The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, version II)

[Mytannion]

Making public the contents of a TG or a private IRC message without consent is EXTREMELY bad form.

If you don't want the contents of a TG made public, you should probably state this - if you didn't do that, you shouldn't have said something like that. I point you towards WikiLeaks and things like that, if you don't want something talked of in public, don't say it.

You saying that about another user is extremely bad form, even if you have had previous with them.

[Bears Armed]

Re the scale of randomness this time around, just look at the playoffs: 4 went to extra time (and 2 of those then went on through to penalties), and 3 others were reasonably close, but then 3 were absolute 'steamroller' jobs... How many of you would regard that mixture as falling within your expectations for that stage?

[Delaclava]

First Star, maybe Kry...now me, actually.

I'd made the decision that this was the right thing to do for a while now (which is actually why I scaled back my commitment a lot) but for my own good and for what I want to accomplish I can't just hang around anymore, I really have to leave. For most of you, I've enjoyed working with you - hosting, roleplaying, discussing. For some, I know I've argued with you in the past (and for a few many, MANY times), but as a whole I respect everyone that I've come across in the past 2 1/2 years.

Best of luck.

[The Archregimancy]

But I'm done now. I won't bring this up again and the fact of the matter is that Sarzoclava qualified and there's nothing that can be done at this point. It just shattered my confidence in this WCs hosts and I won't be supporting them in future endeavors. Hosts shouldn't be selected because they're the only ones that can host, but are capable of hosting.

You are behaving exceptionally badly.

The extent of what appear from all available evidence to be baseless and unsubstantiated claims of host bias that appear unique to yourself are essentially unprecedented in recent World Cup history. In an ideal world, perhaps Caf would have scorinated all of Sarzoclava's matches, but this wasn't logistically possible, and K-P's evidence demonstrates that there was no functional difference in Sarzoclava's performance regardless of which host was scorinating. If there was a conspiracy, both hosts must have been in on it, and from what I know of both hosts over the last few years, this is inconceivable; Caf is one of the most highly respected NSSports hosts across multiple events - and the current WCC president. Neither your results nor Sarzoclava's results are anywhere close to unprecedented in recent WC history.

Your revealing the content of private TGs - which add nothing substantive to the discussion - is likewise poor form.

Whatever my concerns about how the scorinator operates - which isn't the hosts' fault anyway - the organisation of this cup has been essentially faultless.

[Rhodesiah]

I'm just amazed at a mod's Nelsonian knowledge. Of all people I'd expect a mod to see things from both perspectives, but that doesn't appear to be so. It doesn't matter if you've been a player on NS for 7 years or 7 days, there's no reason for you to have such a one-sided argument. You say there's no evidence? Look at the TG content, scores and what's been going on for the last 3 pages.

Insult to injury is that this World Cup is the final nail in the coffin for some of NS Sport's largest contributors. So congrats to all those involved.

[The Kytler Peninsulae]

It is deeply unfortunate that Sarzoclava qualified; it has cast question marks over hosts who have provided an utterly glitch-free organisation of an enormous quailfying stage.

Yes, it looks wrong. But coincidences and unlikely happenings will always occur in twenty qualifying groups when the scorinator is tuned for unpredictability. And if it wasn't, Chetkosk could never have channeled their RPing into two stunning qualifying campaigns, Vilita wouldn't have come close to converting a zero rank into a serious qualifying run, etc etc. Yes, Rhodesiah feels as though he could have done the same. Yes, his group has featured a puppet of a co-host qualifying.

Some of us remember the days when hosts ranked well outside the top 10 reached the WC final, two Cups in a row. Not many - it was WC9 and WC10. I was on the receiving end of both of those teams in being eliminated in the group stage each time. Did I complain? I did express my doubts, but I don't think I was close to being this aggressive about it.

