not be a state socialist. But I do not see any reason to believe that any of the other alternatives to capitalism can actually exist and be stable.

So I am a sort of "traditionalist revolutionary", as strange as this sounds: I want the revolution to try to build a system that other revolutions have successfully built before, because we know that it can be done - as opposed to trying to build a system that no modern society has ever had before.

If some new anti-capitalist movement were to arise and successfully replace capitalism with a different type of society somewhere, I would very strongly consider switching my allegiance to this new movement. But as long as I see no sign of that happening, I will remain a state socialist.