Could Nihei's Blame! Megastructure actually exist?

[Altergo]

So I just finished reading a manga called Blame! by Tsutomu Nihei and I first off want to highly recommend it to everyone. But that isn't the point for this post, it's about the setting it is in.

Supposedly it's a SUPERMASSIVE sphere like structure called "The City" that stretches from the Sun to the Oort belt.

*Image that shows Betelgeuse overlaying the orbits of the solar system, which in turn is inside the black which is the Oort Belt...The City is bigger than orange overlay. Note: The sun is the small yellow dot in the middle*

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/1e11m_comparison_R_Doradus_and_Betelgeuse%2C_and_smaller_-_antialiased_no_transparency.png

This world contains rooms the size of planets (The main character/indestructible immortal badass, Killy, walks through a room the size of Jupiter) and it takes several months to hundreds of years to travel from one place to another on super fast elevators. This whole structure itself is being built into infinity by rampant building machines the size of neighborhoods. (Their building material is described as baryonic dark matter or something like that...I'm no physicist or civil engineer so I have no idea what that meant when the author said it)

*Jupiter Room*

http://9.p.s.mfcdn.net/store/manga/304/09-057.0/compressed/Blame_v09_c58_p186.jpg

*Elevator*

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/304/039.2/compressed/Blame_v07_c01_p022.jpg?v=11192377606

*Building Machine (Right) and Safeguard Titan (Left)(Explained next paragraph)

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/304/019.0/compressed/Blame_v03_c019_p210_211.jpg?v=11192376416

On top of all of this, there's a digital super AI/cyberspace called the "NetSphere" that spans the entire structure, and contains a little program called the "Safeguard". The Safeguard is like an "anti-virus" that deploys various security drones that range from hordes of drones to god like cyborgs to stop people from crossing over once thought to be indestructible walls called "megastructure" that divides up The City into nice little thousand mile quadrants, save people with special "Net Genes" that the main character spends thousands of years of his life trying to find.

*Lowest Class Safeguard Horde chasing down last remnant of humans in The City*

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/304/019.0/compressed/Blame_v03_c019_p225.jpg?v=11192376416

*First Class "immortal with relativistic abilities" safeguard*

http://www.mangahere.co/manga/blame/c063/22.html

Now my point of sharing all of this is this; is it possible for a structure of this size to exist/be built by an advanced race in the Universe? Could a programming system compute fast enough to respond instantaneously and intelligently over this massive of a space (Center of the Sun to outskirts of the Oort Cloud)? Would it collapse instantaneously into the Universe's biggest Void/Black Hole?

Or is this simply that? Science Fiction and completely out of the realm of this Universe.

[Big Jim P]

Just the idea of a Dyson Sphere taken to it's logical extreme.

[The Corparation]

Probably not. At least not without wank materials to keep it from breaking and wank star-drives to import material from other solar systems. A dyson Sphere or ringworld could feasiblky be made with what's floating in a system, but not something that big.

Just the idea of a Dyson Sphere taken to it's logical extreme.

No, its not even close to a Dyson sphere taken to the logical extreme. Taken to the extreme involves building it around a decent chunk of the galaxy. For more info see Larry Niven's Essay, "Bigger than Worlds" in which he covers space habbitats from a hollowed out asteroid to his famous ringworld up to the aforementioned galactic dyson sphere.

[Altergo]

Probably not. At least not without wank materials to keep it from breaking and wank star-drives to import material from other solar systems. A dyson Sphere or ringworld could feasiblky be made with what's floating in a system, but not something that big.

Just the idea of a Dyson Sphere taken to it's logical extreme.

No, its not even close to a Dyson sphere taken to the logical extreme. Taken to the extreme involves building it around a decent chunk of the galaxy. For more info see Larry Niven's Essay, "Bigger than Worlds" in which he covers space habbitats from a hollowed out asteroid to his famous ringworld up to the aforementioned galactic dyson sphere.

I wouldn't say it's galactic sized, but it's around the size of the entire solar system and related comet orbits...pretty big nonetheless

[Risottia]

Supposedly it's a SUPERMASSIVE sphere like structure called "The City" that stretches from the Sun to the Oort belt.

No, the shear forces would simply tear it apart. Whatever material you use to build it.