I'd have expected Bostopia to be leading the charge if anything - perhaps he would have done if he'd lost his playoff. However, actually I think he'd have been ICly aggressive (and it'd fit his nation...) instead of OOCly attacking the hosts. That's where Rhodesiah has been in the wrong. In expressing concern at Sarzoclava's success, he was at least advancing a reasonable argument, one that I tested against the facts. The way he did it, though, has only made things worse.

I didn't ever expect to side with Sarzonia in an argument on this. I just have.

[Sargossa]

I'm just amazed at a mod's Nelsonian knowledge. Of all people I'd expect a mod to see things from both perspectives, but that doesn't appear to be so. It doesn't matter if you've been a player on NS for 7 years or 7 days, there's no reason for you to have such a one-sided argument. You say there's no evidence? Look at the TG content, scores and what's been going on for the last 3 pages.

Insult to injury is that this World Cup is the final nail in the coffin for some of NS Sport's largest contributors. So congrats to all those involved.

I'm just amazed you consider anything you posted as actual evidence.

A non-rping (and fairly high ranked) team did well in a game involving random numbers. Stop the presses. It's happened before. It'll happen again. World #268 Skalholt also did rather well in your group. That a conspiracy too?

[Rhodesiah]

I'm just amazed at a mod's Nelsonian knowledge. Of all people I'd expect a mod to see things from both perspectives, but that doesn't appear to be so. It doesn't matter if you've been a player on NS for 7 years or 7 days, there's no reason for you to have such a one-sided argument. You say there's no evidence? Look at the TG content, scores and what's been going on for the last 3 pages.

Insult to injury is that this World Cup is the final nail in the coffin for some of NS Sport's largest contributors. So congrats to all those involved.

I'm just amazed you consider anything you posted as actual evidence.

A non-rping (and fairly high ranked) team did well in a game involving random numbers. Stop the presses. It's happened before. It'll happen again. World #268 Skalholt also did rather well in your group. That a conspiracy too?

Skalholt CTE before the draw was even made, and it was addressed. The TGs I got from Sarzonia regarding that were less than friendly, but I won't bring that up.

And what evidence more than that presented would anyone have? Would they get on to Sarz's computer and check the scorination processes themselves? 100% evidence is impossible unless a host wants to commit social suicide on here and admit they rigged. So go right ahead and keep saying "you don't have evidence", what's been put forth has been the extent of what anyone can provide.

[The Kytler Peninsulae]

This is where Rhodesiah has more of a point - tangible evidence either way is never going to be clear. If someone wanted to manipulate the results in this way, they'd find it pretty easy to cover their tracks, so all we can go by is the trustworthiness of the hosts, and a closer look at the scores. In each case, that bolsters the case for the hosts' defense in this particular instance. On a more broad scale, though, I do take the point.

[Sargossa]

And what evidence more than that presented would anyone have? Would they get on to Sarz's computer and check the scorination processes themselves? 100% evidence is impossible unless a host wants to commit social suicide on here and admit they rigged. So go right ahead and keep saying "you don't have evidence", what's been put forth has been the extent of what anyone can provide.

I also take your point on this one. So i'll remove myself from the hamster wheel...

[Kagdazka and Pazhujebu]

"Disallowing" hosts who are willing to scorinate friendlies from doing so is a horrible idea and one I will never support.

Actually, I agree. It's a 'sledgehammer to kill a fly,' if you will; and I'd understand completely if people shoot me down here. However:

My point is that scorinating friendlies isn't required of hosts and never really has been. The only sense of "requirement" that hosts have is the fact that friendlies remain highly popular among the rest of the players who don't host. Valanora and other hosts may want to decline to host ANY friendlies, but if another bidder is willing to scorinate them, it may be a deciding factor for some voters.

This is argument I would use, verbatim, to defend why we need to pass my amendment. As long as we have a system that fails to legislate or limit friendly responsibilities for hosts, this whole thing will become a wedge issue used to evaluate one bid over another, which is an unfair and unnecessary distraction from the ways that bids should be evaluated (such as scorinator selection, for example).

