by Petty Bourgeoise Restoration » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:52 pm
by Forster Keys » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:55 pm
Petty Bourgeoise Restoration wrote:Members of this forum go on ad nauseum about how true communism has never existed, and cannot be critiqued using historical evidence.
By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?
Mussolini & Hitler each clearly deviated from their ideology. Mussolini never embraced corporatism and assigned laborers & managers separate but equal councils to arrange the economy. Rather, he caved to crony capitalism.
Hitler also failed to enact the nationalizaions and redistributions of means of production advocated by people like the Strasser brothers, and also caved to big business.
Is it really fair to badmouth fascism & national socialism given that the two countries championing them never actually carried them out?
by Raw Nation » Sun Oct 30, 2011 11:56 pm
by The Floridian Coast » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:01 am
by Anthoniland » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:18 am
by Platonic Dreams » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:22 am
Petty Bourgeoise Restoration wrote:By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?
by Rumbria » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:24 am
The Floridian Coast wrote:Implying that fascism minus racism would be appealing is like saying drinking piss is good as long as there's no arsenic mixed in.
by New Illuve » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:28 am
by Permutatia » Mon Oct 31, 2011 2:29 am
by GreaterPacificNations » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:00 am
by Moral Libertarians » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:18 am
Permutatia wrote:Mussolini didn't even have a real ideology in the first place. He was nothing but a hardcore Machiavellian manipulator. For example, he started as a militant atheist, later he put god in every single speech he made. Fascism is the pure manifestation of the immoral, cynical and sociopathic want of personal power above other people. I wouldn't call it an ideology, it's a political manifestation of a mental degeneration.
Terra Agora wrote:A state, no matter how small, is not liberty. Taxes are not liberty, government courts are not liberty, government police are not liberty. Anarchy is liberty and anarchy is order.
by Risottia » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:23 am
Petty Bourgeoise Restoration wrote:Members of this forum go on ad nauseumam about how true communism has never existed, and cannot be critiqued using historical evidence.
By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?
by Risottia » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:26 am
Anthoniland wrote:Well yea it is fair to bad mouth Fascism because of the lack of human rights and the ultra-nationalist parts of it's ideology. National Socialism is even worse since it is racist.
by The Congregationists » Mon Oct 31, 2011 5:15 am
New Illuve wrote:Not to mention that there are people that get a sexual thrill out of urine...
by Ceannairceach » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:31 am
Permutatia wrote:Mussolini didn't even have a real ideology in the first place. He was nothing but a hardcore Machiavellian manipulator. For example, he started as a militant atheist, later he put god in every single speech he made. Fascism is the pure manifestation of the immoral, cynical and sociopathic want of personal power above other people. I wouldn't call it an ideology, it's a political manifestation of a mental degeneration.
by Misterfisher minions » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:48 am
Petty Bourgeoise Restoration wrote:Members of this forum go on ad nauseum about how true communism has never existed, and cannot be critiqued using historical evidence.
By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?
Mussolini & Hitler each clearly deviated from their ideology. Mussolini never embraced corporatism and assigned laborers & managers separate but equal councils to arrange the economy. Rather, he caved to crony capitalism.
Hitler also failed to enact the nationalizaions and redistributions of means of production advocated by people like the Strasser brothers, and also caved to big business.
Is it really fair to badmouth fascism & national socialism given that the two countries championing them never actually carried them out?
by Malgrave » Mon Oct 31, 2011 6:58 am
Misterfisher minions wrote:Petty Bourgeoise Restoration wrote:Members of this forum go on ad nauseum about how true communism has never existed, and cannot be critiqued using historical evidence.
By the same idea, couldn't one argue that true fascism and national socialism have never existed?
Mussolini & Hitler each clearly deviated from their ideology. Mussolini never embraced corporatism and assigned laborers & managers separate but equal councils to arrange the economy. Rather, he caved to crony capitalism.
Hitler also failed to enact the nationalizaions and redistributions of means of production advocated by people like the Strasser brothers, and also caved to big business.
Is it really fair to badmouth fascism & national socialism given that the two countries championing them never actually carried them out?
Hitler and Mussolini nationalized their economies, it was state planism, not capitalism at all.
Think hard about why Hitler called his Party National-Socialist: http://mises.org/daily/1937
Also Mussolini began his political activity as a socialist: http://jonjayray.tripod.com/musso.html
Frenequesta wrote:Well-dressed mad scientists with an edge.
by Risottia » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:07 am
Misterfisher minions wrote:Hitler and Mussolini nationalized their economies
by Misterfisher minions » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:09 am
Malgrave wrote:
Germany was highly leftist at the time. It made sense for Hitler to put socialist in his name to trick a few voters.
by Misterfisher minions » Mon Oct 31, 2011 7:13 am
Risottia wrote:
Yes, I'm sure that Krupp and Agnelli supported Hitler and Mussolini EXACTLY because they nationalized their industries.
Oh wait, no, they didn't.
by Alaje » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:11 am
by Petty Bourgeoise Restoration » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:16 am
Malgrave wrote:
Germany was highly leftist at the time. It made sense for Hitler to put socialist in his name to trick a few voters.
by Misterfisher minions » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:16 am
Alaje wrote:In Fascism, the economy was supposed to be between nationalization and outright private ownership. The company owners, such as the Krupps in Germany you've metioned, maintained private control of their holdings, but the government tells them what it needs and subsidizes them. So it was pretty much a system of Dirigism, the Fascist states did alot of nationalization though.
Also, yes Fascism, in my opinion, is very closely related to Socialism. Look into the history of the national syndicalist organization Action Française, it is concidered proto-fascist by alot of people.
by Trotskylvania » Mon Oct 31, 2011 8:20 am
Misterfisher minions wrote:Risottia wrote:
Yes, I'm sure that Krupp and Agnelli supported Hitler and Mussolini EXACTLY because they nationalized their industries.
Oh wait, no, they didn't.
I mean, they didn't killed the private property, but that was the only part of the socialist agenda they did NOT use as an official policy.
Krupp and Agnelli supported those two totalitarian fucks because they feared communism and were not smart enough to understand and defend the free market system which was allowing them to succeed. to them.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in PosadismKarl Marx, Wage Labour and Capital
Anton Pannekoek, World Revolution and Communist Tactics
Amadeo Bordiga, Dialogue With Stalin
Nikolai Bukharin, The ABC of Communism
Gilles Dauvé, When Insurrections Die"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga
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