Some questions about recruitment tgs

[Unibot II]

A Few Questions...

(1.a) Would it be legal for a feeder recruitment telegram for a defender organization to promote its member regions with a short section of the telegram saying something along the lines of, "You may also be interested in some of our affilated regions: Eastern Islands of Dharma, Unibots Ego, ect.". Keeping in mind that such affiliated regions may also be conducting their own recruitment campaigns at the same time with their own telegram message (obviously their telegram would be specifically addressing their regions).

If this is not legal, would this be legal?

(1.b) Would it be legal for a feeder recruitment telegram for a defender organization to promote its member regions with a short section of the telegram saying something along the lines of, "You may also be interested in some of our affiliated regions, which are described here: http://www.unibot.com". The link would bring users to a forum post elsewhere with a descriptive advert for the defender organization's member regions.

And lastly...

(2) Would it be legal for a defender organization to run a recruitment telegram campaign in a UCR, if the UCR agrees to the campaign via a gameplay treaty? Whose permission would be needed for this to be allowed (especially in founderless regions)? Would this allowance have to be made clear in the WFE?

Thanks!

[Crazy girl]

After talking to some other mods, I'm afraid that's no to all. The first two are obvious, I think. You can only send a nation one recruitment telegram for your region, and yours would essentially be a recruitment telegram for those regions when worded that way.

As for your last question, founders/delegates can only opt their region in for RMB ads. As it says in the OSRS, only nations in GCRs may be telegrammed recruitment ads.

[Tsaraine]

To clarify on #3: While the Founder or Delegate controls the RMB, s/he doesn't control his members' inboxes. For this to be legal, nations in UCRs would have to sign up for recruitment telegrams individually, which kinda defeats the purpose.

We are however considering possible overhauls to the recruitment process, which would solve this and other problems through the magic of improved user interfaceness.

[Unibot II]

We are however considering possible overhauls to the recruitment process, which would solve this and other problems through the magic of improved user interfaceness.

At the moment, the system is biased towards supraregional organizations -- if the mods are so desperate to spark activity that they would coup a feeder, perhaps they should think about removing the red-tape regarding recruitment for gameplay organizations that are run at the player-level as opposed to the supraregional level. At the moment, the rules force defender organizations either to be mini-ADNs, which have grown old and stale, or regional defense programs, which one needs to like the region to join. Either way, there is a better way to run a defender organization and it's currently handicapped by the ruleset.

Question: Am I allowed to send mass messages to my regional mates in Dharma? If a gameplay organization that is sanctioned by the region's administration to telegram is not allowed to telegram, then I don't see why delegates/founders are allowed to send out region-wide messages. Furthermore, if they're allowed to send domestic messages, I don't understand why a reminder to consider joining the region's affiliated defender organization would be out of place among the other reminders (e.g., "join the forums", "participate in the election")

[Unibot II]

After talking to some other mods, I'm afraid that's no to all. The first two are obvious, I think. You can only send a nation one recruitment telegram

How is the second one a recruitment letter? The player sanctions the 'recruitment' by leaving the link to go offsite.

[Glen-Rhodes]

To clarify on #3: While the Founder or Delegate controls the RMB, s/he doesn't control his members' inboxes. For this to be legal, nations in UCRs would have to sign up for recruitment telegrams individually, which kinda defeats the purpose.

What if the region's WFE clearly states that by being in the region you automatically agree to receive recruitment telegrams? Founders control every aspect of the region -- including whether or not you, as a nation, can be in it. I don't think it would be a stretch for founders to control the rules about TGing regional members. If those members don't like it, can't they just vote with their feet?

[Sedgistan]

By joining a region, one consents/opts-in to being contacted about the governance of that region. Any other organisations that may be created by players within that and other regions do not have in-game recognition - nations cannot and do not automatically consent to receiving messages from them.

How is the second one a recruitment letter? The player sanctions the 'recruitment' by leaving the link to go offsite.