[The Archregimancy]

Just the idea of a Dyson Sphere taken to it's logical extreme.

It's a misconception that Dyson outlined the solid sphere concept that now carries his name (more correctly a 'Dyson Shell'). As the man himself noted:

"A solid shell or ring surrounding a star is mechanically impossible. The form of 'biosphere' which I envisaged consists of a loose collection or swarm of objects traveling on independent orbits around the star."

Dyson, F. J., Maddox, J., Anderson, P., & Sloane, E. A.
1960"Letters and Response, Search for Artificial Stellar Sources of Infrared Radiation". Science 132 (3421): 250–253.

Dyson himself has suggested calling the solid shell concept a "Stapledon Sphere" since he was inspired by a similar concept appearing in Olaf Stapledon's classic novel Starmaker.

One of the primary problems with a solid Dyson Sphere (and here I admit entirely leaning on my father the retired physicist) is that it has no inherent gravitational interaction either with its enclosed sun or with any objects placed on its interior surface. This means some form of propulsion would be necessary to stop drift which would eventually lead to a collision with the sun, and that any unattached objects on the interior surface would simply slowly fall towards the sun.

That's why a Niven Ring has hypothetical attractions over the Dyson Shell; you can at least rotate it to form a gravitational field on the interior surface - though you would still need to address the orbital drift issue.

[L Ron Cupboard]

Surely a Dyson Shell would be made out of purple and grey plastic, and use dual cyclone technology?

[The Sotoan Union]

I don't see the point. What does this giant sphere achieve? Why wouldn't a sphere that covers the sun work?

[Sun Wukong]

Just the idea of a Dyson Sphere taken to it's logical extreme.

It's a misconception that Dyson outlined the solid sphere concept that now carries his name (more correctly a 'Dyson Shell'). As the man himself noted:

"A solid shell or ring surrounding a star is mechanically impossible. The form of 'biosphere' which I envisaged consists of a loose collection or swarm of objects traveling on independent orbits around the star."

Dyson, F. J., Maddox, J., Anderson, P., & Sloane, E. A.
1960"Letters and Response, Search for Artificial Stellar Sources of Infrared Radiation". Science 132 (3421): 250–253.

Dyson himself has suggested calling the solid shell concept a "Stapledon Sphere" since he was inspired by a similar concept appearing in Olaf Stapledon's classic novel Starmaker.

One of the primary problems with a solid Dyson Sphere (and here I admit entirely leaning on my father the retired physicist) is that it has no inherent gravitational interaction either with its enclosed sun or with any objects placed on its interior surface. This means some form of propulsion would be necessary to stop drift which would eventually lead to a collision with the sun, and that any unattached objects on the interior surface would simply slowly fall towards the sun.

That's why a Niven Ring has hypothetical attractions over the Dyson Shell; you can at least rotate it to form a gravitational field on the interior surface - though you would still need to address the orbital drift issue.

"I'm a Pierson's Puppeteer, and I approve this message."

[The Corparation]

"I'm a Pierson's Puppeteer, and I approve this message."

Outsiders > Puppeteerrs. Just sayin. Puppeteers are manipulative dicks.

[Trotskylvania]

I don't see the point. What does this giant sphere achieve? Why wouldn't a sphere that covers the sun work?

It's more of a horror story than sci-fi. The purpose of the megastructure is never alluded to, it's just a dark and inhospitable environment that's trying to kill the protagonists.

The problem with this megastructure goes well beyond the simple problem of materials science. The chief problem is gravity. The structure would outmass the sun by many orders of magnitude. And unlike supermassive stars, the core of this structure isn't an energetic plasma that is at millions of degrees kelvin to support it against gravitational contraction. The gravitational forces experienced at the center of the structure would be far greater than electron, neutron or even quark degeneracy pressure.

The gravitational force being exerted would cause the core of the object to collapse into a singularity, and since the structure has no rotational energy, its entire mass would begin falling into the singularity. And as you went outward from the singularity, you'd have stages of increasingly degenerate matter changing phases, and shockwaves from the gravitational collapse that would create an explosion reminiscent of a supernova.

tl;dr The megastructure would supernova and collapse into a black hole.

[Sun Wukong]

"I'm a Pierson's Puppeteer, and I approve this message."

