PASSED: Liberate belgium

[Northern Chittowa]

Yeah I'm not forgetting that it takes alot of support to get these proposals through. That's at the forefront of my thoughts.

You think invasion-griefing is a problem, I don't see it as a problem - it's a mechanic of the game I read and extrapolated from in the FAQ just before I decided to sign up to NS.

Yeah the idea of influence was indeed to get rid of griefing but it ended up legalising it. Liberation is in its early stages like you say, but personally I can forsee the same kind of paradox arising which I've just mentioned - liberations won't be so liberating. They will end up being be the complete opposite and will be an imposition in numerous instances all in the name of liberation.

Fair enough, i guess we will just have to agree to disagree on this instance! =P

Also, while im currently the leader of the FRA and already knew about this operation, i just want to say a huge well done to everyone who was involved. It is a testament to defender resolve that we managed to free a region which was on the brink of destruction.

I also want to echo what Nai said about the military actions and that it should not hide the significance of the liberation proposal, and ones like it. It served a huge purpose, showing the natives, invaders and the rest of NS that regions like this will no longer be left to their fate, but will be fought for, until the bitter end.

[Kapellen]

The Free Land of Kapellen, ejected from Belgium, extends its gratitude to all nations who helped to liberate Belgium! [OOC: we only have a vague idea of the kind of game these defenders are playing...]

We notice that the password is still in place. Maybe it is a good idea to leave it in place until it is automatically removed by the WA resolution? This way, the WA members still will feel that the WA might be somewhat useful...

Lars Björkson, Kapellen representative, who can't wait to see the lovely green grass and industrial complexes of Belgium again

[Independent Systems -]

Due to recent events, we withdraw our recommendation of vote on this resolution.

We wish to note that at this time, the vote stands at 2,484 votes for, 446 votes against.

[Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Current Resident, Belgium

Isn't this hypocritical? Now that the defenders have the region, it would be good to keep the password? Then they are no better than invaders.

[Mexar]

Due to recent events, we withdraw our recommendation of vote on this resolution.

We wish to note that at this time, the vote stands at 2,484 votes for, 446 votes against.

[Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Current Resident, Belgium

Isn't this hypocritical? Now that the defenders have the region, it would be good to keep the password? Then they are no better than invaders.

The problem isn't the password. The problem is what the password was being used for. I see no hypocrisy.

[Vinoslavia]

Due to recent events, we withdraw our recommendation of vote on this resolution.

We wish to note that at this time, the vote stands at 2,484 votes for, 446 votes against.

[Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Current Resident, Belgium

Isn't this hypocritical? Now that the defenders have the region, it would be good to keep the password? Then they are no better than invaders.

Well said. They're now talking like Joseph Stalin and are defending a password protected region. Thank god that pathetic bill is now going to work against the hypocrites.

[Kleinekatzen]

Having no love for invaders, We have cast for this issue once it came before the WA.

We will watch how things turn out should this issue be passed. I only hope that this type of proposal doesn't get abused by would be invaders. As such we must remind all Delegates to carefully check to see if a region really has been invaded and not simply protecting themselves from invaders.

However it seems the region has been liberated so we now ponder what will happen when the issue passes in the WA

[Veilyonia]

Last night, belgium was liberated by defender regions. As this completely changes the circumstances, I will be changing my vote to AGAINST. This resolution will now fail to bring about what it originally intended, and will only leave belgium vulnerable to future attacks. I urge all who had previously voted FOR to change their vote for this reason.

[Felasia]

With regards to Vinoslavia and Independent Systems - comment that this resolution that lifted the password of the region should continue even with the change of hand of delegacy to the native (not defender) hands.

It's important that first of all, you should understand the purpose of this SC resolution as outlined in the document itself. It clearly stated that this "clearing" of password is a result of the locking of the region by Macedon aganist the natives wishes, but now that the event has change and the native had regain the region then the resolution's intention itself is no longer valid and can no longer be apply to support the action that they deemed to be needed for the WA to take. With that in mind, I see absolutely no reason for this resolution to continue as it's objective is already finished.