That's the only "requirement" for hosting friendlies that exists, and you can't legislate what the voters want.

Actually, there is one group that can in fact 'legislate what the voters want': voters themselves. Therefore, I resubmit this proposal, worded by Vilita much more elegantly than I was able to.

Constitutional Amendment Proposal

Cohosts of the World Cup are required to facilitate the scorination of matches involving the Qualifying stages and of the Final stages of competition. Co-hosts may not include as part of their proposal, or actively participate in the organization or scorination of any additional matches, be them "friendlies", "Mini-Cups" or other non Qualifying or Finals related matches as an official part of the World Cup they are hosting.

If Sarzonia or anyone else has a better idea that actually will address 'the friendly problem,' rather than maintain or defend the status quo, I honestly, honestly would love to hear it.

[The Archregimancy]

I'm just amazed at a mod's Nelsonian knowledge. Of all people I'd expect a mod to see things from both perspectives, but that doesn't appear to be so. It doesn't matter if you've been a player on NS for 7 years or 7 days, there's no reason for you to have such a one-sided argument. You say there's no evidence? Look at the TG content, scores and what's been going on for the last 3 pages.

Insult to injury is that this World Cup is the final nail in the coffin for some of NS Sport's largest contributors. So congrats to all those involved.

I would also expect a mod to be able to make a judgement on the balance of evidence.

The balance of evidence suggests that the hosts have done nothing wrong.

The balance of evidence suggests that you are behaving like an appallingly poor loser who is incapable of letting this go.

If you're seriously suggesting that Cafundeu of all people has conspired against you to benefit his co-host's puppet - which is essentially what you're implying - then you need to take a long, serious look at your attitude.

If, however, you have a complaint about site moderation or moderator impartiality, I suggest you file a Getting Help Request.

The TGs I got from Sarzonia regarding that were less than friendly, but I won't bring that up.

But you just did bring it up, didn't you?


I would strongly suggest that you take a deep breath and temporarily step away from the WCDT before you say or do anything that would irreparably damage your reputation here, as opposed to merely temporarily damage your reputation.

[Eastfield Lodge]

Constitutional Amendment Proposal

Cohosts of the World Cup are required to facilitate the scorination of matches involving the Qualifying stages and of the Final stages of competition. Co-hosts may not include as part of their proposal, or actively participate in the organization or scorination of any additional matches, be them "friendlies", "Mini-Cups" or other non Qualifying or Finals related matches as an official part of the World Cup they are hosting.

How about constitutionally set it as a maximum one per slot (which cups fill up)? Then you have less workload for the hosts, but still have friendlies for those who really want them. You even could set it that first time nations aren't allowed to have friendlies.

[The Kytler Peninsulae]

I personally like the one-per-slot idea. It establishes the principle as just that - a slot. Sort of like how there are specific "international weekends" on the RL football calendar.

Relatedly, I'd also have no problem with teams sharing common bye days playing friendlies against each other if they so wished. Same principle. Teams do that IRL when they have qualifying bye days (e.g. this very weekend, teams not involved in Euro 2012 playoffs are playing international matches against each other).

[Astograth]

I really don't want to bring this back up, but at Rhodesiah's request I will.

I've spoken with her regarding the Sarzoclava scorination issue, and though I don't support her claims I believe she can be forgiven for her attitude on the basis that she is, after all, new to the community. I, at least, can see where she's coming from, with no prior knowledge of hosting or people's perceptions towards it, when suspicions arise and they are met perhaps overly defensively by the host, which naturally bolsters them. I know I'm sounding an awful lot like her attorney, and I don't condone what she's said, but I think it's in the best interest of all parties involved to put this to rest. The Qualifiers are over and Rhodesiah assures me she knows better now and hopes she can regain the community's respect.

