Add regions to your Dossier?

[Numero Capitan]

I haven't read through all this yet, but what I gather is that the defender advantage would come from the Reports page. Well, what if I just didn't add regions to that?

Allow annexations where they'd be permanently viewed in the region's history, and I'll allow this, yep

Thats an interesting idea Todd, is it expanded on elsewhere?

Back to Pyth's comment, yes thats exactly what should be done. Noone on the topic has argued for it to be added to the reports page and several have argued against it. Even as a defender I wouldn't want it in the reports. It makes spotting too easy for a start and clogs up my reports with information I wont want, best to just have nations in the reports.

[The Sedge]

Thats an interesting idea Todd, is it expanded on elsewhere?

Back to Pyth's comment, yes thats exactly what should be done. Noone on the topic has argued for it to be added to the reports page and several have argued against it. Even as a defender I wouldn't want it in the reports. It makes spotting too easy for a start and clogs up my reports with information I wont want, best to just have nations in the reports.

Annex is here: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=4498 The idea of a regional history is mentioned by [violet] in that thread.

I'd be perfectly happy with dossiering regions, and them not appearing on reports. Its not just useful for defending/invading, but also for those interested in foreign affairs who like to see how other regions are doing. It saves having to bookmark them, or trying to remember all the ones you want to check on.

[Anime Daisuki]

I haven't read through all this yet, but what I gather is that the defender advantage would come from the Reports page. Well, what if I just didn't add regions to that?

This eludes me. One only need to look at the number of regions being invaded and destroyed weekly to see which sides really needs help.

If we really want to count the specific actions that benefited each side:
- In 2006, the introduction of influence and removal of rules, strongly benefited invaders because it allowed them to grief regions.
- The recent "Liberation" proposal was an attempt to restore that balance.
- However, by making updates at twice daily instead of once daily, the mods again allowed invaders twice the opportunity to invade.

If anything, there is currently still a net-advantage to invaders. Any subsequent mod action to change the game should consider this, and the very important fact that it is not "defenders" that is being advantaged or disadvantaged, but the majority of peace-loving NS players--Most people do not want to see their community destroyed, and did not sign up for the game to become casualties of "invader fun".

[Martyrdoom]

Careful AD: some silly sod may accuse you of being way too impartial on this question.

[Darkesia]

[NotPing]

I haven't read through all this yet, but what I gather is that the defender advantage would come from the Reports page. Well, what if I just didn't add regions to that?

This eludes me. One only need to look at the number of regions being invaded and destroyed weekly to see which sides really needs help.

If we really want to count the specific actions that benefited each side:
- In 2006, the introduction of influence and removal of rules, strongly benefited invaders because it allowed them to grief regions.
- The recent "Liberation" proposal was an attempt to restore that balance.
- However, by making updates at twice daily instead of once daily, the mods again allowed invaders twice the opportunity to invade.

If anything, there is currently still a net-advantage to invaders. Any subsequent mod action to change the game should consider this, and the very important fact that it is not "defenders" that is being advantaged or disadvantaged, but the majority of peace-loving NS players--Most people do not want to see their community destroyed, and did not sign up for the game to become casualties of "invader fun".

I don't know why you don't consider double updates giving defenders twice the opportunity to defend as well.

[Pythagosaurus]

It gives twice as many chances for invasions and liberations. Defenders don't get to choose when and where to strike.

[Neasmyrna]

Indeed, this would be a huge blow on the invaders, and yes Naivetry, your chance of countering update raids WILL be increased by at least 70%. Here's why (if you really haven't figured it out yet, and you're not just acting so it can pass):

A region in your dossier, means that you get reports from said region. It's actually very simple: a well trained defenders puts all founderless regions in his dossier, and just checks the dossier at update for "suspicious actions", calls his people in and it's done. Sure this may not seem very easy for one sole defender - but if you take in account that defenders are all over this game, and seemingly a majority over raiders, you will realise that this feature would make update raids practically impossible. And they're hard to do even now (trust me, I would know!).

Just to note... I don't think you should get reports from the regions in your dossier... something I forgot to mention... as I hadn't even thought about its effect there.

If this is implemented without the reports the time saved would be microscopic... there are so many potential regions that can be invaded that if defenders used the tool they could only effectively monitor a few key regions...

but even then they can just bookmark them on a browser... so the only difference is moving something already being done into a game mechanic. Which I think can be good.

[NotPing]

Defenders don't get to choose when and where to strike.

That's the nature of defending... they react. They could choose where if they were 2 or more invasions to choose from, and when is a matter of delaying the liberation until the next update

[Naivetry]

Indeed, this would be a huge blow on the invaders, and yes Naivetry, your chance of countering update raids WILL be increased by at least 70%. Here's why (if you really haven't figured it out yet, and you're not just acting so it can pass):

A region in your dossier, means that you get reports from said region. It's actually very simple: a well trained defenders puts all founderless regions in his dossier, and just checks the dossier at update for "suspicious actions", calls his people in and it's done. Sure this may not seem very easy for one sole defender - but if you take in account that defenders are all over this game, and seemingly a majority over raiders, you will realise that this feature would make update raids practically impossible. And they're hard to do even now (trust me, I would know!).

