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by Eireann Fae » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:16 pm
by Burninati0n » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:42 am
by Keronians » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:25 am
BURNINATI0N wrote:It's almost universally accepted that during times of war, the threat to national security can be so great that some of the rights that citizens otherwise have must be temporarily suspended.
You could add a clause allowing nations to conscript people to the army in times of crisis so that people might actually feel compelled to vote for it.
by Eireann Fae » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:08 am
by Quelesh » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:26 am
1a. If a member nation is forced to defend their sovereignty from an invading aggressor, citizens of that nation may be compelled to defend their nation, onlyfromwithin their nation's borders and only to the extent necessary to repel the invasion.
by Linux and the X » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:38 am
Eireann Fae wrote:1a. If a member nation is forced to defend their sovereignty from an aggressor, citizens of that nation may be compelled to defend their nation, only from within their nation's borders.
by Eireann Fae » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:02 pm
by Linux and the X » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:21 pm
Eireann Fae wrote:Alexandra smiles at Delegate Yadoru, and writes the clause as suggested. Rowan starts another tally, and starts posting the results for all to see. The elder girl addresses the Ambassadors from Quelesh and Linux and the X. "Thank you for your suggestions, Delegate, both in the wording of the clause and when to use it. Would her altered wording be more palatable to your tastes, Ambassador?" She directs the question at the Linuxian, not really expecting Fred to go for it, but hoping for the best, nonetheless.
by Eireann Fae » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:26 pm
Linux and the X wrote:For those who believe that this will hurt their nations' ability to protect itself... are your nations really so horrible that you cannot assemble a fully-voluntary protective force?
by Linux and the X » Sat Jan 22, 2011 2:36 pm
Eireann Fae wrote:Linux and the X wrote:For those who believe that this will hurt their nations' ability to protect itself... are your nations really so horrible that you cannot assemble a fully-voluntary protective force?
Alexandra smiles grimly as she responds, "I feel you there, Ambassador. That's a point we've tried to make repeatedly throughout the debate. Your objection is noted - am I accurate in assuming that you feel more strongly for 'Opposed' than 'Add later'? I'd like for our little tally here to remain as accurate as possible." Her smile lightening a little, the girl gestures to the note attached to the front of their desk.
(OOC: By which I mean the first post :-)
by Ossitania » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:01 pm
Linux and the X wrote:An accurate assumption indeed. We don't wish to encode in law that nations have a right to force their citizens to participate in murder.
by Linux and the X » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:06 pm
Ossitania wrote:Linux and the X wrote:An accurate assumption indeed. We don't wish to encode in law that nations have a right to force their citizens to participate in murder.
A quick question for the ambassador from Linux and the X; why is it that if an individual kills someone who threatens his bodily sovereignty out of necessity, it is self-defense, but if a nation kills those who threatens its national sovereignty out of necessity, it is murder?
Furthermore, what if there are those who would gladly fight for their country but can't because they don't meet medical requirements, like the disable and the elderly? Should they be condemned to being killed by a hostile invasion force because others don't want to fight? Perhaps more generally, even, why should those who want to fight to defend their country be condemned to potential destruction by the choices of others?
by Ossitania » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:33 pm
Linux and the X wrote:In one instance the decision is made by the actor and in the other by the government.
Linux and the X wrote:Um, what?
by Eireann Fae » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:36 pm
by Ossitania » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:41 pm
Eireann Fae wrote:Alexandra conspicuously coughs a little, feigns surprise when a few people look at her, then rises and faces the Ossitanian Ambassador. "Well, since I have a few peoples' attention anyway, would you mind if I fielded the questions? You tried to make a comparison between an individual being forced to kill in self-defense and a nation doing what you proposed to be the same thing. I'm here to tell you that there is a fundamental difference between an individual and a nation. Your argument may hold true in some cultures - I understand some insects, at the most basic level, rely on a hive-mind for the good of their society. Highly advanced telepathic societies may be comprised of intrinsically linked individuals, who do rely on one another. In such an instance, I expect they would voluntarily take care of one of their own - if not on a moral level, than on an instinctual, survivalist level. However, the majority of nations are not like this."
