[Discussion] Clarification On Participation In Report Thread

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I'm curious regarding this matter, as I've been reported in the past for violations, and have defended myself in the report threads, as we've been informed is allowable. However, I'm seeing an inconsistency today, and I'd like to know if we are no longer allowed to defend ourselves.

Orson Empire was reported for flaming with the following post:

You disgust me.

Granted, the subject and what I was discussing wasn't exactly the happiest topic full of smiles and sunshine, but this still seems like an example of flaming according to the One Stop Rules Shop, as it attacks the poster, not the argument.

Orson Empire responded with the following

Granted, the subject and what I was discussing wasn't exactly the happiest topic full of smiles and sunshine, but this still seems like an example of flaming according to the One Stop Rules Shop, as it attacks the poster, not the argument.

This is not a flame. This isn't even an insult.

Here's where it gets confusing for me. Fris responded with this:

This is not a flame. This isn't even an insult.

Did someone make you a mod when I wasn't looking? No? Then it's not your call, even if you did post it.

I was going to say it's too mild to be actionable, but your response changed my mind. It IS an insult. It IS a mild flame.

*** Warned for flaming ***

It seemed to me that Orson Empire (and I should note for the record that I have no serious connection with this player, the few times we've interacted being somewhat rancorous, if I recall correctly) was simply stating that he did not see what he had said as a flame, which to me would seem a defense, albeit something of a weak one. However, due to this statement, Fris stated that...he? She? He or she would be implementing a warning that otherwise would not have been issued due to the mildness of the offense.

I'm obviously not appealing this, as it isn't my place to do so, and have no stake or emotional investment in the number, severity, or type of warnings received by Orson Empire. I don't especially care one way or the other if the player ends up DEATed in the long run. However, for my own sake when responding to potential reports about me, I would like to know whether or not reported players can respond to said reports without running the risk of punishment.

[NERVUN]

I can't speak for Fris in terms of his thought process for this one, but obviously you can defend yourself in report threads. That said, I guess the best way to put it is that anything you say may be used against you.

I.e. (and not speaking to this particular event) if a person is accused of flaming and comes into the report thread and during his defence he flames... That's warnable, even if it was done during a defence. The same might happen if during a defence a person gives cause to the Mods that pushes us in one way or the other in terms of a ruling. If we're on the fence either or say and during the defence, the accused poster really goes at it, that might nudge our view of the intent over.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I can't speak for Fris in terms of his thought process for this one, but obviously you can defend yourself in report threads. That said, I guess the best way to put it is that anything you say may be used against you.

I.e. (and not speaking to this particular event) if a person is accused of flaming and comes into the report thread and during his defence he flames... That's warnable, even if it was done during a defence. The same might happen if during a defence a person gives cause to the Mods that pushes us in one way or the other in terms of a ruling. If we're on the fence either or say and during the defence, the accused poster really goes at it, that might nudge our view of the intent over.

I do understand what you're saying, but...I mean, saying "That wasn't a flame. It wasn't even an insult." in this case seems the most basic sort of defense, which is why I was confused by the ruling.

[NERVUN]

I can't speak for Fris in terms of his thought process for this one, but obviously you can defend yourself in report threads. That said, I guess the best way to put it is that anything you say may be used against you.

I.e. (and not speaking to this particular event) if a person is accused of flaming and comes into the report thread and during his defence he flames... That's warnable, even if it was done during a defence. The same might happen if during a defence a person gives cause to the Mods that pushes us in one way or the other in terms of a ruling. If we're on the fence either or say and during the defence, the accused poster really goes at it, that might nudge our view of the intent over.

I do understand what you're saying, but...I mean, saying "That wasn't a flame. It wasn't even an insult." in this case seems the most basic sort of defense, which is why I was confused by the ruling.

Like I said, I cannot speak to that as I'm not Fris and I'm not even gonna begin to start to stick words into his mouth (he bites). I'll give him a nudge and see if he has time to wander by and put in a few words about the specific, I was just answering in the general.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

I do understand what you're saying, but...I mean, saying "That wasn't a flame. It wasn't even an insult." in this case seems the most basic sort of defense, which is why I was confused by the ruling.

Like I said, I cannot speak to that as I'm not Fris and I'm not even gonna begin to start to stick words into his mouth (he bites). I'll give him a nudge and see if he has time to wander by and put in a few words about the specific, I was just answering in the general.