Of course, you are welcome to create a resolution demanding the lift of password and allow this griefers (Since I know several raiders and Macedon don't deserve to be one.) to retake the region then please do so. It would be interesting to see the result of the vote on that "pathetic" (As you call it.) resolution.

[Martyrdoom]

Due to recent events, we withdraw our recommendation of vote on this resolution.

We wish to note that at this time, the vote stands at 2,484 votes for, 446 votes against.

[Lord] Michael Evif
Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Current Resident, Belgium

Isn't this hypocritical? Now that the defenders have the region, it would be good to keep the password? Then they are no better than invaders.

The problem isn't the password. The problem is what the password was being used for. I see no hypocrisy.

I do. The password is being used to restrict free-entry, the very thing natives and their watchdogs wanted to nominally achieve in the first place with the liberation. Now everyone but Belgium natives are being kicked out (even benign newcomers will be kicked as they are not natives, former natives or defenders from the successful organisations as I read on the WFE and RMB). Now we are actually going to see votes against the liberation so as to the keep the password on, which given the lobby will be successful OR the liberation proposal will go through and the password removed but then a repeal will succeed in allowing the re-institution of the password.

[Quintessence of Dust]

With that in mind, I see absolutely no reason for this resolution to continue as it's objective is already finished.

How about this one: moderators can't remove a resolution once it goes to vote.

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

With that in mind, I see absolutely no reason for this resolution to continue as it's objective is already finished.

Then someone had better start telegraming all those delegates who have voted for and ask them to change their votes. Either that or start writing "Repeal Liberate belgium" because this seems certain to pass. Once it passes the current native/defender imposed password will be removed and it will become impossible to password the region.

[Felasia]

@Quintessence of Dust and Mad Sheep Railgun

I'm not even sure what the mod can or can't do. They did clear out the UN and create the WA once. Maybe they won't clear it and someone will needs to write a repeal, but I'm just merely pointing out that the resolution is no longer "valid" according to the written words so maybe the mod should take that into consideration?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what is going to happen next.

[Mad Sheep Railgun]

@Quintessence of Dust and Mad Sheep Railgun

I'm not even sure what the mod can or can't do. They did clear out the UN and create the WA once. Maybe they won't clear it and someone will needs to write a repeal, but I'm just merely pointing out that the resolution is no longer "valid" according to the written words so maybe the mod should take that into consideration?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what is going to happen next.

It doesn't matter if it's "valid" now or not. Once a resolution is at vote it cannot be removed.

[Sirocco]

It's gonna be up to the WA to clear up this mess, guys. We're not your janitors.

[Martyrdoom]

@Quintessence of Dust and Mad Sheep Railgun

I'm not even sure what the mod can or can't do. They did clear out the UN and create the WA once. Maybe they won't clear it and someone will needs to write a repeal, but I'm just merely pointing out that the resolution is no longer "valid" according to the written words so maybe the mod should take that into consideration?

Anyway, it will be interesting to see what is going to happen next.

It is still valid since "Delegate-imposed barriers to free entry in a region" are still in effect.

[Felasia]

@Sirrocco

Well, pfft. I guess I better start telegramming.

Anyway, I have no problem if the region is going to be open and have no password. I'm sure any griefers that try to take the region in the future will have a great time trying to permanently hold the region without it.

And yeah, I guess we needs to depend on ourself like we always have.

[West-Flanders]

Although the liberation-resolution will restrict our options to password our region, it will also illiminate the option of possible invaders to quickly seal of the region. We'ld have to make a choice between the two options.

For the moment, let's wait and see what the liberation resolution brings. Save your trouble in telegramming everyone to change their vote. If we change our minds, we can always draft a repeal.

[Numero Capitan]

Those throwing the word "hypocrisy" about need to get their facts straight. Defenders do not control the region now, natives do and natives opted to change the password to one that the invaders do not know so that they cannot slip puppets back into the region whilst the natives return. Yes the resolution will pass and I'm sure the natives will be happy to return to being an open region without a password but first they need to sort some security matters out.