Outsiders < Puppeteerrs. Just sayin. Puppeteers are wonderful creatures. Who would never use other's against their will.

Pierson's Puppeteers: The Corporation approved!

[The Corparation]

Outsiders < Puppeteerrs. Just sayin. Puppeteers are wonderful creatures. Who would never use other's against their will.

Pierson's Puppeteers: The Corporation approved!

Oh come on, the puppeters are so much more subtle than that. Or at the very least would have shelled out a few grand to silence me. *hint hint hint*

[Cyrisnia]

Nah.
If we make things from Manga exist, there'd be too many tentacles.

[Carbon based lifeforms]

Nihei assumes that gravity is no problem, because they somehow managed to manipulate it. This is evident in Killy's graviton beam emitter, as well as in the Toha Heavy Industries habitat. The superstructure itself relies on the same assumption.

In reality, it's not possible (as far as we know) to manipulate gravity. There are other issues with Blame!, but this is the fundamental one, as Trotsky pointed out.

[Altergo]

Nihei assumes that gravity is no problem, because they somehow managed to manipulate it. This is evident in Killy's graviton beam emitter, as well as in the Toha Heavy Industries habitat. The superstructure itself relies on the same assumption.

In reality, it's not possible (as far as we know) to manipulate gravity. There are other issues with Blame!, but this is the fundamental one, as Trotsky pointed out.

If there were massive "gravity furnaces" throughout the City like the Toha Heavy Industries "spaceship" that phased matter in and out of existence at will, would that have any effect in the city completely destroying itself?

[Cyrisnia]

Nihei assumes that gravity is no problem, because they somehow managed to manipulate it. This is evident in Killy's graviton beam emitter, as well as in the Toha Heavy Industries habitat. The superstructure itself relies on the same assumption.

In reality, it's not possible (as far as we know) to manipulate gravity. There are other issues with Blame!, but this is the fundamental one, as Trotsky pointed out.

If there were massive "gravity furnaces" throughout the City like the Toha Heavy Industries "spaceship" that phased matter in and out of existence at will, would that have any effect in the city completely destroying itself?

It depends.
How many people there are baka-gaijins who are totes unkawaii?

[Big Jim P]

Probably not. At least not without wank materials to keep it from breaking and wank star-drives to import material from other solar systems. A dyson Sphere or ringworld could feasiblky be made with what's floating in a system, but not something that big.

Just the idea of a Dyson Sphere taken to it's logical extreme.

No, its not even close to a Dyson sphere taken to the logical extreme. Taken to the extreme involves building it around a decent chunk of the galaxy. For more info see Larry Niven's Essay, "Bigger than Worlds" in which he covers space habbitats from a hollowed out asteroid to his famous ringworld up to the aforementioned galactic dyson sphere.

I have read Nivens work. Most of his work in fact.

[Big Jim P]

Just the idea of a Dyson Sphere taken to it's logical extreme.

It's a misconception that Dyson outlined the solid sphere concept that now carries his name (more correctly a 'Dyson Shell'). As the man himself noted:

"A solid shell or ring surrounding a star is mechanically impossible. The form of 'biosphere' which I envisaged consists of a loose collection or swarm of objects traveling on independent orbits around the star."

Dyson, F. J., Maddox, J., Anderson, P., & Sloane, E. A.
1960"Letters and Response, Search for Artificial Stellar Sources of Infrared Radiation". Science 132 (3421): 250–253.

Dyson himself has suggested calling the solid shell concept a "Stapledon Sphere" since he was inspired by a similar concept appearing in Olaf Stapledon's classic novel Starmaker.

One of the primary problems with a solid Dyson Sphere (and here I admit entirely leaning on my father the retired physicist) is that it has no inherent gravitational interaction either with its enclosed sun or with any objects placed on its interior surface. This means some form of propulsion would be necessary to stop drift which would eventually lead to a collision with the sun, and that any unattached objects on the interior surface would simply slowly fall towards the sun.

That's why a Niven Ring has hypothetical attractions over the Dyson Shell; you can at least rotate it to form a gravitational field on the interior surface - though you would still need to address the orbital drift issue.

Read that too, but I was going for the sci-fi standard.