Oh, totally understood, and I certainly appreciate the input. Thank you.

[The 54th Squadron]

To me, Fris was pissed off before posting that. From how I'm reading the post, it seemed like Fris intentionally gave Orson the warning instead of just merely reading it and saying it's not actionable. I think on top of that he believed Orson's defense added in to the report, because Fris believed he was attempting to self-mod his accusation, which doesn't seem like it from my PoV.

[Bezombia]

Upon first seeing this I thought that Fris didn't realize that the poster who said "That isn't an insult" was the same poster being reported.


But it's obvious that they did. Now I'm completely baffled. This doesn't even make any sense.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

To me, Fris was pissed off before posting that. From how I'm reading the post, it seemed like Fris intentionally gave Orson the warning instead of just merely reading it and saying it's not actionable. I think on top of that he believed Orson's defense added in to the report, because Fris believed he was attempting to self-mod his accusation, which doesn't seem like it from my PoV.

Perhaps. However, this isn't so much about this specific case as it is the limits of one's ability to defend oneself against moderation reports.

[Esternial]

I do understand what you're saying, but...I mean, saying "That wasn't a flame. It wasn't even an insult." in this case seems the most basic sort of defense, which is why I was confused by the ruling.

Like I said, I cannot speak to that as I'm not Fris and I'm not even gonna begin to start to stick words into his mouth (he bites). I'll give him a nudge and see if he has time to wander by and put in a few words about the specific, I was just answering in the general.

Given what he have available now, though, what are you thoughts?

Not as a Mod, but as a normal human being on the internet reading that Moderation report.

[Katganistan]

Exactly so. The topic is, "Can we defend ourselves in a report thread when we have been reported?"

[Esternial]

Exactly so. The topic is, "Can we defend ourselves in a report thread when we have been reported?"

([url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Katganistan/NS%20forum%20macros/ccb7fb1d-c690-43a5-b90b-b4df3ef12ac4_zpscc6072a8.jpg]Image)[/url]

Yes, and we're bringing up a case that caused the confusion, for which we want some answers.

Now that you're here, though, could you give us your thought on the source of our confusion? I'm sorry, but how does reciting current policy while having a report that clearly contradicts said policy help anyone? If we can all take a moment to think logically, the obvious course of action would be to delve into the seemingly errant report to get some answers.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Exactly so. The topic is, "Can we defend ourselves in a report thread when we have been reported?"

([url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v260/Katganistan/NS%20forum%20macros/ccb7fb1d-c690-43a5-b90b-b4df3ef12ac4_zpscc6072a8.jpg]Image)[/url]

Well, if I may, it's also "What are the limits of said defense?" I mean, flaming IN the report thread is obviously unallowable (not to mention idiotic), but if I, for instance, say, "I'm horrified that you think [x], and horrified by you if you mean it" and legitimately don't see it as a flame, can I respond to it being reported with "That's not a flame"? I mean, I get it if a moderator disagrees, but I'm a bit concerned over the possibility of increased penalties over what is essentially a difference of opinion.

[The Orson Empire]

Well, I didn't necessarily mean to cause a fiasco over this, but I think Fris just thought I was trying to act like a moderator.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Well, I didn't necessarily mean to cause a fiasco over this, but I think Fris just thought I was trying to act like a moderator.

That's it, though. Where is the line between expressing your own opinion on the nature of a post that you made (After all, who would know better than you?) and acting like a moderator? I'm not asking for you in particular, though your warning was what caused my confusion, but rather for myself and others on this site who might be hesitant to defend ourselves in the future for fear of increased penalties, or the imposition of penalties where there would have previously been none.

[The Orson Empire]

Well, I didn't necessarily mean to cause a fiasco over this, but I think Fris just thought I was trying to act like a moderator.

That's it, though. Where is the line between expressing your own opinion on the nature of a post that you made (After all, who would know better than you?) and acting like a moderator? I'm not asking for you in particular, though your warning was what caused my confusion, but rather for myself and others on this site who might be hesitant to defend ourselves in the future for fear of increased penalties, or the imposition of penalties where there would have previously been none.

I see the concern.

I considered asking for a second opinion, but I feel it would do no good.