You'll notice I'm arguing that this would be a big benefit for defenders, given the current state of some (certainly not all) raider operations. But I maintain it would have no impact on a properly run update raid. Years of tracking raiders have shown me exactly how to conduct a raid so as not to be tracked, and in my experience a large number of raiders simply don't bother to take such steps. And they often get away with it because active and committed defenders, as opposed to some of the native-friendly but militarily inactive nations who post here, are spread very thinly indeed these days.

And no; I don't play tricks when I come here. I may be wrong about what I say, but I believe everything I say.

Defenders don't get to choose when and where to strike.

That's the nature of defending... they react. They could choose where if they were 2 or more invasions to choose from, and when is a matter of delaying the liberation until the next update

I think the point of that statement, to put it back into context, was that defenders do not have twice the opportunity to defend, unless raiders are in fact raiding twice as often. Our benefit (and it is substantial) comes from being able to choose times for liberations, not defenses. But I think that's a discussion for another thread.

To be honest, I'm really not sure what the point would be of dossiering regions if there's no report feature attached; but maybe Firefox's URL-completion feature has spoiled me. I don't make a habit of checking RMBs except when something interesting is taking place in a given region, so I usually just hit the NS link in my bookmarks toolbar and type "region=namehere" - and that way, I don't have to be logged in to a specific nation. As for checking on more than one region at a time, a set of bookmarks where you can push "open all in tabs" would be even faster than a set of dossier links. *shrugs*

Actually, what I'd like would be the ability to collect RMB activity from a dossiered region. That would make it worthwhile. I don't know how many times I've missed an answer to my post, or the beginning of a conversation... or a string of interesting gossip in TORC, or whatever.

[Germova]

why not have the game allow us to .......................................


i believe in light of this game and more practical use.

we should have buttons or something for each player to click for war,peace,work,political desires, etc

this game should become more interactive as real life is

thus we can choose our own profile and actions towards other nation's

[Dysian]

Hate bookmarks, they mess up my browser

If this is implemented without the reports the time saved would be microscopic...

Indeed, but it will still be an advantage for defenders. Can't expect me to allow that

But I maintain it would have no impact on a properly run update raid.

Properly run? I explained how by now, only the most professional raids succeed. Now by "properly run", you must mean "perfectly done in any sense". And let's be frank - NOONE is perfect.

If anything, as I said, it would give invaders much more work, and defenders much less. That, in my book, is called BIASED.

and the very important fact that it is not "defenders" that is being advantaged or disadvantaged, but the majority of peace-loving NS players--Most people do not want to see their community destroyed, and did not sign up for the game to become casualties of "invader fun".

AD - that, pardon my expression, is a lame argument. It's not new either - we've seen defenders all over the place trying to explain how "invading" is something unnatural, something that doesn't happen...
Fact is, it does. Every single nation-based online game associates to (and has incorporated) warring. I sign up to CyberNations to wage war against others. I sign up to O-Game to conquer other people's lands. I sign up on ImperiaOnline (less famous) to do the same. I sign up to bloody WoW to smash other people with non-conventional weapons and magic. Not to speak about real life...

So yes, please don't bring up that argument ever again fendas, will ye?

EDIT: I believe your argument of how raiders were more advantaged with changes over the years was proven wrong by others, so I'd just second that as well.

[Numero Capitan]

But I maintain it would have no impact on a properly run update raid.

Properly run? I explained how by now, only the most professional raids succeed. Now by "properly run", you must mean "perfectly done in any sense". And let's be frank - NOONE is perfect

Actually, if you look at many of the liberations performed by defenders in the past month (thirteen in the last fourteen days for the FRA, so I am told ) and then look at the most recent invasions you'll notice a vast gap in the expertise of defenders and invaders at this time. I think most defenders who have been playing over a year look at the current invader regions with disbelief at the number of schoolboy errors in every raid. Noone is perfect but raids could easily be, but unfortunately most of the raids these days seem to be 13/14 year olds being bored on MSN and thinking it would be fun.

And every time invader groups conduct poorly planned/organised/conducted raids it enables more and more scapegoats for defender saboteurs to use as they slip through your nets. I talk with legendary raiders of the past who turn in their NS graves at the state of raiding in Nationstates.

You complain about how badly the rules are treating you and that its all the anti-raider moderators spoiling your fun. Heres an idea, maybe if you wanted to have successful raids then you should get your acts together and stop being so amateur rather than looking for scapegoats on this forum. Once you do that then your arguments about small irrelevant code changes that might benefit defenders may have more weight. I couldn't care less about this feature, I certainly wouldn't use it for spotting because I know that in every raid there will be at least 5 other ways I can pick it up from raider incompetence that are far easier to track.

Finally, Neas, maybe you should just get Firefox (and keep it updated)

[Darkesia]

NC, I think you're missing a point I keep trying to make. I think I'll try it one more time.