You're referring to 1.b? You've already answered your question:

(1.b) Would it be legal for a feeder recruitment telegram <snip>

You've made quite clear that the purpose of 1.b would be to recruit. Trying to claim it is anything other than a recruitment telegram is disingenuous.

Glen-Rhodes, your point is moot. A founder may control the region, but this does not give them the right to control the inboxes of the nations resident in the region.

[Glen-Rhodes]

By joining a region, one consents/opts-in to being contacted about the governance of that region. Any other organisations that may be created by players within that and other regions do not have in-game recognition - nations cannot and do not automatically consent to receiving messages from them.

Nations automatically consent to whatever decisions made by a founder. The founder can eject and ban anybody. More important, the founder cane establish whatever rules they want and eject/ban anybody who doesn't follow them. I don't see what prohibits a founder from saying, "If you want to be in this region, you have to accept telegrams from our recruitment partners. If you don't want the telegrams, then don't reside in the region."

If a nation decides to accept that, aren't they pretty much 'sign[ing] up for recruitment telegrams individually'? Nobody is forcing them to accept the terms. It's identical to founders/delegates controlling who people endorse, which is just as personal of a game function as the TG inbox.

[Sedgistan]

Nations do not automatically consent to decisions made by the founder of their region.

The founder can try and enforce whatever conditions they want over nations, but that doesn't mean the nation has to accept it, or that those conditions are to be assumed legal. By your logic, founders could threaten to ban nations that don't change their nation pre-title to "the founder loving nation of..." - but that doesn't mean we're going to allow a founder to change the pre-titles of members of their region.

Nations continue to have the right to control what they receive in their inbox, with the exception of messages about the region they reside in, since it is fair to presume they have an interest in that. Founders are not going to be empowered to sign-up members of their region for adspam from other organisations.

[Euroslavia]

We are however considering possible overhauls to the recruitment process, which would solve this and other problems through the magic of improved user interfaceness.

At the moment, the system is biased towards supraregional organizations -- if the mods are so desperate to spark activity that they would coup a feeder, perhaps they should think about removing the red-tape regarding recruitment for gameplay organizations that are run at the player-level as opposed to the supraregional level.

Sedge's gameplay actions have absolutely nothing to do with his official position as a moderator or any stance that we hold in 'sparking activity in feeders'. There's no way you can go about linking the two together.

[Daynor]

Sorry for posting in moderation but the response to his question about recruitment treaties gave me a question which would be redundant to add a thread for. If founders/delegates don't get to give permission to recruit within their region then what does the “Recruiter Friendly” tag mean? RMB advertising only?

[NERVUN]

Sorry for posting in moderation but the response to his question about recruitment treaties gave me a question which would be redundant to add a thread for. If founders/delegates don't get to give permission to recruit within their region then what does the “Recruiter Friendly” tag mean? RMB advertising only?

Yes. Recruiters can place ads on the RMB, not into players' mailboxes.

[Unibot II]

By joining a region, one consents/opts-in to being contacted about the governance of that region. Any other organisations that may be created by players within that and other regions do not have in-game recognition - nations cannot and do not automatically consent to receiving messages from them.

And how much would a defender organization have to be integrated with a regional government for it to be considered apart of the region? What if it was a secondary regional military technically by law? A secondary regional military which had allies of the same name elsewhere, like a military franchise.

Also, I don't think the moderation team should be trying to determine if I'm disingenuous or not, nor do I think it is relevant towards a ruling. Whether or not I accidentally muliti'd is immaterial to a ruling on whether or not I muliti'd or not, just the same as whether or not I am lying through my teeth is irrelevant to whether or not a specific action is legal or not. For two reasons, (1) you cannot know for certain if I am lying that I'm lying, or lying that it was an accident as was the case in my previous example, (2) these rulings are to be fairly applied to all players, not applied more harshly when you think a player is trying to cleverly circumvent your rulebook.

