Holodomor and the Great Purge, two acts of mass murder, are why he is rightfully hated.
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by Goldsaver » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:44 pm
by Brandenburg-Altmark » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:44 pm
by Tokyoni » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:46 pm
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
by Ferrond » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:48 pm
Tokyoni wrote:Nationstatelandsville wrote:
He may have stopped that, but not for selfish reasons of wanting control. He also, I don't know, committed mass genocides.
Without the USSR, almost certainly the Axis would have been victorious at the very least in the European front. Think of the millions more lives that would have been lost if not for the heroic action of the Soviet Union.
And no, relatively speaking the USSR under Stalin was quite humane. Actual executions of political opponents was quite rare - political isolation was the general practice: exile from the country or to a gulag. More akin to the Athenian conception of ostracism than anything else.
by H-Alba » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:48 pm
New Palikir wrote:Fifty Million+ people. Fifty Million. That's 1/6 of the current US population. That's more than any other dictator (except maybe Mao). Certainly not Saint-worthy. Nevsky is, but Stalin is not.
by Fonteveille » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:50 pm
Tokyoni wrote:Without the USSR, almost certainly the Axis would have been victorious at the very least in the European front. Think of the millions more lives that would have been lost if not for the heroic action of the Soviet Union.
And no, relatively speaking the USSR under Stalin was quite humane. Actual executions of political opponents was quite rare - political isolation was the general practice: exile from the country or to a gulag. More akin to the Athenian conception of ostracism than anything else.
by Tokyoni » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:50 pm
Ferrond wrote:Tokyoni wrote:
Without the USSR, almost certainly the Axis would have been victorious at the very least in the European front. Think of the millions more lives that would have been lost if not for the heroic action of the Soviet Union.
And no, relatively speaking the USSR under Stalin was quite humane. Actual executions of political opponents was quite rare - political isolation was the general practice: exile from the country or to a gulag. More akin to the Athenian conception of ostracism than anything else.
Nice trolling buddy
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
by Tokyoni » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:52 pm
Fonteveille wrote:Tokyoni wrote:Without the USSR, almost certainly the Axis would have been victorious at the very least in the European front. Think of the millions more lives that would have been lost if not for the heroic action of the Soviet Union.
And no, relatively speaking the USSR under Stalin was quite humane. Actual executions of political opponents was quite rare - political isolation was the general practice: exile from the country or to a gulag. More akin to the Athenian conception of ostracism than anything else.
I think a democratic Russia without the mass murder and repression would have done just as well. And seriously, comparing the brutal Stalinist regime to the birthplace of democracy?
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
by Nationstatelandsville » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:54 pm
Tokyoni wrote:New Palikir wrote:Fifty Million+ people. Fifty Million. That's 1/6 of the current US population. That's more than any other dictator (except maybe Mao). Certainly not Saint-worthy. Nevsky is, but Stalin is not.
How exactly are you arriving at those numbers? Even if you're counting the millions of brave Soviet soldiers who gave their lives in the Great Patriotic War fighting off the fascist hordes against him somehow, that's still nowhere close.
by Fonteveille » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:54 pm
Tokyoni wrote:The USSR certainly was democratic in nature.
And again, a temporary political isolation is infinitely preferable to execution, would you not agree?
The USSR was far superior to Athens, in that, in Athens, only male citizens, a small minority of the population had any political voice in the nation. In the USSR, the entire proletariat of both sexes was liberated.
by Ferrond » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:57 pm
Tokyoni wrote:Ferrond wrote: Nice trolling buddy
How so?
The numeric majority of the fighting in the European field of WWII occurred on the Eastern Front. Without Hitler's forces being on the Eastern Front, it's highly doubtful he could have been defeated on the Western Front.
And, I don't know about you, but I'd certainly prefer being exiled or sent to a remote village along with my family, allowed to still live and continue on in life (in what was almost always a temporary measure; most sent to gulags returned after a sentence of a few years), than face execution.
by Tokyoni » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:57 pm
Nationstatelandsville wrote:Tokyoni wrote:
How exactly are you arriving at those numbers? Even if you're counting the millions of brave Soviet soldiers who gave their lives in the Great Patriotic War fighting off the fascist hordes against him somehow, that's still nowhere close.
He killed those who didn't agree with him whole heartedly. I'd say that makes him a jack ass, and not worthy of being a saint.
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
by Ferrond » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:58 pm
Tokyoni wrote::kiss:Fonteveille wrote:
I think a democratic Russia without the mass murder and repression would have done just as well. And seriously, comparing the brutal Stalinist regime to the birthplace of democracy?