Again, I don't at all believe the hosts have fixed results, the exact reasons of which I don't think are fit to disclose here. And I may not be the most respected or experienced person here either, but bringing about closure on this issue is, I think, worthwhile.

[Mangolana]

First Star, maybe Kry...now me, actually.

I'd made the decision that this was the right thing to do for a while now (which is actually why I scaled back my commitment a lot) but for my own good and for what I want to accomplish I can't just hang around anymore, I really have to leave. For most of you, I've enjoyed working with you - hosting, roleplaying, discussing. For some, I know I've argued with you in the past (and for a few many, MANY times), but as a whole I respect everyone that I've come across in the past 2 1/2 years.

Best of luck.

Bye Del, I would like to thankyou and Star for your comtributions here, and let both of you know that we will miss you

[Krytenia]

I'm just amazed you consider anything you posted as actual evidence.

A non-rping (and fairly high ranked) team did well in a game involving random numbers. Stop the presses. It's happened before. It'll happen again. World #268 Skalholt also did rather well in your group. That a conspiracy too?

Skalholt CTE before the draw was even made, and it was addressed. The TGs I got from Sarzonia regarding that were less than friendly, but I won't bring that up.

And what evidence more than that presented would anyone have? Would they get on to Sarz's computer and check the scorination processes themselves? 100% evidence is impossible unless a host wants to commit social suicide on here and admit they rigged. So go right ahead and keep saying "you don't have evidence", what's been put forth has been the extent of what anyone can provide.

Give me a few minutes; I'm sure a similar thing happened to the same nation in WC56.

1 Sarzoclava 14 8 4 2 19 11 +8 28
2 Churchma 14 7 3 4 18 12 +6 24
3 Kulverint 14 7 3 4 16 12 +4 24
4 Swartaz 14 7 2 5 22 21 +1 23
5 Octinstine 14 6 3 5 23 18 +5 21
6 Nitrome Island 14 6 1 7 20 17 +3 19
7 Nothan 14 2 4 8 9 22 −13 10
8 Ma Raque 14 1 4 9 8 22 −14 7

Yes, that's the WC56 quali tables. Sarzoclava were ranked 166. They posted a minimal roster near the end of qualis, and RPed precisely once - AFTER the end of qualification.

You want to call host bias? Call it against Sorthern Northland and Valanora too.

[Kalumba]

quote]

No - absolutely not.

There are any number of reasons why participants may be temporarily unable to RP. Over the last 6 years I've gone through phases of relative inactivity brought about by such RL factors as moving from Australia to the UK and writing an undergraduate textbook; currently, starting a new job and having a heavy lecture load has, in combination with my moderator duties, led to my RP'ing less in this specific cup(particularly with the Holy Empire). But I would hope that it's abundantly clear that this isn't out of a lack of desire or interest;

I am not inherently against the increased emphasis on RP that's crept in over the last 10 cups or so, but to punish people for being unable to RP wouldn't just be a foolish overreaction, but also, I regret having to say, completely misses the point of the substantive discussions we're actually having.

Like it has already been said; i have seen the flaws with my suggestion, so there was no need to bring it up again be so downright rude, at least Jeruselem kindly pointed out the flaws and showed me how i was wrong.

And so sorry for interrupting you, it's just i was lead to believe this was a public forum where anyone could bring up an idea and attempt to contribute. But evidently not. So sorry oh great one, a thousand apologies for trespassing on your private property.

[Krytenia]

Like it has already been said; i have seen the flaws with my suggestion, so there was no need to bring it up again be so downright rude, at least Jeruselem kindly pointed out the flaws and showed me how i was wrong.

And so sorry for interrupting you, it's just i was lead to believe this was a public forum where anyone could bring up an idea and attempt to contribute. But evidently not. So sorry oh great one, a thousand apologies for trespassing on your private property.

It's a personal account of why he's against it. It's well thought out, well presented, and polite. You are out of line on this one Kalumba; please be kind enough to retract the above.