"A nation is comprised, as we both know, of many individuals. A fact that is also almost universal is that crime happens. Against other people. Individuals, even bound by society, hold no natural, instinctual need to protect their fellows. I am an individual being - I am not Eireann Fae, nor am I the nation I happened to be born in. I would fight for the former - to the death. For the place my parents happened to be from? Let it burn. I, as an individual, am free to make that decision. A nation is not an individual - it should not make this decision. A collection of loose individuals that happen to have been brought into this world in close proximity does not necessarily have to defend its status as a collection. The individuals, if the collection is destroyed, are still free to make that choice in the future, and suffer whatever consequences their decision, as an individual may bring."
"Too long, didn't listen?" The girl smiles. "A man has free will to defend or not defend his own bodily sovereignty as he will. A nation does not. A nation has a select few individuals, in most cases, that ask other individuals to fight for them. If their cause is righteous, they may earn the support of the populace. But no individual should be forced to kill in the name of a collective - especially when some or many in that collective have wronged him or their fellow citizens, or would if given the opportunity. Not every individual feels that their 'nation' is worth fighting for. No individual ought to be forced to kill for a nation. Or die for one, for that matter."
Alexandra closes her eyes and lowers her head, taking on a more solemn tone as she continues. "It's unfortunate that the elderly and infirm who would fight for their nation but can't may see their beloved nation fall under the heel of foreign boots. But your grandmother has no more right to ask me to fight for her than I have to ask of her the same. If I do not think the people in my nation are worth defending, that should be my choice. If I am infirm and cannot fight, I'm sure I'd find some way to contribute, personally, to the war effort." She opens her eyes and locks them with those of the Ossitanian Ambassador. "We have made an offer, Ambassador, allowing nations to compel their subjects to defend their nation within their borders. Right now, I plan to offer the concession in a future version should the first one fail. Would such a provision do more to gain your sympathy, and support? I have argued at length supporting the spirit of this proposal, and surely you know how much this concession would pain me. Surely you may find it appealing."
As Alexandra smiles at the Ambassador, Rowan rises to her feet and addresses the same man. "Also, how do you feel about 'physical injury' in place of 'harm, pain'? Just curious."
by Quelesh » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:02 pm
Ossitania wrote:I'm arguing for the right to compel the citizens of a nation to defend the lives of other citizens.
by Ossitania » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:12 pm
Quelesh wrote:So you think a state should be able to force Person A to kill Person B in order to save Person C?
What if I'd rather Person C die than Person B? More likely, what if, while Person C's death would distress me, I'm not willing to kill for him? Die for him, perhaps, but not kill for him. My decision regarding whether or not I'm willing to kill to save Person C is a highly personal ethical decision; the state has no right to hold a gun to my head.
by Octopucta » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:18 pm
Ossitania wrote:Quelesh wrote:So you think a state should be able to force Person A to kill Person B in order to save Person C?
What if I'd rather Person C die than Person B? More likely, what if, while Person C's death would distress me, I'm not willing to kill for him? Die for him, perhaps, but not kill for him. My decision regarding whether or not I'm willing to kill to save Person C is a highly personal ethical decision; the state has no right to hold a gun to my head.
This oversimplifies the scenario to a ridiculous extent.
First of all, Person A is killing Person B because Person B is going to kill Person C.
Second of all, I'm aware that such a decision is a highly personal ethical decision, I'm just not agreeing that that highly personal ethical decision should be made at the cost of lives.
by Ossitania » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:50 pm
Octopucta wrote:Ossitania wrote:
This oversimplifies the scenario to a ridiculous extent.
First of all, Person A is killing Person B because Person B is going to kill Person C.