The USSR certainly was democratic in nature.
And again, a temporary political isolation is infinitely preferable to execution, would you not agree?
The USSR was far superior to Athens, in that, in Athens, only male citizens, a small minority of the population had any political voice in the nation. In the USSR, the entire proletariat of both sexes was liberated.
by Tokyoni » Sun Jun 05, 2011 7:59 pm
Ferrond wrote:Tokyoni wrote:
How so?
The numeric majority of the fighting in the European field of WWII occurred on the Eastern Front. Without Hitler's forces being on the Eastern Front, it's highly doubtful he could have been defeated on the Western Front.
And, I don't know about you, but I'd certainly prefer being exiled or sent to a remote village along with my family, allowed to still live and continue on in life (in what was almost always a temporary measure; most sent to gulags returned after a sentence of a few years), than face execution.
Oh if I could choose I would probably opt for none of the above. If I'm forced to I'd choose nazi occupiers than stalinist forces. Btw I understand you're a hardcore communist so I don't expect us to agree on that.
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
by Fonteveille » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:00 pm
Ferrond wrote:Tokyoni wrote::kiss:
The USSR certainly was democratic in nature.
And again, a temporary political isolation is infinitely preferable to execution, would you not agree?
The USSR was far superior to Athens, in that, in Athens, only male citizens, a small minority of the population had any political voice in the nation. In the USSR, the entire proletariat of both sexes was liberated.
Oh you need a reality pill man
by Floreria » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:00 pm
by Ferrond » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:02 pm
Tokyoni wrote:Ferrond wrote:
Oh if I could choose I would probably opt for none of the above. If I'm forced to I'd choose nazi occupiers than stalinist forces. Btw I understand you're a hardcore communist so I don't expect us to agree on that.
A "democractic socialist" who would prefer Hitler to Stalin. How interesting.
Well, all ideologies aside, I'd certainly rather be sent to one of Stalin's gulags (based on political action) than Hitler's concentration camps (based on who your grandparents were or your sexuality); primarily as the former was generally temporary, and most sent to gulags survived and were released, stayed in cleaner conditions with their families. And Hitler's concentration camps... not so much.
by Tokyoni » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:05 pm
Ferrond wrote:Tokyoni wrote:
A "democractic socialist" who would prefer Hitler to Stalin. How interesting.
Well, all ideologies aside, I'd certainly rather be sent to one of Stalin's gulags (based on political action) than Hitler's concentration camps (based on who your grandparents were or your sexuality); primarily as the former was generally temporary, and most sent to gulags survived and were released, stayed in cleaner conditions with their families. And Hitler's concentration camps... not so much.
Sorry, you need to brush off your knowledge about russian gulags. And btw I'm no democratic socialist, that's my second state.
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
by AlexJacobii » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:06 pm
by New Acardia » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:07 pm
by Ferrond » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:08 pm
Tokyoni wrote:Ferrond wrote:
Sorry, you need to brush off your knowledge about russian gulags. And btw I'm no democratic socialist, that's my second state.
I've read a number of accounts of those sent to gulags. Most of them before I even identified as a communist in any fashion.
Generally the picture painted seemed to be that they were rather remote, geographically isolated villages, but that they lived with their families, had the supplies to maintain life provided for them, and were allowed to return to their original homes after a number of years. Some even chose to remain, as they'd grown accustomed to the community there.
by Niur » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:09 pm
by Tokyoni » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:10 pm
AlexJacobii wrote:
Good deed? He broke the Moltov-Ribbentov pact by invading his sphere of influence and the Nazi's punished him for it. Maybe if you were referring to the invasion as the good deed you would be in the right.
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
by Fonteveille » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:11 pm
New acardia wrote:This is some one's very sick joke That's not even funny at all as a Orthodox Christian I find the idea totally offensive
by Tokyoni » Sun Jun 05, 2011 8:13 pm
Ferrond wrote:Tokyoni wrote:
I've read a number of accounts of those sent to gulags. Most of them before I even identified as a communist in any fashion.
Generally the picture painted seemed to be that they were rather remote, geographically isolated villages, but that they lived with their families, had the supplies to maintain life provided for them, and were allowed to return to their original homes after a number of years. Some even chose to remain, as they'd grown accustomed to the community there.
Those must have been the 'easy' gulags then. I have also heard stories of people 'vanishing' either en route or after arriving there. Systematic torture, rape, exposure to the elements and even human experiments. If even half of these are true then sent to a gas chamber any day!
Saurisia wrote:People's Empire of the Rising Juche Sun
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