Menelmacar wrote:With the following caveats:
- All of these are highly developed, the priorities are relative to one another.
OOC: I think this is taken as a given unless otherwise noted.
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by Derscon » Sun Aug 30, 2009 1:51 pm
Menelmacar wrote:With the following caveats:
- All of these are highly developed, the priorities are relative to one another.
by -Raysia- » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:16 pm
by Techno-Soviet » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:19 pm
[/quote]The Technocratic Hegemony wrote:Triangle Major:
- Defense
- Offense
- Mobility
Triangle Minor:
- Tactics
- Clandestinity
- Suprabiology
Specializations:
- Self-Guided Systems
- Directed Energy
- Materials Engineering
- Alteration
- Gravitonics
by The Machine Imperium » Sun Aug 30, 2009 2:49 pm
The Machine Imperium wrote:Triangle Major:
- Offense
- Defense
- Mobility
Triangle Minor:
- Tactics
- Clandestinity
- Suprabiology
Specializations:
- Self-Guided Systems:
- Materials Engineering
- Directed Energy
- Alteration
- Gravitonics
by Sskiss » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:11 am
by Hyperspatial Travel » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:20 am
Hyperspatial Travel wrote:Triangle Major:
- Offense
- Mobility
- Defense
Triangle Minor:
- Tactics
- Suprabiology
- Clandestinity
Specializations:
- Gravitonics
- Directed Energy
- Materials Engineering
- Self-Guided Systems
- Alteration
by Derscon » Mon Aug 31, 2009 9:05 am
Sskiss wrote:Derscon wrote:OOC: I think this is taken as a given unless otherwise noted.
I concur. I have always assumed that any nation or race of sufficient age (such as many here including my own) is going to be advanced in at least most of the options presented. I just choose the ones that I had played up in RP's in the past. A for suprabiology, it could have many applications; medical, biological/genetic engineering, bio-weapons, applications for structures, such as armour and so on. Even terraforming would to a degree fall under suprabiology.
by -Bretonia- » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:38 am
Derscon wrote:Sskiss wrote:Derscon wrote:OOC: I think this is taken as a given unless otherwise noted.
I concur. I have always assumed that any nation or race of sufficient age (such as many here including my own) is going to be advanced in at least most of the options presented. I just choose the ones that I had played up in RP's in the past. A for suprabiology, it could have many applications; medical, biological/genetic engineering, bio-weapons, applications for structures, such as armour and so on. Even terraforming would to a degree fall under suprabiology.
*nods* My thoughts exactly. Like you said, "any nation or race of sufficient age" - although I would also add "of sufficient age and development," since many old nations and races may not have developed as well as younger ones for a multitude of circumstances (but this is nitpicking) - would have developed at least something in most of the fields. In fact, it would have been a necessity to develop sufficiently in most of the fields - and at least a basic amount in all of them - in order to be an advanced nation.
So perhaps, from here on out, those posting should make a note of underdeveloped catageories - such as a nation who abhors the "supernatural" might make a note that alteration is not only on the bottom, but almost ignored.
by Derscon » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:43 am
-Bretonia- wrote:Derscon wrote:Sskiss wrote:I concur. I have always assumed that any nation or race of sufficient age (such as many here including my own) is going to be advanced in at least most of the options presented. I just choose the ones that I had played up in RP's in the past. A for suprabiology, it could have many applications; medical, biological/genetic engineering, bio-weapons, applications for structures, such as armour and so on. Even terraforming would to a degree fall under suprabiology.
*nods* My thoughts exactly. Like you said, "any nation or race of sufficient age" - although I would also add "of sufficient age and development," since many old nations and races may not have developed as well as younger ones for a multitude of circumstances (but this is nitpicking) - would have developed at least something in most of the fields. In fact, it would have been a necessity to develop sufficiently in most of the fields - and at least a basic amount in all of them - in order to be an advanced nation.
So perhaps, from here on out, those posting should make a note of underdeveloped catageories - such as a nation who abhors the "supernatural" might make a note that alteration is not only on the bottom, but almost ignored.
There are political and cultural considerations to... erm, consider as well though. Some nations might have laws, for example, preventing research into gravitics, perhaps due to safety or environmental concern. Or perhaps people as a whole are highly superstitious about certain things, or maybe they simply can't afford to research certain concepts. I mean, try and do some stem cell research in the United States and you'll see what I mean.
by -Bretonia- » Mon Aug 31, 2009 10:52 am
Derscon wrote:But of course, I merely used cultural norms as one example. Political considerations are another thing to take into account. But then again, why would the politics be the way they are? Most likely, it is because of the culture.
by Arizona Nova » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:25 am
Morningstar Coalition wrote:Alright. I've been up till almost three am while agonizing over the final details of my new nation's navy, specifically types of ship classes, crew compliments, total numbers available, and so on, so bear with me if this isn't totally coherent.