[The Floating Island of the Sleeping God]

Well, I didn't necessarily mean to cause a fiasco over this, but I think Fris just thought I was trying to act like a moderator.

That's it, though. Where is the line between expressing your own opinion on the nature of a post that you made (After all, who would know better than you?) and acting like a moderator? I'm not asking for you in particular, though your warning was what caused my confusion, but rather for myself and others on this site who might be hesitant to defend ourselves in the future for fear of increased penalties, or the imposition of penalties where there would have previously been none.

I think it was a matter of phrasing. If he had said "in my defense, I didn't intend that as a flame or insult. I was, in fact, physically disgusted by the kind of person who would say X..." Then it wouldn't have been seen as playing the moderator. The phrasing implied that he had the authority to say whether his statement constituted a flame or not.

[Bezombia]

That's it, though. Where is the line between expressing your own opinion on the nature of a post that you made (After all, who would know better than you?) and acting like a moderator? I'm not asking for you in particular, though your warning was what caused my confusion, but rather for myself and others on this site who might be hesitant to defend ourselves in the future for fear of increased penalties, or the imposition of penalties where there would have previously been none.

I see the concern.

I considered asking for a second opinion, but I feel it would do no good.

This is just my opinion, but you should.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

That's it, though. Where is the line between expressing your own opinion on the nature of a post that you made (After all, who would know better than you?) and acting like a moderator? I'm not asking for you in particular, though your warning was what caused my confusion, but rather for myself and others on this site who might be hesitant to defend ourselves in the future for fear of increased penalties, or the imposition of penalties where there would have previously been none.

I think it was a matter of phrasing. If he had said "in my defense, I didn't intend that as a flame or insult. I was, in fact, physically disgusted by the kind of person who would say X..." Then it wouldn't have been seen as playing the moderator. The phrasing implied that he had the authority to say whether his statement constituted a flame or not.

That seems an awfully fine line. I mean, he didn't state that it was a definitive ruling, and when I read it, my impression was "He doesn't see it that way", not "He's making a ruling". It came across as an opinion. Now, if he'd been a third party popping into the thread, I could totally see a spam warning or something, but I'm pretty sure that I've seen people defend themselves in this manner before.

[The Orson Empire]

I see the concern.

I considered asking for a second opinion, but I feel it would do no good.

This is just my opinion, but you should.

You know, I think I will reconsider this.

[The 54th Squadron]

I see the concern.

I considered asking for a second opinion, but I feel it would do no good.

This is just my opinion, but you should.

Yep, do it. Since Fris already handed the ruling, he has to call another mod to look at it and discuss it.

[Torisakia]

Eh, I've established a logical statement about Report threads: If it has [REPORT] in it, don't post in it, even if it's a report about you."

Then again, I haven't been reported since the [REPORT] tags were mandatory. So I can talk for anyone else.

[Yumyumsuppertime]

Eh, I've established a logical statement about Report threads: If it has [REPORT} in it, don't post in it, even if it's a report about you."

Then again, I haven't been reported since the [REPORT] tags were mandatory. So I can talk for anyone else.

The point is, that WAS a report about him.

[Bezombia]

Eh, I've established a logical statement about Report threads: If it has [REPORT} in it, don't post in it, even if it's a report about you."

Then again, I haven't been reported since the [REPORT] tags were mandatory. So I can talk for anyone else.

At that point it isn't even worth having a moderation forum. Just move everything over to GHRs, it's the same thing.

[Torisakia]

Eh, I've established a logical statement about Report threads: If it has [REPORT} in it, don't post in it, even if it's a report about you."

Then again, I haven't been reported since the [REPORT] tags were mandatory. So I can talk for anyone else.

The point is, that WAS a report about him.

I know, but like I said, I can't speak for anyone else. I will say that it does look like Orson Empire was defending himself, rather than ruling on it.

[NERVUN]

Like I said, I cannot speak to that as I'm not Fris and I'm not even gonna begin to start to stick words into his mouth (he bites). I'll give him a nudge and see if he has time to wander by and put in a few words about the specific, I was just answering in the general.

Given what he have available now, though, what are you thoughts?

Not as a Mod, but as a normal human being on the internet reading that Moderation report.

Not enough information to go on.

Seriously, I refuse to speculate here because I don't know and I'm not gonna get off topic.

Kat has more pictures.