[Kalumba]

It's a personal account of why he's against it. It's well thought out, well presented, and polite. You are out of line on this one Kalumba; please be kind enough to retract the above.

I have no problem with his personal account, to go and say i missed the point and ruined a productive discussion is, in my mind anyway, very rude.

This is why i have refrained from posting here before when i have had a suggestion, for the fear someone will shoot it down, in all likelihoods because it was a poor suggestion, in a manner such as this. I have no problem with someone pointing out why it is wrong and explaining to me why, like Jeruselem did, but to be talked to in such a frank and rude manner does little to encourage me to try and contribute again.

I will not retract it because it is how i feel, if it is out of line so be it, but i want my feelings on the elitism i feel persists here to be known and public.

[Brendino the 3rd]

Sorry, but where can I see the updated rankings?

viewtopic.php?p=7610547#p7610547


Its a few pages back.

Thanks Arcatea

[Sarzonia]

If you don't want the contents of a TG made public, you should probably state this - if you didn't do that, you shouldn't have said something like that. I point you towards WikiLeaks and things like that, if you don't want something talked of in public, don't say it.

You have A LOT to learn about Internet etiquette.

Relatedly, I'd also have no problem with teams sharing common bye days playing friendlies against each other if they so wished. Same principle. Teams do that IRL when they have qualifying bye days (e.g. this very weekend, teams not involved in Euro 2012 playoffs are playing international matches against each other).

As long as the common bye day friendlies are NOT host-scorinated, I'm fine with it.

I also would be willing to scale back to ONE host-scorinated friendly per slot. It would allow me to keep the MSMT if I don't choose to separate it from the World Cup, which is a distinct possibility now that I'm in the process of getting a World Cup under my belt.

If other players prefer that we keep the status quo, cast your votes that way. Just don't try to propose forbidding hosts who may be willing to scorinate friendlies from doing so if they really are willing to put in the extra work.

Kalumba, there is a line between expressing your disagreement with someone, or your disappointment with the way he or she has stated an opinion and name calling in a prattish, whingy fashion. You crossed it. End of. I agree with you that there's way too much elitism here in the NSWC. I've spent years trying to fight it. But there's a right way and a wrong way to fight it. You chose the wrong way.

Del, more than anyone else here in the NSWC, you have become one of my closest friends. Obviously beyond an extremely close allegiance between nations, it's grown into a terrific OOC friendship I very much treasure. I admire your spirit and your willingness to help; not to mention the many contributions you have made to NS. I also deeply appreciate your willingness to jump in and help whenever I've asked, or even when I haven't asked. I'll be very sorry to see you leave.

Krytenia, I know the IC rivalry between your nation and mine doesn't have the same cachét as the one between you and Star, but we definitely have built a long history in the matches our nations have played. Your contributions to NS have been valuable as well, and your spirit will be missed.

Starblaydia, I know you and I have had major differences of late, and I realise it's gotten to the point that we don't even like each other. That's probably the one thing I truly regret about everything that's happened since I returned. You have made some great contributions to NS in your time here. Those will live on after your time in the NSWC has ended.

I won't say I'll be next out the door because I don't want to post a "I'm leaving" post. But my enthusiasm for this game within a game has been greatly diminished once again. It's not just the situation with Rhodesiah, but it's a combination of events and personality conflicts that detracts from the fun that creating storylines and characters in this game within a game.

Yes, the NSWC will soldier on with or without the people who are leaving. But we all will be the poorer for it.

[Jeruselem]

The soul of the NSWC will be dimished if we lose too many "old timers".

[Vilita]

Everyone is quitting when I showed back up :-)

[Jeruselem]

We have kinda expect these questions from newer players. They haven't experienced 40+ cups like some of us or fought some of the old battles of the past. Us older players might seen elitist but we know a lot more about this cup than newcomers and some problems we see are just part of the fabric of the system.

I've never won a cup but I'm not giving up.