I was reading through Arizona Nova's excellent "Science of a Nation" thread and I came across some ideas. I want to try and refine and improve Arizona's work here, and I thought the argument thread might be a better place than cluttering the Science thread with debate which may or may not lead anywhere.
So here's my thoughts.
The concept of rating specialties and fields of technology is a wonderful one, and I think goes a long way towards allowing us each to really look at our nations and our tech-bases, not to mention allowing us to get a better understanding of the same things in other nations. However, when I first read Arizona's categories/specialties, I was somewhat confused. I admit that a good deal of my preconceptions come from years of sci-fi stories, and especially computer and console games involving technology research (Master of Orion, Civilization, Space Empires, Etc). In most of these sources, there were a handful of easily understandable categories or trees. Arizona has hit on several, but others seem to be absent.
Arizona has the following Specialties:
Materials Engineering: this governs all the secrets regarding the recombination of phyical substance for directed use; whether simply distilling water to drink to crafting in neutronium, the densest material known to exist.
Directed Energy: this is the power to bend and manipulate energy to a purpose, ranging from the utilization of electricity to accomplish motor movement, to the workings of a superlaser array designed to destroy a planet.
Self-Guided Systems: This refers to any system created with the intent to act upon its own initiative, whether a simple guided missile or an immense and complex arch-AI-lect.
Gravitonics: Gravity is, as a force, one which walks the line between energy and matter, affecting both in various, sometimes unpredictable ways. Gravitonics touches everything from artificial gravity systems to black hole bombs.
Alteration: The most esoteric specialization, alteration encompasses any technology which directly alters the fabric of reality itself, whether it be dimensionally, temporally, or through quantum mechanics.
Now, I mean no disrespect at all, but I wonder if these categories could be refined or improved in any way. By looking at these in detail, maybe we can combine some of them, while adding new categories.
Materials Engineering. In Master of Orion, this would fall smack in the field of "Construction", and I think is quite apt in it's current use. This field or specialty can help give an indication of how advanced the materials in a nation are. Whether they use high-carbon steel, to compressed-matter diamond-like materials. I have no proposal for this field.
Directed Energy: I believe I understand where Arizona was going with this, however I believe both the name and the description could be misleading. I don't think this field is, or should be, specifically about weapons. I think we should broaden this to include all the various forms of power and energy technologies. Development of fusion reactors, antimatter manufacture, superconductors. The generation and harnessing of energy. I propose the name "Energy Physics".
Self-Guided Systems: As with energy technology, this category has many more applications than weapons technology. AIs can be interfaced into starships, factories, even communications networks. This field can even include the basic technologies upon which the advanced computers (sentient or not) are built. Electronics, optical, quantum, or spacetime. I propose the name "Information Science".
Gravitonics: This field seems to me unnecessarily limited and focused. While I admit that being able to manipulate gravity is a potent and important tool in FT, I'm not sure it needs a separate category, especially in light of the field of Alteration. I propose this field be removed or merged with Alteration.
Alteration: To me it seems this category serves two purposes. One is specifically to hold those technologies which deal with the direct manipulation of space, time, or the universe at large. Time travel, phasing shields/cloak, dimensional effects, and perhaps even the direct manipulation of gravity and/or inertia. The second purpose this category seems to serve is a sort of "catch-all" field for any technology or science which doesn't fit the other four fields. I see no problem with this, but a "Misc" field need not be merged with one which seems to have clear applications. I propose the name "Reality Alteration".
New Field: One thing which I noticed as a seeming hole in the fields of science is that pertaining to biotechnology. Everything from antibiotics, auto-docs, hyposprays, genetic engineering, cybernetics, to biological starships. I propose the new field of "Biotechnology".
New Field: As mentioned before, we may in fact need a catch-all "Misc" field where players can lump technologies which do not fit the other fields. When someone places this "Misc" in a high priority, they can include comments or explanations of exactly what technologies they wish it to represent. I propose the new field of "Exotic Sciences".
Now we get to what Arizona calls the "Major and Minor Triangles". These seem to embody military doctrines, and seem to serve the purpose to classify our FT starships. The major triangle is divided between Mobility, Offense, and Defense. This falls right in line with real-world, wet-navy doctrines of Speed, Armor, and Firepower. I really see no problems with this "Doctrinal Triad". It is quite logical and sound in it's own right.
The Minor Triangle is divided between:
Tactics: The ability to effectively command and control, to make and relay decisions as quickly as possible, and employ countermeasures to hamper the enemy's abilities; i.e., your ability to react and outmaneuver your enemy's technology, though not necessarily stop it.