[Glen-Rhodes]

The founder can try and enforce whatever conditions they want over nations, but that doesn't mean the nation has to accept it, or that those conditions are to be assumed legal. By your logic, founders could threaten to ban nations that don't change their nation pre-title to "the founder loving nation of..." - but that doesn't mean we're going to allow a founder to change the pre-titles of members of their region.

... Founders can eject and ban any nation that doesn't have a certain pretitle and there's no rule whatsoever that any mod or admin can use to stop them from doing so.

It seems that a line is being arbitrarily drawn. Founders can require a plethora of rules for region member to follow. They can require that nations not go above X endorsements. They can require that nations not be defenders or raiders. They can require nations to be in a certain WA category. But it stops at telegrams?

[NERVUN]

The founder can try and enforce whatever conditions they want over nations, but that doesn't mean the nation has to accept it, or that those conditions are to be assumed legal. By your logic, founders could threaten to ban nations that don't change their nation pre-title to "the founder loving nation of..." - but that doesn't mean we're going to allow a founder to change the pre-titles of members of their region.

... Founders can eject and ban any nation that doesn't have a certain pretitle and there's no rule whatsoever that any mod or admin can use to stop them from doing so.

It seems that a line is being arbitrarily drawn. Founders can require a plethora of rules for region member to follow. They can require that nations not go above X endorsements. They can require that nations not be defenders or raiders. They can require nations to be in a certain WA category. But it stops at telegrams?

But founders cannot force such a change. Nor are we going to respond to a GHR from a founder asking for such.

The rules on spam however, especially recruitment spam, are rather clear cut and we do respond to that.

[Nullarni]

But founders cannot force such a change. Nor are we going to respond to a GHR from a founder asking for such.

The rules on spam however, especially recruitment spam, are rather clear cut and we do respond to that.

I am going to step in here, if I may. I find this discussion fascinating.

Are you implying that if I eject/ban a member of my region for having an unapproved pretitle, they can go and get my decision appealed by a mod? Because, the way I always understood it was: if I create the region, I get to make the rules. And if you don't want to follow my rules, you don't get to stay in my region.

If they don't get to appeal my eject/ban, isn't that the mod team just allowing me to "force" the change via my regional controls?

[Ardchoille]

Heh. You've really answered this question yourself by putting "force" in quotes.

The game won't let you force a pre-title change because the game's not set up to let founders change pre-titles. There's no button. There's no panel. There's no drop-down menu.

The rules don't say anything giving you the right to request that it be changed. So if you send mods a GHR saying that you want us to change a nation's pre-title because it's against your rules, we'll just snicker (well, I will. The others are better-behaved).

However, the game is set up to let founders eject nations from their regions. There is no rule stating that the founder's reasons have to be sound. Or fair. Or even sane. If there's no rule-breaking going on, mods aren't involved.

So you can spin the situation by saying you forced a pre-title change. Or the player can spin it by saying that they humoured you by complying with your somewhat eccentric regional membership requirements. Either way, it's not our baby.

[Glen-Rhodes]

But founders cannot force such a change. Nor are we going to respond to a GHR from a founder asking for such.

It's not like founders are forcing people to accept TGs, either. Nobody has to join a region that has recruitment agreements with other regions. And if they do join such a region, then they are agreeing to receiving those TGs, which is the legality threshold that Tsaraine said needed to be met.

[Ardchoille]

These are the rules about recruitment TGs:
* Recruitment telegrams may be sent to residents of game-created regions. No 24-hour rule here - one per nation, period.
* Sending unsolicited recruitment telegrams to nations outside of game-created regions is not permitted.
They apply to founders. They apply to delegates. They apply to players. They apply to mods. They apply to admins. They will continue to apply until Max changes things.
As I'm now the sixth mod to post in this thread to reiterate this point, I think it's been made often enough. iLock.