[Vladislavija]

This whole structure itself is being built into infinity by rampant building machines the size of neighborhoods. (Their building material is described as baryonic dark matter or something like that...I'm no physicist or civil engineer so I have no idea what that meant when the author said it)

Do you see a problem of having infinite building inside of finite universe?

[Blazedtown]

"I was reading some manga and it inspired me"

I think I see the problem.

[Shnercropolis]

So I just finished reading a manga called Blame! by Tsutomu Nihei and I first off want to highly recommend it to everyone. But that isn't the point for this post, it's about the setting it is in.

Supposedly it's a SUPERMASSIVE sphere like structure called "The City" that stretches from the Sun to the Oort belt.

*Image that shows Betelgeuse overlaying the orbits of the solar system, which in turn is inside the black which is the Oort Belt...The City is bigger than orange overlay. Note: The sun is the small yellow dot in the middle*

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/1e11m_comparison_R_Doradus_and_Betelgeuse%2C_and_smaller_-_antialiased_no_transparency.png

This world contains rooms the size of planets (The main character/indestructible immortal badass, Killy, walks through a room the size of Jupiter) and it takes several months to hundreds of years to travel from one place to another on super fast elevators. This whole structure itself is being built into infinity by rampant building machines the size of neighborhoods. (Their building material is described as baryonic dark matter or something like that...I'm no physicist or civil engineer so I have no idea what that meant when the author said it)

*Jupiter Room*

http://9.p.s.mfcdn.net/store/manga/304/09-057.0/compressed/Blame_v09_c58_p186.jpg

*Elevator*

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/304/039.2/compressed/Blame_v07_c01_p022.jpg?v=11192377606

*Building Machine (Right) and Safeguard Titan (Left)(Explained next paragraph)

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/304/019.0/compressed/Blame_v03_c019_p210_211.jpg?v=11192376416

On top of all of this, there's a digital super AI/cyberspace called the "NetSphere" that spans the entire structure, and contains a little program called the "Safeguard". The Safeguard is like an "anti-virus" that deploys various security drones that range from hordes of drones to god like cyborgs to stop people from crossing over once thought to be indestructible walls called "megastructure" that divides up The City into nice little thousand mile quadrants, save people with special "Net Genes" that the main character spends thousands of years of his life trying to find.

*Lowest Class Safeguard Horde chasing down last remnant of humans in The City*

http://z.mhcdn.net/store/manga/304/019.0/compressed/Blame_v03_c019_p225.jpg?v=11192376416

*First Class "immortal with relativistic abilities" safeguard*

http://www.mangahere.co/manga/blame/c063/22.html

Now my point of sharing all of this is this; is it possible for a structure of this size to exist/be built by an advanced race in the Universe? Could a programming system compute fast enough to respond instantaneously and intelligently over this massive of a space (Center of the Sun to outskirts of the Oort Butt)? Would it collapse instantaneously into the Universe's biggest Void/Black Hole?

Or is this simply that? Science Fiction and completely out of the realm of this Universe.

well.
For one it would collapse into a star.
For another it would also have enough gravity to kill anything outside a certain radius.
For another there's definitely not enough matter, dark matter, or energy to create a structure that big inside the solar system.

Theoretically, with a fractal-like distributed computing system, response times could be pretty fast. Cyberspace interactions from more than a few hundred thousand kilometers away would be very slow, though.

And at last, why would anybody build that?

[Blazedtown]

And at last, why would anybody build that?

Its from magna, I'm sure it has to do with tentacle rape.

[Shnercropolis]

And at last, why would anybody build that?

Its from magna, I'm sure it has to do with tentacle rape.

but of course.

[Shnercropolis]

Probably not. At least not without wank materials to keep it from breaking and wank star-drives to import material from other solar systems. A dyson Sphere or ringworld could feasiblky be made with what's floating in a system, but not something that big.

No, its not even close to a Dyson sphere taken to the logical extreme. Taken to the extreme involves building it around a decent chunk of the galaxy. For more info see Larry Niven's Essay, "Bigger than Worlds" in which he covers space habbitats from a hollowed out asteroid to his famous ringworld up to the aforementioned galactic dyson sphere.

I have read Nivens work. Most of his work in fact.

Niven is possibly the best hard sci-fi writer. His short stories are espeically good.