Clandestinity: The ability to hide from the enemy, whether literally in battle or figuratively through espionage; any technology which aims to fortify this quality.
Suprabiology: The resources spent on developing attributes outside of natural evolution, whether it is simply increased longevity or psionic/Force powers.
Aside for the good-humor ribbing I've already given Arizona about the questionable word "Clandestinity", I think there is still room for improvement for the minor triangle.
Tactics: As Arizona describes, this field focuses on what amounts to Command & Control ability and Leadership qualities. Advanced communications, tactical awareness, and speed of orders are all driven towards perfection in this field. I propose the name "Command".
Clandestinity: Stealth, evasion, spying, deception, ambushes, feints. Dirty, underhanded tricks to win an engagement. These are qualities you see in the Romulans of Star Trek, Gathering intelligence on your enemy, without giving anything of yourself away. I propose the name "Espionage".
Suprabiology: I personally believe that again we've come across another "Misc" category. A place to put anything that doesn't fit elsewhere. I don't think we need or want this in what is supposed to be a "Doctrinal Triad", because each point in the triangle is supposed to be an equally valid doctrine of war, the importance of each which must be chosen by the nation. Psionics, magic, and the Force are all things which can easily be covered by either Reality Alteration, or Exotic Sciences. I propose the removal of this field.
This leaves us with a problem. The Major Triad is logical and it's easy to see how Mobility, Defense, and Offense balance and weight against each other. I believe that Command and Espionage form two points of a similar triad, however for the life of me I cannot come up with a suitable third point for this second triangle. At this point it may just be the sleep deprivation, but I am going to wrap this up and open things for debate. Debate both on my proposed changes, but also on what might be put into the place of the third point of the minor triangle.
Thanks for your time!
Huerdae wrote:I fully agree with Morningstar, and would like to throw my support behind the post of impressive quality which can be seen here.
I would, however, like to propose a third piece of the triad to the minor triangle! What you have in the major triangle are three obvious, easily-recognizable aspects of every warship, and in the minor triangle, you have two aspects that apply not to the warship, but to the crew and preparation which go into that warship's effect on the battlefield. So what I propose as the final part of the minor triangle would be as follows:
Logistics: No matter how well-trained your crew, no matter how powerful your warship, or how mighty your weapons, in the end, the battle can sometimes be brought down to the terrible reality of proper supply and preparation. This applies to the ability of an empire to properly assess the needs of an engagement, from required reinforcements, resupply, ammunition, and repair needs. Better logistics permit faster assaults, more efficient supply lines, and proper handling of a prolonged conflict.
Just my opinion, but something which I felt was integral in war, and needed a place.
by Derscon » Mon Aug 31, 2009 11:56 am
by Sskiss » Mon Aug 31, 2009 12:18 pm
by Arizona Nova » Mon Aug 31, 2009 3:59 pm
Morningstar Coalition wrote:Directed Energy: I believe I understand where Arizona was going with this, however I believe both the name and the description could be misleading. I don't think this field is, or should be, specifically about weapons. I think we should broaden this to include all the various forms of power and energy technologies. Development of fusion reactors, antimatter manufacture, superconductors. The generation and harnessing of energy. I propose the name "Energy Physics".
Morningstar Coalition wrote:Self-Guided Systems: As with energy technology, this category has many more applications than weapons technology. AIs can be interfaced into starships, factories, even communications networks. This field can even include the basic technologies upon which the advanced computers (sentient or not) are built. Electronics, optical, quantum, or spacetime. I propose the name "Information Science".
Morningstar Coalition wrote:Gravitonics: This field seems to me unnecessarily limited and focused. While I admit that being able to manipulate gravity is a potent and important tool in FT, I'm not sure it needs a separate category, especially in light of the field of Alteration. I propose this field be removed or merged with Alteration.
Morningstar Coalition wrote:Alteration: To me it seems this category serves two purposes. One is specifically to hold those technologies which deal with the direct manipulation of space, time, or the universe at large. Time travel, phasing shields/cloak, dimensional effects, and perhaps even the direct manipulation of gravity and/or inertia. The second purpose this category seems to serve is a sort of "catch-all" field for any technology or science which doesn't fit the other four fields. I see no problem with this, but a "Misc" field need not be merged with one which seems to have clear applications. I propose the name "Reality Alteration".
Morningstar Coalition wrote:New Field: One thing which I noticed as a seeming hole in the fields of science is that pertaining to biotechnology. Everything from antibiotics, auto-docs, hyposprays, genetic engineering, cybernetics, to biological starships. I propose the new field of "Biotechnology".
Morningstar Coalition wrote:New Field: As mentioned before, we may in fact need a catch-all "Misc" field where players can lump technologies which do not fit the other fields. When someone places this "Misc" in a high priority, they can include comments or explanations of exactly what technologies they wish it to represent. I propose the new field of "Exotic Sciences".