Second of all, I'm aware that such a decision is a highly personal ethical decision, I'm just not agreeing that that highly personal ethical decision should be made at the cost of lives.
Actually, Person A is killing Person B because Person B would is going to kill both A and C.
by Sanctaria » Sun Jan 23, 2011 8:14 pm
Eireann Fae wrote:RECOGNIZING that there are professions where one may be called upon to cause harm,
Eireann Fae wrote:REALIZING that there are those who have no objection to perform such duties,
Eireann Fae wrote:ALSO REALIZING that there are those who do have such an objection,
Eireann Fae wrote:HEREBY MANDATES;
1. No inhabitant of a member nation shall be compelled, for any reason, to inflict harm, pain or death on any other sentient being.1
2. No inhabitant of a member nation shall be persecuted, prosecuted, or punished for refusal to inflict harm, pain or death.2
3. This resolution does not affect the ability of inhabitants of member nations to take on jobs wherein they may inflict harm, pain or death of their own volition.3
by Eireann Fae » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:49 pm
by Sanctaria » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:56 pm
Eireann Fae wrote:Alexandra smiles as she rises to address the concerns of the Sanctarian Ambassador's concerns. "Actually, I had no specific profession in mind when drafting this proposal. The military certainly is one field of affected professions, but so are law enforcement, medical practitioners, and even professional athletes and veterinarians. 'Physical injury' would affect surgeons more than 'harm' would - if the temporary damage caused by surgical tools is for the greater health of the patient, it can be said that this is not 'harmful' to said patient. Our primary concern regarding surgeons would be if they were compelled to use their knowledge to inflict pain on prisoners or whatever. Surely if they wish to practice surgery, there is no way that this resolution would stop them. But if somebody is being forced to perform surgery, well, I just hope I'm not the one under the knife..."
Eireann Fae wrote:The girl sighs as the Sanctarian calls her bill a 'new C/O resolution'. "No, it is not a new conscientious objector resolution. This proposal is not so narrow, and in fact, a new clause allowing forced military service is currently up for debate. The purpose of this resolution is to stop member nations from compelling any individual, in any field of work, from doing harm. The objection is to 'inflicting harm, pain or death'. It is not to serving in the military."
Eireann Fae wrote:"If someone is compelled by 'their own mind', then that is the choice they made, and they should live with it. If the proposal is not clear enough on the matter, perhaps the wording could be changed to '...shall be compelled by another...'? Now that I think about it, that does sound like a good change. Just confirm the wording and I'll put it in writing."
Eireann Fae wrote:Alexandra smiles, and moves on to his second issue with the active clauses. "I'm sorry, but I do not believe anybody should be compelled to defend the life of another, even if all it would take is a scream for help. I believe everybody should take care of their fellow beings, but I would not obligate them to. Such situations may be traumatizing enough without pressing charges for not putting oneself in danger to save another."
by Eireann Fae » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:18 pm
by Sanctaria » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:27 pm
Eireann Fae wrote:Alexandra writes in the changes to the proposal as Rowan rises to address the Sanctarian Ambassador again. "Harm extends to medical professionals, Ambassador. We just find it difficult to believe that after years of training and acquiring the socially lucrative position of respected healer that they would suddenly object to the preservation of life if a little pain happened to be inflicted along the way. Surgeons and vets would be protected by this resolution, to put a finer point on it. Do you have a suggestion for better wording?"
by Quelesh » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:25 am
Eireann Fae wrote:1. No inhabitant of a member nation shall be compelled by another, for any reason, to inflict harm, pain or death on any other sentient being.
Sanctaria wrote:I'm quite sure that you're probably referring to those in the armed forces, but I think you should also consider those in the medical profession. If so, I'm not sure harm is the correct term to be used. Yes, surgeons are required to cut open people to "fix" them, for lack of a better word, but are they harming the person? Some clarification here, I think.
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