In the [echo] long and distant NS past [/echo] Raiders were often bored defenders. Now, now. Don't gasp and claim ignorance of this. Anyone remember CoBD, the Coalition of Bored Defenders? Even today, some of the most professionally run raids/refounds/hostile annexations are done by the likes of TITO and other regions/alliances that call themselves neutral or defender. They are, after all, "defending their interests."

You see, the whole idea of a 'properly' run raid is a defender idea. It is a fundamental difference in the way raiders and defenders perceive the purpose of this or any other game.

Raiders want to have fun. Period.
They don't want to have to spend 4 hours a day online tracking other nations. They don't want to have some arbitrary title and with it the responsibility to log into the off site forum twice a day to post some governmental jargon or the results of some elections. They don't want to create and maintain long lists of available update raiders, their RL phone contacts, e-mails, MSN/IM, work schedules etc.

These are all activities that the greatest defender networks maintain. It must be fun for them, or they wouldn't do it. Raiders can't fathom how anyone would enjoy that. Most of all, the raiders can't fathom wanting to spend their time in-game being 'properly' somber, humorless and indignant but really well organized and well spoken.

Excuse my off topic interruption.

Back to the topic: I rephrase what I said earlier. Provided there is no reporting feature attached to the region dossier, I see no reason not to add the feature. Of course, I think recruiting can be done more easily other ways. But if it's something others would like to use, *shrugs* go for it.

[Neanbear]

*thinks Darkesia is a bit out of touch with defenders*

Humorless, indignant, and borderline stalker? That makes me want to do this.

But, adding a Regions to the dossier would without a doubt benefit defenders. But, I really don't think it would benefit defenders as much if the feed wouldn't show up in reports.

[Evil Wolf]

DO NOT WANT!

The advantage would be huge! As a defender all I would have to do is punch in ever founderless region I know of, sit around at update and just watch my Reports as I stomp every single raid with ridiculous amounts of ease.

Stealth is a raiders almost *only* advantage. You give someone the option of dossiering whole regions at a time and you virtually take that advantage away completely.

[Neasmyrna]

DO NOT WANT!

The advantage would be huge! As a defender all I would have to do is punch in ever founderless region I know of, sit around at update and just watch my Reports as I stomp every single raid with ridiculous amounts of ease.

Stealth is a raiders almost *only* advantage. You give someone the option of dossiering whole regions at a time and you virtually take that advantage away completely.

Wow...

first off I'm fine having this without reports... second... even with reports... if you dossier... oh... 50 regions... you still have a massive amount of data to pour through...

second... "only" advantage?

get real...

you pick where you attack...

defenders do not...

With 10 people you can take over the majority of the founderless regions in NS...

if you get them to move in in a 1-4 minute window there is no way we can stop you... simple as that...

even if you move in 10 minutes before the update... your chances are very good...

again... this was not supposed to have anything to do with the invader/defender things... but apparently it does... so yeah...

[Evil Wolf]

I've lost update raids before. TITO in fact seems to be very good at stopping them. Guess it depends on how good you are really.

[Pythagosaurus]

The debate can stop. I am going to implement this, but without adding regions to the reports page, unless there are new reasons against it. As far as I can tell, the difference between this and bookmarks is minuscule. I assume they track you pretty easily from the WA recent events and feeder regional happenings, anyway.

And you know, you can raid regions with founders, too. So you'll get kicked out within a few days. Big deal. We don't really want you permanently taking over regions anyway, and you can then go raid somewhere else.

[Ruzan]

And you know, you can raid regions with founders, too. So you'll get kicked out within a few days. Big deal.

QFT! Waay back when I was an active raider, my group found out that a region's Founder would be away for the weekend, and we moved in. We knew we weren't going to be able to hold the region, but it was still fun out-manuvering the other region's Delegate and taking over for a short time, and being able to boast that we took a Foundered region.

[[violet]]

I am going to implement this, but without adding regions to the reports page

Perfect.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

This is a wonderful idea and would be worthy of a news item when it comes to be implemented.

[Pythagosaurus]

I like surprising people.

[UNIverseVERSE]

More broadly, (and slightly off topic), why the fuck is any proposed feature all of a sudden this life or death battle between two different camps? It's like US politics all over again.

Someone suggested a kind of cool, and quite useful, feature. I would use something like this to keep an eye on regions I'm interested in for some reason, just like I use the dossier to keep an eye on nations I'm interested in*. Why is it suddenly a life or death battle between these two groups, when probably 95% of the NS members don't give a damn?

And how is not putting it on the reports page viable as a solution? What's to stop me just looking at my dossier, seeing that the region has twice as many nations all of a sudden, and going to check?

*Incidentally, tracking invasions already seems trivial by combining the dossier, the reports page, and the 'add nation to dossier' button.

[Northern Chittowa]

Its because it can be used by either military forces which makes it a 'life and death battle' to use your words...Those who can see a tactical advantage to any new idea being proposed are always going to argue for or against it, depending on the advantages (or indeed disadvantages) that it will bring...