Morningstar Coalition wrote:Now we get to what Arizona calls the "Major and Minor Triangles". These seem to embody military doctrines, and seem to serve the purpose to classify our FT starships. The major triangle is divided between Mobility, Offense, and Defense. This falls right in line with real-world, wet-navy doctrines of Speed, Armor, and Firepower. I really see no problems with this "Doctrinal Triad". It is quite logical and sound in it's own right.
Morningstar Coalition wrote:Tactics: As Arizona describes, this field focuses on what amounts to Command & Control ability and Leadership qualities. Advanced communications, tactical awareness, and speed of orders are all driven towards perfection in this field. I propose the name "Command".
Morningstar Coalition wrote:Clandestinity: Stealth, evasion, spying, deception, ambushes, feints. Dirty, underhanded tricks to win an engagement. These are qualities you see in the Romulans of Star Trek, Gathering intelligence on your enemy, without giving anything of yourself away. I propose the name "Espionage".
Huerdae wrote:Logistics: No matter how well-trained your crew, no matter how powerful your warship, or how mighty your weapons, in the end, the battle can sometimes be brought down to the terrible reality of proper supply and preparation. This applies to the ability of an empire to properly assess the needs of an engagement, from required reinforcements, resupply, ammunition, and repair needs. Better logistics permit faster assaults, more efficient supply lines, and proper handling of a prolonged conflict.
by Feazanthia » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:01 pm
by Arizona Nova » Mon Aug 31, 2009 4:40 pm
by Morningstar Coalition » Mon Aug 31, 2009 5:38 pm
by Arizona Nova » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:29 pm
. : ooc : . What this means is that, those who have posted tech profiles, it would make sense to either repost them or edit the ones you have to reflect the Second Edition of the Inquiry. However, if you remain attached to the first edition, or are simply too lazy to be bothered, that is alright too; I will [spoiler] tag the superceded text when I edit in the new triangles and specialties into the OP, so it can still be accessed.
As well, as I have said through Dacre, this thread is also open to suggestions regarding subspecializations.
by Derscon » Wed Sep 02, 2009 4:42 pm
The Fourth Dersconi Amaranthine Imperium wrote:Triangle Major:
- Defense
- Mobility
- Offense
Triangle Minor:
- Communications
- Countermeasures
- Covertness
Specializations:
- Reality Alteration
- Nucleonics
- Biotechnology
- Information Science
- Gravitonics
- Materials Engineering
- Energy Physics
by The Fedral Union » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:06 pm
The United Solar States of the Terran Alliance wrote:Triangle Major:
- Most Important: Offense
- Mobility
- Least important: Defense
Triangle Minor:
- Most Important: Communication
- Countermeasures:
- Least important: Covertness
Specializations:
- Most Important: Reality Alteration.
- Nucleonics
- Energy Physics
- Information Science
- Biotechnology
- Materials Engineering
- Least Important: Gravitonics
by Derscon » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:19 pm
The Fedral Union wrote:The United Solar States of the Terran Alliance wrote:Triangle Major:
- Most Important: Offense
- Mobility
- Least important: Defense
Triangle Minor:
- Most Important: Communication
- Countermeasures:
- Least important: Covertness
Specializations:
- Most Important: Reality Alteration.
- Nucleonics
- Energy Physics
- Information Science
- Biotechnology
- Materials Engineering
- Least Important: Gravitonics
by Shinkadomayaka » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:29 pm
Tsaraine wrote:Somewhere in Philadelphia, one school administrator has just smacked another school administrator upside the head. "Damnit, Jenkins! I told you we should just have gone with chastity belts!"
Huntertopia wrote:95% of all teens would cry if Justin Bieber was jumped and killed. 4% would laugh at his dead corpse. If you are the 1% that jumped him, copy and paste this in your sig.
by Techno-Soviet » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:32 pm
Triangle Major:
- Offense
- Defense
- Mobility
Triangle Minor:
- Communication
- Countermeasures
- Covertness
Specializations:
- Information Science
- Energy Physics
- Materials Engineering
- Biotechnology
- Nucleonics
- Gravitonics
- Reality Alteration
by Sskiss » Thu Sep 03, 2009 6:54 am
[/quote]Quote-The Great Dinosaurian Empire of Sskiss wrote:Triangle Major:
- Defense
- Mobility
- Offense
Triangle Minor:
- Covertness
- Countermeasures
- Communication
Specializations:
- Materials Engineering
- Gravitonics
- Nucleonics
- Biotechnology
- Energy Physics
- Information Science
- Reality Alteration
by Belschaft » Thu Sep 03, 2009 7:31 am
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