I believe in regional sovereignty and I think the natives have every right to have a password imposed at the moment. The rules regarding ejection currently do not affect innocent new players who want to join the region because they cannot enter due to this password. They could always join the holding region of "Belgie" which proudly states that "België welcomes all visitors, travellers, diplomants and everyone who dislikes griefing."

[Urgench]

Although the liberation-resolution will restrict our options to password our region, it will also illiminate the option of possible invaders to quickly seal of the region. We'ld have to make a choice between the two options.

For the moment, let's wait and see what the liberation resolution brings. Save your trouble in telegramming everyone to change their vote. If we change our minds, we can always draft a repeal.

You want the WA to waste more of its time on this now non-issue just in case you change your mind ?

[West-Flanders]

Although the liberation-resolution will restrict our options to password our region, it will also illiminate the option of possible invaders to quickly seal of the region. We'ld have to make a choice between the two options.

For the moment, let's wait and see what the liberation resolution brings. Save your trouble in telegramming everyone to change their vote. If we change our minds, we can always draft a repeal.

You want the WA to waste more of its time on this now non-issue just in case you change your mind ?

Please have some consideratoin yes, it all happened rather sudden and unexpected, so we have had little time to thoroughly discuss all options among Belgium-ites. Like I said, we have to make a choice between loosing the option of being able to set a password, and taking away the option of possible invaders to set an invisible password. For the moment we chose the first. But for example if we'ld like to refound the region, we'll need to have a password first to lock it down and move to anothe region,... In that case we'ld have to ask for a repeal.

[Urgench]

Although the liberation-resolution will restrict our options to password our region, it will also illiminate the option of possible invaders to quickly seal of the region. We'ld have to make a choice between the two options.

For the moment, let's wait and see what the liberation resolution brings. Save your trouble in telegramming everyone to change their vote. If we change our minds, we can always draft a repeal.

You want the WA to waste more of its time on this now non-issue just in case you change your mind ?

Please have some consideratoin yes, it all happened rather sudden and unexpected, so we have had little time to thoroughly discuss all options among Belgium-ites. Like I said, we have to make a choice between loosing the option of being able to set a password, and taking away the option of possible invaders to set an invisible password. For the moment we chose the first. But for example if we'ld like to refound the region, we'll need to have a password first to lock it down and move to anothe region,... In that case we'ld have to ask for a repeal.

Right OK, you want the WA on hold while your region sorts out its business ( stuff which you've had plenty of time to come to a decision about BTW ), so what about other regions which need liberating ? Are they just supposed to hang on while you guys get your act together ?

You want the WA to have some consideration, how about showing some consideration for the fact that the SC wasn't invented to solve all of Belgium's problems.

Oh and why would you need a repeal if your going to go a refound a region ? Surely that obviates this whole process no ?

[Riemstagrad]

we don't want the WA on hold. this resolution will be up for voting for another 2 days, if we want it or not. West-flanders just said that he didn't want to change the voting-advice yet. that's all.

[Urgench]

we don't want the WA on hold. this resolution will be up for voting for another 2 days, if we want it or not. West-flanders just said that he didn't want to change the voting-advice yet. that's all.

If you'd made up your minds what you wanted the SC to do, you could be campaigning for whatever vote you wanted, as it is your saying "we don't know what we want right now so we may all have to re-visit this if we right a repeal". Decide what your doing and then we wont have to waste our time with a repeal vote.

What your currently asking for is an abuse of process.

[The Sedge]

Have some consideration for the natives. None of them were informed about our liberation prior to it happening, and I imagine that most of them were dedicating their time to working out a way of liberating the region after the resolution passed (and campaigning to get the resolution passed). Its an important decision as to what they do next, and since West-Flanders probably wants to consult as many natives as possible before a decision is made, it will take time.

[Urgench]

Have some consideration for the natives. None of them were informed about our liberation prior to it happening, and I imagine that most of them were dedicating their time to working out a way of liberating the region after the resolution passed (and campaigning to get the resolution passed). Its an important decision as to what they do next, and since West-Flanders probably wants to consult as many natives as possible before a decision is made, it will take time.

They've had loads of time to organise themselves, how about we show some consideration for the "natives" of other regions which need liberating and not demand that the WA waste its time cleaning up for Belgium ?